December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: How to make non-neutral charge batteries... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:41:11 -0500 > From: Bill Stewart <bill.stewart(a)pobox.com> > Subject: Re: How to make non-neutral charge batteries... > At 09:13 PM 11/9/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >The two vertical plates above are not a capacitor. They simply represent > >some mechanism to hold charge, Leyden Jars for example. > > A Leyden Jar _IS_ a capacitor, which _IS_ a mechanism to hold charge. No shit Bill..... > Capacitors don't have to come from a factory in plastic or ceramic packaging; > they're simply two (or more) conductive surfaces separated by insulation; > that insulation can be air (or probably even vacuum), though there are > much better insulators around, which commercial capacitors normally use. No shit twice Bill, I make mine for my Tesla Coil out of copper sheeting and BIG (3ft x 6ft) plates of glass that were scrapped from a constuction site. Know what? If you take the Layden Jar, put a charge on the inside plate and then remove the OUTSIDE plate which is required to get it there, IT STILL HOLDS A CHARGE. Don't believe it? Try this: Take one plane of glass and two copper sheets. Place a glass between alternating copper layers thusly: Cu > ----------------------- --------------------------- < glass ----------------------- < Cu Then place a charge on it by using a standard battery. Then remove the metal plates leaving just the glass. Where do YOU believe the charge is stored, on the metal plates? If so....BUUUUUZZZZZZZ....wrong answer. If it were so we'd get a discharge if we connect the two metal sheets together after removing from the glass plate, you won't. If you put two metal plates on the glass and connect them again you'll get a spark. The charge RESTS ON THE SURFACE OF THE INSULATOR, the metal plates are there so that we can get an even charge distribution QUICKLY across the insulating dielectric. You could do it using just a couple of wires touching opposite sides of the glass but it will take a whopping long time to get the charge on the dielectric plate because it's an insulator and it has very few surface electrons (one of the characteristics of an insulator) to help distribute it. I'll let you in on another little secret. If you take two Leyden Jars and charge the inside plates of the two jars alternately and then connect them with a wire you'll get a spark clearly demonstrating charge flow, even if the outside plates aren't connected. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Oh, a warning about playing with glass & charge....
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If you do decide to play with charges stored on glass plates wear eye protection because every once in a while the mechanical stress is more than the glass can take and it will shatter. One way you can do this is to go to your local video arcade and purchase one of the glass sheets they use to cover their pinball machines. Then carry that glass plate by the edge in your hand as you scuff your feet across a nylon pile carpet (again wear safety glasses). The result about 1 out of 100 times, or if you've got lots of patience and can afford hours to scuff feet on carpet, is that the glass plate will shatter with a report about equivalent to a .22. Anyone watching should also wear eye protection as the shards can go 20ft. or moe. It's best if you do this on a cold dry day. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Another charge question for you physics genius'es
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Get yourself a 10,000 mike electrolytic cap. I prefer one of the cylindrical blue ones that have the 8-32 threaded terms on the top. Put a screw in each terminal. Short the screws with commen copper connection wire. Let it sit for several days to be sure there is no charge on it. Then remove the wire and let it sit for a couple of weeks. Then I dare you to touch it to your tongue. The question is: Where did that charge that just knocked the shit out of you come from? ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I guess Bill's decided to play around with his filtering software.... Forwarded message: > From cypherpunks(a)openpgp.net Sat Nov 21 16:02:59 1998 > From: cypherpunks(a)openpgp.net > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:58:50 -0500 > Message-Id: <199811212202.QAA16288(a)einstein.ssz.com> > Errors-To: whgiii(a)openpgp.net > Reply-To: cypherpunks(a)openpgp.net > Originator: cypherpunks(a)openpgp.net > Sender: cypherpunks(a)openpgp.net > Precedence: bulk > To: ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com > Cc: whgiii(a)openpgp.net > Subject: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Loop: ssz.com > Content-Type: text > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] > X-Loop: openpgp.net > > > We are sorry, but this system sensed the following request which may have been > inadvertedly sent to this list: > > GET YOURSELF A 10,000 MIKE ELECTROLYTIC CAP. I PREFER ONE OF THE CYLINDRICAL > > If your posting was intentional, please accept our apologies and resend your > mail message, making sure you do not include anything that may look like a > request in the first line of the body of the actual message. If this was > indeed a request please resend it to listproc > Your entire message > is copied below. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get yourself a 10,000 mike electrolytic cap. I prefer one of the cylindrical > blue ones that have the 8-32 threaded terms on the top. Put a screw in each > terminal. Short the screws with commen copper connection wire. Let it sit > for several days to be sure there is no charge on it. > > Then remove the wire and let it sit for a couple of weeks. Then I dare you > to touch it to your tongue. > > The question is: > > Where did that charge that just knocked the shit out of you come from? > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want > the right answers. > > Scully (X-Files) > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >

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Re: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)openpgp.net> > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:05:10 -0500 > Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) > In <199811212205.QAA16339(a)einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/21/98 > at 04:05 PM, Jim Choate <ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com> said: > > >I guess Bill's decided to play around with his filtering software.... > > No, listproc has some internal filtering to prevent message loops, subscribe requests, error messages, ect from going out to the main list. Unfortunately these settings can not be adjusted in the list settings but are set at compile time for the software. > > I have a shitload of error messages in my mailbox I have to sort through and figure out wether listproc is going to be too much of a PITA. I may have to get majordomo installed on the system and use that if this becomes too much of a problem (I really don't have time to be continually babysitting the system). > > Ahhh the joy and fun of running a CP node. :) :) Good luck and apologies for my incorrect conclusion. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re:
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

<nobody(a)replay.com> wrote: >Moahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah >u STOOPID dickheads and fuckwads supporting >CUNTS like micro$oft or even working there. >FUCK YOU lousy cockroaches. I, the great >tormentor and terminator will stamp you >out and exterminate you like the pests you >are. >HaHaHaHaHaHa mothafuckaz. >You will all die and give way to a better >world, better people and better systems. >Long live Unix, Mac, Amiga and TERROR. You are confusing the rest of us with Paul Merrill <PHM(a)sprynet.com>. Please remedy this situation immediately. Some of us do not support the Legion of Idiots as he does.

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Re: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd)
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In <199811212307.RAA16588(a)einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/21/98 at 06:03 PM, Jim Choate <ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com> said: >Forwarded message: >> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)openpgp.net> >> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:05:10 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Error Condition Re: Another charge question for you physics genius'es (fwd) >> In <199811212205.QAA16339(a)einstein.ssz.com>, on 11/21/98 >> at 04:05 PM, Jim Choate <ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com> said: >> >> >I guess Bill's decided to play around with his filtering software.... >> >> No, listproc has some internal filtering to prevent message loops, subscribe requests, error messages, ect from going out to the main list. Unfortunately these settings can not be adjusted in the list settings but are set at compile time for the software. >> >> I have a shitload of error messages in my mailbox I have to sort through and figure out wether listproc is going to be too much of a PITA. I may have to get majordomo installed on the system and use that if this becomes too much of a problem (I really don't have time to be continually babysitting the system). >> >> Ahhh the joy and fun of running a CP node. :) >:) >Good luck and apologies for my incorrect conclusion. FWIW when a message is rejected both the sender and myself should get CC'd a copy of the message and the reason for the reject so no messages should be "lost". Some of the filtering is nice, like those elmz blank subject error messages are filtered out by the program. Unfortunatly a "good" message gets filtered and I need to manually forward it to the list. Since I don't have any subscribers yet this has not been a problem. :) -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Question about general patents
by Vortexia 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I was wondering... what is the current law in the United States about patenting of software programs, and does anyone know where I can find out if there are any standard international laws about the patenting of software. I have products that I and the rest of my company have designed that we need patented, unfortunatly the South African patent act reads like this: (Republic of South Africa, Patents act no. 57 of 1978) Section 2.2.1: Anything which consists of a discovery; a scientific theory; a mathematical concept; a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work or any other aesthetic creation, a scheme, rule or method for performing a mental act, playing a game or doing business, a program for a computer; or the presentation of information, is not regarded as an invention for the purposes of the Patents Act. If there is any other way to protect my software and my designs internationally, or under any international treaties etc, and anyone knows of such a way, please drop me an email, it would be much appreciated. Cheers Andrew Alston

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KRA on NAI/KRA
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Phil and Cabe, For your info. Response will be very welcome. John --------- Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:27:31 -0800 To: pgp-users(a)joshua.rivertown.net, cryptography(a)c2.net From: Dave Del Torto <ddt(a)lsd.com> Subject: KRA on ADK vs KR, NAI membership Cc: coderpunks(a)toad.com, ukcrypto(a)maillist.ox.ac.uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Summary: (1) The Key Recovery Alliance will analyze the viability of PGP's ADK technology as an alternative to escrowing of keying material and intends to publish its position. (2) Network Associates IS a member of the KRA as of July 2, 1998. Note that date is ~6 months after NAI represented itself as having withdrawn. (3) Corporate contacts for KRA member-companies are not public information. I have also inquired about who the KRA contact person is at NAI. dave -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0 Comment: Get interested in computers -- they're interested in YOU! iQA/AwUBNlgRApBN/qMowCmvEQLm7wCgx+7sBVgBQsXisQLJswx3w7a16Q0Anii3 XOzJzZxEMqd9YnMlz93U+iXX =eHxw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ................................. cut here ................................. My Inquiry to the KRA: To: info(a)kra.org Subject: request for information -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello, I have some questions about the KRA. 1. In your FAQ <http://www.kra.org/FAQS1209.html>, you state that one of the organization's goals is to: "Serve as a focal point for industry efforts to develop commercially acceptable solutions for recovery of encrypted information" This seems to allow that there may be valid encrypted _data_ recovery methods other than _key_ recovery using the KRA's "common key recovery block" (still under discussion). However, I'm not aware of the KRA's public position on the recovery of plaintext using cryptographically sound and ethically responsible alternatives to the escrowing of keys in organizational situations, e.g. PGP's Additional Decryption Key (ADK) mechanism. What is the KRA's public position on PGP's ADK? 2. A public debate has recently arisen because the KRA website's member roster indicates that Network Associates (NAI) is a member of the KRA. NAI representatives, however, have publicly contraindicated this. Can you clarify NAI's membership status in the KRA, specifically: A. On what date (if ever) did NAI apply for membership in the KRA? B. Is the KRA in possession of any evidence (letter, etc) to show that NAI was or is a member of the KRA? C. If NAI was a member of the KRA at any time, on what date did a corporate officer of NAI formally withdraw NAI from the KRA, if ever? D. Regarding KRA membership policy, if a company is not a member itself but acquires another company that is a KRA member, but, does this acquisition automatically confer membership status on the parent company, or is a formal request to "expand" the company's membership necessary? E. If NAI was not a member of the KRA at the time of its Trusted Information Systems (TIS) acquisition, did the KRA receive a request from any NAI representative to expand TIS's membership to all of NAI? 3. KRA member companies are listed with their web URLs, but no individual contact name/phone/email is provided for any of them. Can you supply a complete listing of the designated contacts (corporate representatives) at each of the KRA member organizations, should one want to discuss with them their respective companies' KR positions or proposals? For example, if, in fact, the KRA website is correct to list NAI as a member, then who is NAI's official KRA representative? Thank you in advance for your prompt clarification. dave ____________________________________________________________________________ Dave Del Torto +1.415.334.5533 CSO & VP Security Consulting <mailto:ddt@lsd.com> Level Seven Digital Labs PGP Key: <http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x28C029AF> Fingerprint: 9b29 031d 70de f566 e076 b108 904d fea3 28c0 29af / Size: 4096 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0 iQA/AwUBNlUMapBN/qMowCmvEQKt8wCg0i6ZZj1a6aL/TrzM/jqv4wKBEnoAoK4e xkwtQCiBJDHuBUWFRzCRBA/K =fg+B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ................................. cut here ................................. The KRA's prompt reply (signed by me to indicate what I received): -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 06:31:50 -0800 To: Dave Del Torto <ddt(a)lsd.com> From: Michael LoBue <LoBue(a)kra.org> Subject: Re: request for information Cc: Majdalany(a)kra.org, Bobbie(a)kra.org Mr. Del Torto, Thank you for your inquiry about a KRA member company. I am member of the Alliance's secretariat staff addressing their business and administrative needs. This puts me in a position to answer some of your questions directly. Others I will pass along to appropriate Alliance member representatives for response. About the KRA's public position on PGP's ADK, obviously it was not adequately addressed for your needs in the Alliance's existing materials. I will ask a more appropriate and knowledgeable spokesperson to respond to your questions and concerns. Concerning Network Associates membership in the KRA, in response to your question I have verified that our files contain an executed Membership Agreement for Network Associates (dated July 2, 1998), as well as a properly completed Application for Membership of that same date. As an aside, the KRA has retained our firm to manage their business and administrative affairs. Our business is solely the management of industry associations. Thus, we have no conflict of interest as our clients are the 'associations' themselves and not any of the individual member companies. For the management of our client associations (currently 4) we employ certain practice standards. One important practice area is the impartial recognition of membership. Simply put, we exercise no discretionary judgment about whether a company is a member or not. If a company completes the required steps to become a member (execute an agreement, complete an application and pay the appropriate dues) they become a member. In other words, membership is binary...complete all the steps --> become a member; omit any of these steps --> NOT a member. Ever since the the Alliance was formally constituted as a California nonprofit corporation (October 1997), rigorous application processes have been in place. It is true that a number of companies, including NAI I believe, were attending meetings under the name of the KRA during much of 1997. However, until the Alliance was formally constituted, involving membership agreements, applications and payment of dues, it's not entirely accurate to characterize those companies participating in 1997 as 'members' of the Alliance. Indeed, some of this current 'public debate' about NAI's relationship with the KRA goes back to their public statement that they 'withdrew' from the organization. The fact of the matter is that they simply did not choose to become an actual member at the time the organization was formally constituted. When it was reported that they withdrew, there was in fact no entity from which to withdraw. Regarding the listing of individual representatives from member companies, it is the Alliance's policy not to do this. For whatever it's worth, this is a standard practice of industry associations. I am passing your message along to the designated NAI representative and inviting him to respond. At the risk of stating the obvious, it is not uncommon for companies in any industry, especially hi-tech, to have multiple opinions within their management teams. And, to have these opinions expressed in public forums. It has been my experience that it is dangerous to infer corporate and product strategies from a companies membership in industry groups. Companies join industry associations for all manner of reasons, not all of which they share with the market. I'm not suggesting any thing other than the fact that our industry makes for extremely "complex business" and there's no reason to believe that this complexity of actions, strategies and motivations isn't going to appear in a company's involvement in industry associations. Sorry for the length of this reply. However, it's clear that there are a great many concerns behind your questions and I've tried to reach those concerns. I hope this response has been useful to you. Regards, Michael LoBue KRA Secretariat Staff --end KRA response-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0 iQA/AwUBNlWtuJBN/qMowCmvEQI6WACgv0CZt3KmzptfQxO/2FJ2aqAA/v8An1C6 +q4Uh8H0LuwMKpou5cVS14v6 =ssZt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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17 Dec '03

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