January 2004 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Vengeance Libertarianism
by Freematt357＠aol.com 05 Jan '04

05 Jan '04

In a message dated 12/31/2003 4:44:34 AM Eastern Standard Time, jya(a)pipeline.com writes: > Nowhere in Tim's spew is the recognition that the largest > beneficiaries of government favoritism are corporations and > wealthy individuals like himself Government favoritism? It sounds like you don't believe a raising tide lifts all ships. Tim is entitled to keep the wealth he has earned, when it's taken its called stealing. > The rich fear the poor, and rightly so, for they know who pays > for their perks. What commie nonsense. > Wasn't it a leftist who coined Goldwater's most memorable > phrase? > The libertarian Karl Hess wrote most of Goldwater's speeches, but the quote you mention was one popularized by Ben Franklin who in turn was using an unattributed Latin quote. Regards, Matt Gaylor-

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Cypherpunks List Info
by cpunk＠lne.com 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

Cypherpunks Mailing List Information Last updated: Oct 13, 2003 This message is also available at http://www.lne.com/cpunk Instructions on unsubscribing from the list can be found below. 0. Introduction The Cypherpunks mailing list is a mailing list for discussing cryptography and its effect on society. It is not a moderated list (but see exceptions below) and the list operators are not responsible for the list content. Cypherpunks is a distributed mailing list. A subscriber can subscribe to one node of the list and thereby participate on the full list. Each node (called a "Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer", although they are not related to anonymous remailers) exchanges messages with the other nodes in addition to sending messages to its subscribers. A message posted to one node will be received by the list subscribers on the other nodes, and vice-versa. 1. 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Re: Sources and Sinks
by Nostradumbass＠SAFe-mail.net 04 Jan '04

04 Jan '04

From: bgt <bgt(a)chrootlabs.org> > On Sat, 2004-01-03 at 07:09, Michael Kalus wrote: > > > > Where there is no governmental police force, their is demand for > > > private enforcement. And you know what? They regularly do their jobs > > > better than the police. > > > > Of course there is no oversight body, so if they use "excessive force" > > well, It's all part of doing business and after all they didn't smash > > YOUR skull so what do you care, right? > > The only necessary "oversight body" is the courts. Both public and > private police (should) operate under the Rule of Law just like everyone > else. As with the public police, if private police have public > perception problems related to excessive force, abuse of power, or > whatever, they may opt to use a third-party interest to do > "self-policing" by fining, firing, etc (much like pro sports > organizations do... contractually). This is strictly a business > management decision however, the only "legal" oversight should be > the court. Police (public or private) should be judged and punished > (in the legal sense) in the same way any other citizen is. http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm Seton Hall Constitutional L.J. 2001, 685 ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL? Roger Roots* ABSTRACT Police work is often lionized by jurists and scholars who claim to employ "textualist" and "originalist" methods of constitutional interpretation. Yet professional police were unknown to the United States in 1789, and first appeared in America almost a half-century after the Constitution's ratification. The Framers contemplated law enforcement as the duty of mostly private citizens, along with a few constables and sheriffs who could be called upon when necessary. This article marshals extensive historical and legal evidence to show that modern policing is in many ways inconsistent with the original intent of America's founding documents. The author argues that the growth of modern policing has substantially empowered the state in a way the Framers would regard as abhorrent to their foremost principles.

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Alt.cypherpunks will be where I do most of my posting
by Tim May 03 Jan '04

03 Jan '04

On Jan 2, 2004, at 1:03 PM, someone wrote: > On Fri, 2004-01-02 at 13:18, Tim May wrote: >> Second of the items lne.com never sent to the list (that I have seen, >> 9-10 hours later). > > I saw both articles, both the originals and the reposts, on the LNE > feed. I didn't, however, get the original of either on the pro-ns feed, > but I saw the reposts on pro-ns. > > I subscribed to pro-ns after Eric M's announcement, but it seems to > miss > a lot of articles that I get from LNE. Still searching for a reliable > feed which cuts out the Australian Jackass and other noise posts. Several operators of Cypherpunks nodes have gotten tired of the topic or the running of nodes and have moved on to other things. Even those still running nodes rarely have anything to post themselves. Those remaining on the remaining nodes, or at least the ones posting, are mainly eurotrash lefties and American collectivists who just don't get it. As none of the alternatives to lne.com are what I'm looking for in a node, I expect to do most of my future posting to alt.cypherpunks. This newsgroup has been in existence for a bunch of years and periodically gets interesting threads. A few sock puppets have been spamming it, but filters are readily available to screen out the crud. The advantage of a newsgroup is that all the distribution and propagation issues are handled more or less automagically, The disadvantages are well-known, but are not much worse than with some of today's nodes (subject to long delays, dropped articles, etc.). Another advantage is that the address will be more or less known to anyone, at all times. Also, no "friendly chats" by Feebs with the operators of a site. And virtually no chance of shutting down a newsgroup. --Tim May

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RE: So many statists...uh, who gives a crap?
by Tyler Durden 03 Jan '04

03 Jan '04

Tim May wrote... "I assume they figured that since they were using PGP to communicate with their fellow anti-capitalists, that crypto must be cool" Here's the question Tyler Durden has for you. Which is more important...annhiliation of the state, or getting a bunch of list subscribers to agree that annhiation of the state is a good thing? You yourself have claimed to be something of a "techno determinist". In other words, you've made a good case that Strong crypto will eventually lead to collapse of the state...people's BELIEF about the implications of strong crypto are largely irrelevant. "Eurotrash", "New York Collectivists" and so on should be given nice, big fat pat on the backs, so long as this will encourage proliferation of strong crypto. Who gives a crap what people BELIEVE? In fact, I'd argue that, if your beliefs prove to be correct, then "making people see the implications of strong crypto" is ultimately probably a bad thing...not everyone wants to wreck the state. Some people WANT to be able to boss others around (or at least want someone else to be doing this). Hell, probably most human beings in 2003 are in this category. -TD Me? I like the Protestant reformation analogy: I'm not convinced strong crypto will necessarily lead to destruction of the state, just like the reformation didn't lead to destruction of the Catholic church. However, in the long run, whatever emerges has got to be better than what we've got today. >From: Tim May <timcmay(a)got.net> >To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com >Subject: So many statists >Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 16:06:35 -0800 > >On Jan 3, 2004, at 3:01 PM, bgt wrote: >> >>(Jeez, I just recently got back onto this list after a several-year >>hiatus. How the hell did so many statists ever get the idea that >>ubiquitous cryptography would ever further their goals? Or are they >>just here to distract us with statism vs liberty type political >>debates so we can't get any real work done??) >> > >Most of those now posting (and maybe most of those subscribed, but I am >only speculating) are various eurotrash lefties and anti-globalist >activists who decided that "crypto is cool" after their anti-corporate, >anti-choice rallies in Seattle, Milano, and other cities shut down by the >Yippie marches and barricades. I assume they figured that since they were >using PGP to communicate with their fellow anti-capitalists, that crypto >must be cool (I'm not sure if they favor the negro term, "bad," or the >traditional term, "good," so I'll use the term of my generation, "cool.") > >Are they confused? Yep. > >Welcome to the Gen X and Gen Y (and soon) the Gen Z world. Crypto be bad, >dog! This nigga be bouncin'! > >I'm actually glad to see that Cypherpunks nodes are winding down, that we >no longer have monthly meetings, and that the Movement is ending. Better >that than to see it hijacked by the eurotrash lefties, New York >collectivists, and anti-globalist warriors against free trade. > > >--Tim May, Corralitos, California >Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; >perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." >--Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. _________________________________________________________________ Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

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School of the future
by Tyler Durden 03 Jan '04

03 Jan '04

Tim May wrote... "Put a partition down the middle of a school building. One side is "Blue," the other side is "Red." " Shit. This sounds a lot like my "school of the future" idea. Basically, in the inner cities the armories are converted into "schools", with a giant partition in the middle. On one side are self-learning stations and a small number of instructors. Kids can choose to go to this side of the partition whenever they want, or never. (BUT school is mandatory from 12 to 22, and big Soylent Green-type scoops scoop up the students every morning and dump them into the school.) The other side of the partition is basically a giant gymnasium. Guards with watercannon are stationed in the balcony to break up fights. At graduation, there's a trap door on the gymnasium side, that opens onto a slide leading directly to Rikers. In the extended version, the "schools" are located out in a gulag, and students live there from ages 10 to 24. There are two jobs in the schools, one is breaking rocks, which are imported from other schools, the other is making rocks in concrete molds, which are exported. Classrooms consist of a teacher behind a plexiglass wall, giving lessons over a loudspeaker that's cranked far higher than any kid could scream or yell. Thus, classroom noise is basically eliminated as a practical concern (the teacher might also have access to watercannon behind the plexiglass wall). As for teachers, the source is clear: those that fail to graduate must teach for a period of 10 to 15 years. -TD >From: Tim May <timcmay(a)got.net> >To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com >Subject: Re: Education Be For Whitey >Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 10:34:13 -0800 > >On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >>At 10:41 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >>>And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, >> >>One could close all public schools and voucher tomorrow. > >I came up with a plan which is workable immediately and which does not >require substantive changes: > >Put a partition down the middle of a school building. One side is "Blue," >the other side is "Red." > >Blue and Red have different academic orientations, different goals. What >the goals are and how they are set might arise in different ways, e.g., by >a vote of parents, or the backgrounds of the teachers in each, and so on. >Not so important. What is important is what follows. > > >As the Blue and Red sides evolve, with perhaps one focusing on academic >excellence and the other on "social skills," parents could move their >children between the sides (say, on a semester by semester basis, to reduce >thrashing). As the sizes of the Blue and Red sizes change, the partition >would be moved. > > >This gives "policy choice" within a particular school building, which is a >lot less expensive than busing students long distances to get to "magnet" >schools (science, performing arts, crack dealing, etc.). > > >--Tim May >"They played all kinds of games, kept the House in session all night, and >it was a very complicated bill. Maybe a handful of staffers actually read >it, but the bill definitely was not available to members before the vote." >--Rep. Ron Paul, TX, on how few Congresscritters saw the USA-PATRIOT Bill >before voting overwhelmingly to impose a police state _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our limited-time introductory offer for dial-up Internet access. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup

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Re: Education Be For Whitey
by Major Variola (ret) 03 Jan '04

03 Jan '04

At 10:41 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: >And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, One could close all public schools and voucher tomorrow. >I still have >the naivety to attempt discussing what kind of system (and realistically >reachable from today's world) might actually lift as many blacks and white >trailer trash out of their ghettos (in whatever form) and back into the >workforce... Simple. Take the infants and put them with parents who subscribe to a culture that values education and work. Then even govt schools won't damage them enought to crush them.

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If you drive, you're a slave (Re: Sources and Sinks)
by Major Variola (ret) 03 Jan '04

03 Jan '04

At 08:09 AM 1/3/04 -0500, Michael Kalus wrote: >Yes, the way this usually works is that the government builds the road, >then sells it to a private company for some money and then the upkeep >is handled by the company. > >It is rather seldom that someone builds a road for a business venture. Come visit SoCal some time. I'll show you some roads built as investments. Many of them. Sometimes, if they fail as investments ("hey, we're losing money, lets raise tolls"), the investors will sell to the govt ---the opposite of your assertion. But it shouldn't matter to a socialist like you: if I've driven on a taxpayer road, I'm therefore a slave to anyone's (or everyone's) 's need. Anyone who can convince a politicowhore to give them a slice, that is.

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Re: DoS-ing fatherland goons
by Major Variola (ret) 03 Jan '04

03 Jan '04

At 11:01 AM 1/3/04 +0100, privacy.at Anonymous Remailer wrote: >- Orchestrated telephone conversations using codewords ("thw worm will meet the apple on monday") > >- Ordering tens of almanacs, etc. WiFi-injected encrypted messages to select TLDs on the List (and beyond --Indonesia suffices). Got Chatter?

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Re: Education Be For Whitey
by Tyler Durden 02 Jan '04

02 Jan '04

Ah. Well, again no argument here. As for Asians in America, let's just say I can be considered an expert on that subject. No doubt the difference in success rate between Asians (and not just Asian Americans, but fresh-off-the-boat Chinese or Vietnamese) and blacks has become conspicuous in recent years, and I agree says a lot about what ISN'T being done, or taken advantage of in the US by some groups. And until the Liberatarian utopia you speak of comes to pass, I still have the naivety to attempt discussing what kind of system (and realistically reachable from today's world) might actually lift as many blacks and white trailer trash out of their ghettos (in whatever form) and back into the workforce... I'd argue that this isn't statist per se, as the state will continue to exist for at least a little while longer. Of course, it might be argued that any attempt at reforming the state is inherently statist, but I'm not convinced that a cataclysmic meltdown is necessary. It seems to me only reasonable to attempt to make things better, while the inevitable unfolds, if it will. Which brings me to a sideswipe at the vehement anti-statists on the board...if something like crypto-anarchy is ultimately inevitable, then why bother "outing" the statists? Instead, to further the anti-state goals, it might actually be far more expedient to encourage said statists in their use and proliferation of strong crypto, thereby speeding the inevitable through the very same vectors that seek to delay it. Meanwhile, why not at least try to match the social 1st and 2nd derivatives so to as minimize the bloodbath that could occur if things unfolded badly? Call this back-handed optimism if you will. -TD >From: "Major Variola (ret)" <mv(a)cdc.gov> >To: "cypherpunks(a)lne.com" <cypherpunks(a)lne.com> >Subject: Re: Education Be For Whitey >Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 17:07:52 -0800 > >At 04:58 PM 1/2/04 -0500, Tyler Durden wrote: > >Nah nah Variola...I don't think you're getting me here. Or maybe you >are... > >We're not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the >importance >of culture in valuing education, and how important education (aka >personal capitalism) >is. > >You're talking about different things -schools not removing disruptives, >and >differences in this policy in poor districts. > > >Now if you're saying that public schools shouldn't even >exist...well...OK, > >whatever. > >I don't know where you got that from, unless you're simply applying >libertarian >ideals (albeit a reasonable extrapolation for me). I would destroy >publicly administered >schools tomorrow, and put the money into competitive private schools, >aka >"vouchers". > >In the long term libertarian utopia, govt isn't involved in funding >(even lower) education of course, but I would put that last on my list >of reforms, and note >that eventually education can be funded in other ways. > >In the short term, no govt employee should teach; a >few govt accountants can write the vouchers. They shouldn't teach >because of >1. conflict of interest (in teaching history, civics) >2. govt shouldn't be in the business of running schools, even if >taxpayers continue to >fund it >3. govt (and uncompetitive school bureaucracy) is inefficient whatever >it does >4. govt curricula are swayed by politics, whereas with vouchers you can >decide how you want Columbus et al. portrayed. (This distinct from 1.) >5. 1st amendment conflicts (ie compelled speech, compelled reading) > >Obviously religious curricula cannot be payed for by vouchers. > >And practically, the state would have to assure that vouchers paid >are getting something for their money, esp. for home-schoolers, who >should get voucher $ too. That doesn't mean a fixed curricula, just >that you are literate and numerate by a reasonable age. _________________________________________________________________ Get reliable dial-up Internet access now with our limited-time introductory offer. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup

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