December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by alexlh＠yourchoice.nl 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In article <34302d8d.8163438(a)newshost.cyberramp.net> you wrote: [lots of ranting deleted] : Banning guns because criminals might use them equates to banning : encryption because criminals might use it. And if you really believe : that both should be banned, then perhaps you should be banned from : using oxygen, because criminals breath it too. You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point. So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing. Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe, where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else. In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or presidents. This sucks. We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain to you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think about getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the hands of an adversary are negligible. Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around, you're gonna end up with lots of people getting shot. Alex --- /// I dabble in techno-house and sometimes, /// I do that badass hip-hop thang... /// But the F U N K gets me every time!

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new in EFC's media archives - Mondex, crypto (fwd)
by Martin Janzen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones(a)insight.dcss.McMaster.CA) posted the following to the EFC mailing list: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New in EFC's media archives: 1. Plastic treasure ... not so smart after all http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/guardian.24sep97.html This article reports that a team in the Netherlands made a "successful attack" on a Mondex chip (Hitachi H8/3101) by activating a test mode in which the chip dumps its contents to a serial port. John Beric, security manager for Mondex simply says "I have never SEEN a report saying they have broken Mondex". (Is this plausible deniability?? ;-) The article also makes mention of EFC getting hassled by the National Bank of New Zealand over a leaked memo. In the mean time, Mondex is trying to ramp up deployment of its new chip, the Hitachi H8/3109, which (for the first time apparently) implements public key crypto. 2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html Some coverage of the "crypto" issue in the context of a major international privacy conference held in Montreal last week. EFC scored some coverage for its position statement on crypto: http://www.efc.ca/pages/crypto/policy.html including a quote in favour of strong crypto: "There is a far greater risk to individuals, businesses, and the government if we are unable to effectively prevent criminals from gaining unauthorized access to our records and communications." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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An e$Lab competitor?
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Now I know how the Wright Brothers felt when they found out about Langley and Bell... ;-). Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:37:44 -0700 From: jmuller(a)brobeck.com (John D. Muller) Subject: An e$Lab competitor? To: e$lab(a)vmeng.com Sender: <e$lab(a)vmeng.com> Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip 2.0.1 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=subscribe%20e$lab> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:requests@vmeng.com?subject=unsubscribe%20e$lab> From MecklerMedia's http:/www.internetnews.com E-Transaction Lab for Financial Firms Opens in NYC [October 1] New York City-based Transaction Information Systems (TIS), an integration and information technology consulting company, opened FLITE <http://www.flitelab.com>, an open software factory dedicated to building electronic commerce solutions for the financial industry. In addition to TIS, the founder of FLITE, there are approximately 20 member firms, including Digital Equipment Corp., ad agency Foote, Cone and Belding, IBM, Lotus Development Corp., Reuters, Sybase, and Visa. FLITE is physically located in the former home of the historic New York Lawyers' Club at 115 Broadway in downtown Manhattan. FLITE allows sales, marketing, and information technology executives to interact with a variety of online trading systems, 401(k) management products, three-dimensional visualizations of financial data, and other electronic commerce and interactive customer service solutions. "This one-of-a-kind software factory enables financial institutions to increase sales and market reach via the rapid deployment of their financial products through multiple distribution vehicles, including the Internet, kiosks, display cellular phones and TV sets," said Bob Gold, President of TIS. "In one place, they can experience and visualize more electronic commerce and customer service applications for the financial industry than anywhere else. FLITE's design process and electronic commerce tools allow us to roll out transactional Web sites in half the time and at half the cost of the industry average." FLITE is a working lab that financial institutions can use to produce innovative products. Marketing/sales executives use the facility to learn to think interactively and develop Internet strategies, build product prototypes rapidly and conduct focus groups. Technology staffs can use the facility for jointly developing interactive products with FLITE engineers, use FLITE's specialty rooms (user interface optimization, 3-D visualization and quality assurance testing), and get hands-on training and knowledge transfer. As a factory, FLITE has specialized machinery and tools for building transactional Web sites and delivering products through interactive distribution channels, TIS said. FLITE has a variety of hardware servers, workstations, laptops, kiosks, televisions, display phones, touchscreen monitors, and financial trading equipment. "FLITE combines the promise of new technology with the city's financial heritage," said Gold. "Unlike other companies who have put research and development facilities in the suburbs, TIS believes that its downtown location in the heart of Wall Street attracts the top talent in the industry and makes it accessible to financial industry executives." --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To >kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be >used at some point. Although guns are obviously designed for killing things, this does not mean that they will be used. This can be seen from the statistics. There are far fewer murders than there are guns. Almost all of them are never used for killing someone. You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and another does not. The situation is more stable if both people are armed. (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole society. You aren't, just part of it.) >So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a >lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing. Depends who they are. Bet the Dutch resistance made good use of their weaponry, eh? >In the US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, >many people would not think twice before shooting someone. This is simply untrue. TV and movies are not the best way to form an understanding of another country. >The result of this is that the number of people getting killed by >guns is enourmous, be they criminals, little kids, old grannies, or >presidents. I read recently that 9000 people a year die in the United States from food poisoning. This should be almost entirely preventable. Why isn't this a big political issue? Could it be that the people pushing gun control do not have entirely pure motives? Be aware that the gun control lobby has often used misleading statistics. For instance, you will hear a lot about "handgun deaths". It turns out that most of these are suicides. While undesirable, most people perceive a difference between somebody killing themselves and a nutcase doing his thing at a school. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDKPA5aWtjSmRH/5AQFgoAf7B3MxcsPsF1CHke4aaGHjERMCcmEt/4lk 9Z9l9qCD6zysodKlXX5W5qlpY6okE1LEFxMitb3royeBOqbxksj9t0b+/p0Py2Bl /lQYZ+Km6bsO/ooVMy5Ub+3W1XyqgYwoXPOoO7+6vOUMQijCmekm3Zquj8t5YY4M o8wq2p935GlXOu6efTxMSnRY5+r2SZDI4aWPIzHmXWqjMfUnIRVmmQ1WBQ2h1X2U 4BoTcKQAi7rEdC1UXI7kKtNO246lgyHj/P+G6H645iRdgFAyjFKmyLzM+6ai8Bpq oE5yWnpfq4nTQ7WhdNe8XmKFQY+sxD4xhFzcNkxR1+3yzShK9shSLg== =sHEL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Cynthia Brown wrote: >On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote: >> This sucks. > >I agree wholeheartedly. >IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the >"bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health >care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids >what a productive lifestyle looks like. Of course you agree wholeheartedly, you are an exploiter. It is wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDLA95aWtjSmRH/5AQFykwf+Nh/3MKqyK30Tc90Wj0MCvKLvyZYzkKiZ KV/H8+7Of5hPh0pUEZNDBxr7A3x02+0jhYwJymzYcHJuXAP0+RmXtWRyAWz9TFE3 AB23HgLODI2IrsD1NvlwbjHQzpLVqfT99QEYIaolZScilc5hw1uZV8dAK4SjXDnZ +K4QG3RZpAxpKZUSWduErtJ+8JAzavH4ybeR95hO2uY2na1ckmwWm39ERg+u+N4k rP2wd3E4IQ7XWbPCrHWEPoDs4PHMg09lK/Y+fv9ejE8+ehq/YeO1WYtZtlaCURtU CE7JXH4b60+NmDuISybaMWdv70IFOneukz64zasAT1wp9w4Mxqjw7Q== =VYI9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire >world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that >regard. I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the whole world, not just Europe. >And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against >guided missiles and mortar fire. It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed. >And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual >arguments against gun control. The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth. "To defend yourself in general" is commonly used. War, oppressive government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations in which people need their weapons, even in the United States. >> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this >> fantasy land where everyone loves one another and would never think >> of killing someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe. > >Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over >there. You mean like the former Yugoslavia? Or do you mean like the parts of Europe where people are not slaughtering each other at the moment? I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment among the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other European countries. For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because when they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police. The Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to know them a little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the grudge. With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen quickly, even if things seem mellow right now. And these little resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in Europe than just between the Dutchies and the Germans. Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch informers, but there were even Dutch SS units. I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist in a large portion of the population of even a nice country. It is unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed. Let's turn to the Western Hemisphere: El Salvador. During much of the 1980s, the U.S. government supported groups of people in El Salvador who were sending out death squads to murder their suspected opponents. The U.S. certainly acquiesced in this activity - of this there is no doubt. But, it is not unlikely the U.S. was more directly involved. (Only fifteen years earlier the U.S. was doing the same thing in Vietnam.) What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were adequately armed? One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him or his family. At least, you wouldn't see it twice. Likewise, when the communist guerrillas were forcing (maybe) the peasantry to support them, the peasants would have no need to cooperate unwillingly if they were well armed. People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims, or slaves. That is desirable. Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown for murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to those of us who live in the U.S. It is unlikely that these tactics won't be used here were there a serious political struggle and a disarmed population. An issue that might possibly blossom into such a political struggle is mass surveillance. While the mass media is, for the most part, giving everything the government's spin, and while large numbers of Congressmen and other denizens of Washington, D.C. think it's a good idea, the bulk of the population is not happy about this at all. They can read the writing on the wall. The potential for conflict between the political class, which has a long history of murder and even assassination, and the American people exists right now. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDKo45aWtjSmRH/5AQG/KAf/ViGabpr8OnP2UYZ/CZAKQ4czRzVlx7Az Dcb0mqxnhNmQ7o5YJQlodbrmI3cEbXb0/YeTaX9r2pmxhtz06hekCTa28ZoycspB aCzoWLuZW1et9zNTYQzfDADLPPoLDizHG/zHPpWH97t/8NgQOXmQXS1qccNkylMl LghngUR+2YXlmB0omNLy1e6hQCzjkgUlxYE5T5Aimn0WpTmHk4yn9HwOdGXC2gvU idX5qlQUkwhxuEqOgN/p++tzv22Fi8W3RaIusrMzJV2dU3326IEwsJzFY3UI8xh2 M1bZCWTA6TlBBJoqbugt4gqvhAT0/yH6kJdLjDdYlKsEUVM3nfctfQ== =STNd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan writes: >So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal >wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with >mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance, >generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples >too. > >Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_, >_Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman, >Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES. I'd figure pretty much anything from Bamford's _The Puzzle Palace_ would work, but the stuff on Operation Shamrock (interception of cable traffic) might be of particular interest. Also the parts about "intelligence sharing" with the Brits and Australians -- just because the NSA can't tap it doesn't mean they can't get it from our "friends." No doubt the Men From Fort Meade have been as helpful in the other direction as well. A particularly nice detail about Shamrock is that the FBI was using the NSA to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance of "un-American" groups by using ELINT, which was -- of course -- "born classified." I'd cite details, but my Bamford seems to be MIA. Maybe the MIB came for it. . . Ratbert

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None
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

How good will it be to have total conformity? What will be left of singularity? And personality? And you and me? CM

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by The.Global.Lotto.Agency＠news.NetVision.net.il 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Your Listing on Yahoo
by search10＠earthlink.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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