December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
by Tyler Durden 23 Dec '03

23 Dec '03

Well, again you've WAY oversimplified things. Indeed, this oversimplification is curiously identical to US foregin policy mistakes. Ho Chi Min, like Mao, would take guns from anybody in order to get the job done. If that meant wearing a Soviet uniform for 15 minutes, then sobeit. Don't mistake that for Eastern-European-style Soviet block "governments". Was Ho Chi Min ultimately a dictator? Sure. A Soviet-style dictator? Well, I'd argue only nominally. I'd also argue that our post World War II betrayal of Ho had a lot to do with shoving him into the arms of the Soviets, just like with Mao. (But in neither case did the association stick.) The important notion is that, unlike in Europe, China and Vietnam never had anything resembling a democracy or Parliament or anything like that. They were still largely fuedal, agrarian societies that weren't really in a position to critically evaluate the implications of Soviet-style rulership (and in fact they probably viewed it as being merely a non-Monarchic version of what they'd always done). BUT...the Soviets were providing guns and money and we weren't. That both countries were really only externally Stalinst for a brief while (ie, a couple of decades) is evidenced by the fact that both economies are as about, in SOME ways, as free-wheeling and as capitalistic as exists these days. Of course, both are still certainly authoritarian and, depending on the subject, oppressive, but this has nothing to do with their politico-economic stance per se, as is now obvious. In other words, the moral of this story is that you can't merely graft on a western political philosophy--in this case Marxism--to cultures that have unbroken traditions dating back to the stone age. It may look 'Marxist' on the outside, but internally that transplant ain't going to take root. That US foreign policy in the far east in in Indo-China during most decades of the 20th century was a complete disaster was precisely due to the views you seem to hold. It's why we didn't back Mao when even though it was obvious BILLIONS of dollars were being siphoned away by Soong Tse-Vung and the Chiang regime...it's why we backed Lon Nol to overthrow Sihounouk (bringing in the Khmer rouge), and it's why we didn't back Ho even though he fought with us against the Japanese. Had we stood back from our prejudices, respected the soverignity of those nations, engaged and offered some guns in order for them to choose their OWN government, I'd bet the era of Soviet-style government in both China and Vietnam would have been much shorter, and in Cambodia it would have CERTAINLY never existed. In other words, YOU (and people with beliefs just like yours in the US government) are responsible for the spread of communism in the far east. Now you and your friends (including, I suspect, the guy who signs your paycheck) are going to do the same thing in the near east: you're going to force many ostensibly neutral nations into the Fundamentalist Islamic camp, because you just don't get it, and think we have the right to interfere. "Well, the Soviets did it and the liberal left said it was great, so that makes it right." Forget it. Stop saying this crap and use that brain. 9/11 sucked enough in this town...we don't need another. -TD >From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)minder.net >Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam. >Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:35:39 -0800 > > -- >On 22 Dec 2003 at 22:02, Tyler Durden wrote: > > If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really > > don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian > > history. > >He was not a KGB sock puppet. He was KGB. > >The indochinese communist party was run from a desk in Moscow, >and the guy behind that desk in Moscow was one Ho Chi Minh. > > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > tUqRWDkYAq3CLoQkZ14K0qF1d7QxbWlf6d2ZXjZs > 43Qc8nduD4tJh6uumE28HC7EsKfnNFvnGEYCCH0BO _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize

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[IP] Tracking devices required for hassle-free travel? (fwd from dave@farber.net)
by Eugen Leitl 23 Dec '03

23 Dec '03

----- Forwarded message from Dave Farber <dave(a)farber.net> -----

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Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam.
by Tyler Durden 23 Dec '03

23 Dec '03

James Donald wrote... "They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock puppet. " Uh...huh? You really get a lot of things mixed up. If you think Ho Chi Minh was a KGB sockpuppet then you really don't know anything about Vietnam, China, or East Asian history. Think of Ho Chi Min as, utlimately, a violent pragmatist...he was going to get his guns from whoever he could, and that's what he did. He also had Chinese guns and, during WWII, American guns (yes: We were allied with Ho Chi Minh against the Japanese during WWII). Likewise, you accused Saddam Hussein of being allied with bin Laden, which is also silly. In fact, bin Laden has regularly called for Saddam's death, and I see no reason to believe he wasn't serious. Likewise, your lambasting of Chomsky on the "Chomsky Dis" website also indicates huge and suspicious gaps in knowledge. I'm starting to connect the dots here: I dare you to read the name that signs your paycheck. -TD >From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com >Subject: Re: I am anti war. You stupid evil scum are pro Saddam. >Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:14:20 -0800 > > -- >On 22 Dec 2003 at 1:10, Tim May wrote: > > I, and many others, were against the war in Vietnam without > > being supporters of Ho Chi Minh or the Soviets or anyone of > > that ilk > >True, but amongst the vast mass chanting Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh, >one could no more discern principled opponents of the Vietnam >war, than one can today discern principled opponents of the >Iraqi war among the Americans worrying about poor little >victimized Saddam, and the mass of Europeans jumping for joy >over the fall of the two towers. > >Amidst the pro Saddam posters on this thread, many have come >rather close to chanting "Ho, Ho, Ho Chi Minh" -- for the >example the argument that the evil CIA deprived the third world >masses of their beloved socialism provided by benevolent >dictators, and the argument that the US "created' the Afghan >resistance -- and thus presumably every other resistance >movement against the Soviets. > > > Essentially _none_ of them were supporters of the Soviets or > > the North Vietnamese qua North Vietnamese.) > >Now I get to call you the pinko: > >They were supposedly supporters of the NLF, which they well >knew was a North Vietnamese sock puppet, and thus a KGB sock >puppet. And when that sock puppet was discarded to reveal the >iron fist of the NVA that had been moving its lips, none of >them were surprised or dismayed. Similarly Jane Fonda was >supposedly not a supporter of the North Vietnamese qua North >Vietnamese, yet without hesitation she lied about the condition >and treatment of the POWs she met, whom she depicted as >leniently treated war criminals. When some of those she lied >about returned home to speak the truth, she stuck to her >position, counter attacking them as hypocrites and liars, >denying that they had shown signs of starvation and torture. > >I find it strange that the speakers at your rally were so >remarkably different from the speakers at my rally -- >particularly when so many of the pro Saddam posters in this >thread sound like they are new nyms for the same people who >spoke at my rally. > >If any of your speakers really thought the NLF was something >other than a KGB sock puppet, they would have had posters of >the supposed NLF leader on their wall. Instead, not one of >these supposed supporters of the NLF blinked when the most of >the NLF vanished in the 1975 purge. > > > --digsig > James A. Donald > 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG > vgi7SNuqDzYgX5I5Cmd4QPW+QLDM2w78B+RO1o8f > 4oxwhPbCXdnYRp30H5XOTLwLfzQyCsQo15VgpDWYW _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads? Compare online deals from your local high-speed providers now. https://broadband.msn.com

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Trusted Computing = Kevlar Doors
by Major Variola (ret.) 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

When the Trust Computing Worm (tm) comes out, will anyone recognize it as a version of the jihadist pilot who uses the impenetrable aircraft door? Just wondering. And doesn't Tom Ridge look great in Orange?

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Humiliating the Conquered, Part II
by Eric Cordian 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

If you think it was embarrassing for the former regime in Iraq to see their fearless leader getting a public louse inspection, just wait until Christmas, when America again demonstrates it can walk the streets of Baghdad with impunity. Yesterday, the crew of WWE Smackdown arrived in Baghdad to set up for their special Christmas broadcast of Smackdown! "Live from Baghdad." "The Smackdown crew with Steve Austin arrived yesterday in Baghdad at the 28th U.S. Military Combat Support Hospital to hand out gift packages to troops and give t-shirts to those injured." "World Wrestling Entertainment in proud to present a special edition of SmackDown! from Baghdad on Christmas night. Join the Superstars of SmackDown! as they have the honor of competing in front of Americas troops in what should be an evening filled with action, excitement and emotion." Goodness, where are the Donkey Carts of Mass Destruction when they are really needed. :) -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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Re: U.S. in violation of Geneva convention?
by Tarapia Tapioco 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

Harmon Seaver wrote: > > This isn't a ski mask burglary. We KNOW Saddam ruled Iraq. > > We KNOW what crimes were committed. Simple syllogism. > > No we don't. We only know what the propaganda mills have told us. > Twenty years ago it was a different story. The propaganda mills were working for Saddam, not against him. <http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/04/1599076.php> "Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard - awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff." <http://www.techcentralstation.com/041103H.html> "It appears there is another, more troubling, reason Jordan decided not to report these hideous crimes until the regime was safely out of the way: CNN didn't want to lose its on-the-ground access to a big story." Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, and countless Iraqi refugees all report similar stories of widespread torture and murder. Is it your position that these are all propagandists? Dismissing as "propaganda" any reports that oppose your argument, while accepting as truth any claim that supports it, is simple intellectual dishonesty.

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UN using Satellite Photos to track Israeli Apartheid Wall
by Bill Stewart 22 Dec '03

22 Dec '03

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3334235.stm It's fun what you can do with satellite images. The UN's using them to track the progress of the apartheid wall that Israel's building to "keep Palestinian suicide bombers out". They haven't been all that careful about whose land they're excluding.

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Cypherpunks List Info
by cpunk＠lne.com 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

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Give us at least 3 Nyms
by Major Variola (ret.) 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

. We had to get very disciplined and accept nothing less than three names." A major obstacle was simply gathering the names correctly, considering that many Arabs have four proper names, including family and tribal surnames http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-tribalcode21dec21,1,4576…

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Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive
by Michael Kalus 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 http://www.debka.com/article_print.php?aid=743 Indications Saddam Was Not in Hiding But a Captive DEBKAfile Special Report December 14, 2003, 6:55 PM (GMT+02:00) A number of questions are raised by the incredibly bedraggled, tired and crushed condition of this once savage, dapper and pampered ruler who was discovered in a hole in the ground on Saturday, December 13: 1. The length and state of his hair indicated he had not seen a barber or even had a shampoo for several weeks. 2. The wild state of his beard indicated he had not shaved for the same period 3. The hole dug in the floor of a cellar in a farm compound near Tikrit was primitive indeed b 6ft across and 8ft across with minimal sanitary arrangements - a far cry from his opulent palaces. 4. Saddam looked beaten and hungry. 5. Detained trying to escape were two unidentified men. Left with him were two AK-47 assault guns and a pistol, none of which were used. 6. The hole had only one opening. It was not only camouflaged with mud and bricks b it was blocked. He could not have climbed out without someone on the outside removing the covering. 7. And most important, $750,000 in 100-dollar notes were found with him (a pittance for his captors who expected a $25m reward)b but no communications equipment of any kind, whether cell phone or even a carrier pigeon for contacting the outside world. According to DEBKAfile analysts, these seven anomalies point to one conclusion: Saddam Hussein was not in hiding; he was a prisoner. After his last audiotaped message was delivered and aired over al Arabiya TV on Sunday November 16, on the occasion of Ramadan, Saddam was seized, possibly with the connivance of his own men, and held in that hole in Adwar for three weeks or more, which would have accounted for his appearance and condition. Meanwhile, his captors bargained for the $25 m prize the Americans promised for information leading to his capture alive or dead. The negotiations were mediated by Jalal Talabanibs Kurdish PUK militia. These circumstances would explain the ex-rulerbs docility b described by Lt.Gen. Ricardo Sanchez as b resignationb b in the face of his capture by US forces. He must have regarded them as his rescuers and would have greeted them with relief. From Gen. Sanchezbs evasive answers to questions on the $25m bounty, it may be inferred that the Americans and Kurds took advantage of the negotiations with Saddambs abductors to move in close and capture him on their own account, for three reasons: A. His capture had become a matter of national pride for the Americans. No kudos would have been attached to his handover by a local gang of bounty-seekers or criminals. The country would have been swept anew with rumors that the big hero Saddam was again betrayed by the people he trusted, just as in the war. B. It was vital to catch his kidnappers unawares so as to make sure Saddam was taken alive. They might well have killed him and demanded the prize for his body. But they made sure he had no means of taking his own life and may have kept him sedated. C. During the weeks he is presumed to have been in captivity, guerrilla activity declined markedly b especially in the Sunni Triangle towns of Falluja, Ramadi and Balad - while surging outside this flashpoint region b in Mosul in the north and Najef, Nasseriya and Hilla in the south. It was important for the coalition to lay hands on him before the epicenter of the violence turned back towards Baghdad and the center of the Sunni Triangle. The next thing to watch now is not just where and when Saddam is brought to justice for countless crimes against his people and humanity - - Sanchez said his interrogation will take b as long as it takes b but what happens to the insurgency. Will it escalate or gradually die down? An answer to this, according to DEBKAfilebs counter-terror sources, was received in Washington nine days before Saddam reached US custody. It came in the form of a disturbing piece of intelligence that the notorious Lebanese terrorist and hostage-taker Imad Mughniyeh, who figures on the most wanted list of 22 men published by the FBI after 9/11, had arrived in southern Iraq and was organizing a new anti-US terror campaign to be launched in March-April 2004, marking the first year of the American invasion. For the past 21 years, Mughniyeh has waged a war of terror against Americans, whether on behalf of the Hizballah, the Iranian Shiite fundamentalists, al Qaeda or for himself. The Lebanese arch-terrorist represents for the anti-American forces in Iraq an ultimate weapon. Saddambs capture will not turn this offensive aside; it may even bring it forward. For Israel, there are three lessons to be drawn from the dramatic turn of events in Iraq: First, An enemy must be pursued to the end and if necessary taken captive. The Sharon governmentbs conduct of an uncertain, wavering war against the Palestinian terror chief Yasser Arafat stands in stark contrast to the way the Americans have fought Saddam and his cohorts in Iraq and which has brought them impressive gains. Second, Israel must join the US in bracing for the decisive round of violence under preparation by Mughniyeh, an old common enemy from the days of Beirut in the 1980s. Only three weeks ago, DEBKAfilebs military sources reveal, the terrorist mastermind himself was seen in south Lebanon in surveillance of northern Israel in the company of Iranian military officers. With this peril still to be fought, it is meaningless for Israelis to dicker over the Geneva Accord, unilateral steps around the Middle East road map, or even the defensive barrier. Third, Certain Israeli pundits and even politicians, influenced by opinion in Europe, declared frequently in recent weeks that the Americans had no hope of capturing Saddam Hussein and were therefore bogged down irretrievably in Iraq. The inference was that the Americans erred in embarking on an unwinnable war in Iraq. This was wide of the mark even before Saddam was brought in. The Americans are in firm control - even though they face a tough new adversary b and the whole purpose of the defeatist argument heard in Israel was to persuade the Sharon government that its position in relation to the Palestinians and Yasser Arafat is as hopeless as that of the Americans in Iraq. Israelbs only choice, according to this argument, is to knuckle under to Palestinian demands and give them what they want. Now that the Iraqi ruler is in American custody, they will have to think again. b14 December Commander of US ground forces in Iraq, Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, said at the dramatic news conference in Baghdad (Bremer: We Got him!), that Saddam Hussein was discovered in a b spider holeb 6-8ft deep behind a mud hut in a walled farm compound in Adwar, a town 15 km from Tikrit, eight months after his regime was toppled. His capture was achieved without a shot fired and no injuries. He was emaciated, tired and unkempt and had grown a gray beard. The initial medical examination was videotaped and aired. He was then shaved for identification. Found with him were two AK-47 assault rifles and $750,000. Two associates were detained with him. A ventilator enabled them to stay underground. The hole in which Saddam was hiding was camouflaged with bricks and dirt. Operation b Red Dawnb was carried by 4th Infantry Division and coalition special forces b 600 men. It was made possible by a great deal of human intelligence and the interrogation of captives. Gen. Sanchez reported the deposed Iraqi ruler, discovered Saturday, December 13, at 8.30 pm local time, showed no resistance and appeared resigned to his fate. He was b talkative and cooperativeb while being taken to a secure place. The interrogation will b take as long as it takes.b US administrator Paul Bremer called on the Iraqi people to turn to reconciliation and Saddambs followers to lay down their arms. US troops poured into Baghdad and blocked the road-bridges into the capital as soon as word spread, in anticipation of violence from Saddam fedayeen or foreign terrorists fighting the US-led coalition presence. Baghdadis fired guns in the air to celebrate the capture of the man who ruled the country with an iron fist for 23 years. Kurdish and Shiite towns filled with dancing and jubilation. Iraq officials demand Saddam be handed over to the new Iraqi war crimes tribunal to be judged for the murder of 300,000 Iraqis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 8.0.3 iQA/AwUBP+ZImGlCnxcrW2uuEQJeCQCfT2ADo3h8UQBJTwaP8F0OkX3OJ0YAnjHn AaAM+czY70SpxOgvVfauZvuD =SId2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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