December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

[Fwd: Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)]
by Soren 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sorry Jim, slip of the wrist. Hydroelectric turbines generate electric power. Feed this into the power grid; well, maybe until the end of next year. Maybe after 2000 we'll see the un-nationalization of the national power grid. Bay of Fundy is >50 (?) square miles and tidal range is 25feet, one of the largest in the world. There have been discussions in the past to do likewise to the Bering strait also. Sorry about that whales. To: sorens(a)workmail.com (Soren) Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd) From: Jim Choate <ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:01:39 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: <35F7FF53.E57503AE(a)workmail.com> from "Soren" at Sep 10, 98 12:33:23 pm Hi Soren, Let's keep it on the list please... > What about tidal hydro? Bay of Fundy would be appropriate. Figure the volume of the Bay from low tide and the highest tide. Then figure the time needed to fill. From this you can calculate the maximum amount of energy available. If you live near the Bay I suppose it would work, won't help the folks 50 miles away though... The goal is to find a renewable, generaly available source of energy so that geographic proximity is irrelevant. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
by Brown, R Ken 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > Quit sending these responses to my private email. If you want to discuss it > keep it on the list. Any further such private submissions go into /dev/null > unread. This also means you don't need to cc: if you send it to the cpunks > list since I'm subscribed...;) It's because we're using these broken-as-designed mailers that put your name into the reply as well as the the list :-( > Now, back to more intersting discussion... Definitely [...snip Jim Burnes on hemp yields (because you all already read it...] > You're going to seriously claim that 1 gallon of hemp oil is equivalent to 3 > gallons of gasoline? I don't think so. I've seen hemp burn and it don't burn > anywhere near that efficiently. I'm begining to lose track of this thread. Are we talking about: 1) reducing fossil fuel use for conservation? (not something Cypherpunks mention a lot :-) 2) ways of cutting the imported fuel requirement of "western" countries in order to save money and/or teach the Arabs a lesson? (cf the sideline about Israel) 3) how to live with as little interaction as possible with the the existing state or corporate economy? 4) what we do for fuel if the balloon goes up, the lights go out, the crash comes & we are in an "Earth Abides" scenario? i.e everyone has died, or gone away, or stopped working for money and we ahve to survive as best we can? If (1) or (2) then reducing fuel consumption is a damn sight more cost-effective than substituting anything else for motor gas. You know, insulation, designing buildings for the climate, high fuel taxes, subsidised public transport... all the things us lefty Europeans like bit that don't go down well in Houston, Texas. I take Jim's point about solar-powered houses being a money pit - although there does seem to be some medium-term benefit in glass cladding for passive solar heating (known to our ancestors as "conservatories" :-) And if (2) is what you mean then you probably ought to carry on paying the dollars to those Arabs so they carry on spending them on American products - like McDonalds and Disney and MS Windows. Cultural imperialism works wonders. For every Muslim for whom America is the great Satan there is another for whom it is the home of Elvis. Or the Simpsons. Or Charley Pride. Or even Jim Reeves. You wouldn't believe how much Jim Reeves you hear in Africa. For (3) again the easy way is to arrange your lifestyle to consume less. I expect if you are distilling fuel-grade alcohol in your yard the local equivalent of customs and excise will want a word with you. If you are going to burn plant material for fuel don't bother with oil. Either distill the alcohol (if you are in a warmish climate like southern California you can probably get the best yields from cane - but it sucks up water like a herd of hungry camels) or burn wood. In a temperate climate you probably get the best yields from coppiced trees - use whatever grows in your local area and coppices well. Willow grown in wetlands does well. The yield of burnable biomass is far better than most herbaceous crops. Use hazel, birch even oak. Leaves make animal feed, stouter poles are for timber, thinner ones for burning - if you need higher temperature make charcoal out of it. Lots of use for the bark as well. Just like our ancestors used to do before all this industry. Of course you won't be able to run a car on it... for that you need the alcohol. If we did get thrown back to a mediaeval economy those of us who survived probably would be growing hemp (you heard it here first) but not as a fuel crop. Hemp has great yields but it isn't much cop as fuel It was one of the major crops in England a thousand years ago - in some pollen studies it was the major crop. That's not for recreational or medicinal use (you don't need acres of it for that) but as animal feed and for fibre, with fuel as a useful byproduct. Probably not as an an oil crop & if it was it would probably be cooking oil. > I also notice it doesn't mention what it costs to raise that 4 tons/acre... Clearly more than getting oil from out of the ground. That's why my employers are still in business. There were some Welsh hill farmers on the radio the other day asking more more subsidy from the government. Apparently their average income is now only about 10,000 UKP a year (maybe 16,000 USD). They were complaining that their fathers and grandfathers used to be able to get a living from the land, but they can't, and they were blaming the "global market" and urban-dominated governments who didn't understand farming. Of course the truth is that they can live the way their grandfathers lived if they want to. But in the last 100 years *everyone* *else* has got richer and the way of life of a small farmer in the Welsh hills now looks like poverty. And there is nothing (other than the law) to stop someone with 30 acres and a cow from growing their hemp and their willow withies (in Wales) or their cotton and their cane (in California) and riding their own horse and making their own clothes and having almost nothing to do with the rest of the modern economy. But they won't be able to have a car, or a computer and if they get any modern medicine it will be on welfare. We probably ought to know *how* to live like that, just in case things really fall apart. (I remember once having to show someone how to squat over a hole-in-the-ground latrine because he had only ever used bogs with seats) . But don't look forward to it. Ken Brown (usual disclaimers still in force)

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Re: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:46:02 -0600 (MDT) > From: Jim Burnes <jvb(a)ssds.com> > Subject: Re: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd) > I think you misunderstood. They are claiming "gasoline equivalent > gallons/acre" -- not that 1 gallon of hemp oil = 3 gallons of gasoline. > And were not talking about "burning" hemp in that sense. In this > particular case were talking about hemp-based biodiesel. How many gallons of gasoline can you raise on an acre? Actualy the point I was trying to make is that it's comparing apples and oranges. Until it's in a dollars/gallon for each of them format no real worthwhile comparison can be made. > Raising a full acre of hemp in that matter is something I don't have the > data on. However, hemp is widely known as a low-maintenance crop -- that > translates little to no fertilizer. After that we have the price of the > land/month, servicing loans on the farm equipment, labor costs, taxes, > energy, water etc. Typical business overhead. And for that 1000 galgas > eq/acre. Well don't forget crop rotation since the hemp is going to deplete the soil if you simply grow three crops a year (which is possible this far south). There is also the issue of water, hemp is a plant that needs lots of water and is very sensitive to light levels/times, tempearture and pH. Hemp also leeches nitrogen quite heavily. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Brown, R Ken" <brownrk1(a)texaco.com> > Subject: RE: Renewable Energy Stuff (was citizenship silliness) (fwd) > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:30:05 -0500 > > Now, back to more intersting discussion... > > Definitely > I'm begining to lose track of this thread. Are we talking about: Well if we really, really must go back there....;) What I was originaly looking to discuss was the impact of the injection of a globaly available, economical, and effective replacement of petroleum products on the international relationships. In particular the impact on places like Isreal, Iran, US, etc. The only real relevance this has to cypherpunks is from the economics side (why I've been trying to stay on topic with the economics comments in parens) and how such a shift of economic and industrial capabilites out of centralized and nationaly controlled geographies might impact these same countries ability to remain stable and the consequences of such. Take Kuwait for example, the impact there would be devistating. And like a domino effect (or want of a nail...) the repurcussions can be imagined to run up the food chain. It is related, though not directly, to an issue that I was engaged in several days ago about Gibson and the relationships of governments, individuals, large companies, technology development, etc. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Spot The Fed
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Traceroute doesn't use DNS? Whatever. And it's ICMP, Internet Control Management Protocol. The original traceroute works by sending User Datagram Protocol (UDP) datagrams (default 3) to an invalid port address of a remote host, starting with a Time-To-Live (TTL) of 1 causing the first router in the path to return an ICMP Time Exceeded Message (TEM), traceroute increments the TTL by one (up the max hop count, default 30) and resends, reaching the next router, until an ICMP Destination Unreachable Message is returned indicating the unreachable port on the destination host. The IP addresses of the hops are determined by the return packet headers, there is no hostname. Reverse DNS lookup is used to give you the host names, which can be turned on or off in the traceroute options (it's much faster if you turn it off). Traceroute was a diagnostic kludge. RFC 1393 describes and ICMP-based traceroute function, whereby traceroute sends an ICMP trace message (see the RFC for details) but there is still no hostname on the return packet, DNS is still used. Certain ICMP messages are often disabled and/or certain ports blocked or "shaped" by routers under thresholds to prevent common Denial-of-Service (DoS) attacks. Matt > -----Original Message----- > From: Raymond D. Mereniuk [mailto:Raymond@fbn.bc.ca] > Traceroute doesn't use DNS, it doesn't need to as it already has the > IP numbers. DNS is a system which provides IP numbers when you > give it a domain name. Reverse DNS provides a host name to an IP > address but Traceroute doesn't use it. > > Traceroute works at the router level. Traceroute is like Ping but > provides information on every hop including IP number and > assigned device name. With Traceroute if a host name is not > received, when requested of course, it is because the equipment > was not assigned a host name or it is deliberately suppressed. I > don't use Traceroute a lot but this is the first time I have > seen host names suppressed. > > A lot of routers have ICM suppressed and will not provide a device > name. If an end user site wants to provide better security they will > turn off ICM packets. At that point Traceroute doesn't work at all.

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CJ Update
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This from the AZ court docket of September 2 (note the out of sequence entry date for the first item which was not there when we got the docket on September 2 although the last two were): 8/25/98 6 ( FILED: 8/31/98) MINUTES: before Mag Judge Nancy Fiora Court telephonically notified that Carl Johnson is defecating in his food tray, mutilating himself and writing on the walls with his blood; court notes that dft spat upon officers while awaiting his initial appearance[cc: all cnsl] [6-1] re: minute entry [6-1] (sms) [Entry date 09/02/98] 8/26/98 -- ORAL MOTION for Psychiatric exam [0-0] by Carl Edward Johnson (sms) [Entry date 08/27/98] 8/26/98 5 ORDER by Mag Judge Nancy Fiora granting motion for Psychiatric exam [0-0] Psychiatric examination ordered for Carl Edward Johnson (sms) [Entry date 08/27/98] ---------- The AZ docket is archived at: http://jya.com/cej090298.htm We also got today the Western Washington court docket which shows when CJ's arrest warrant was issued and sealed, August 5: http://jya.com/cej082298.htm We did a quick check of the WA court's cases for others (TCM and JYA) who may have a sealed arrest warrant in force, but found none. But if there are any they may not be entered in the public record yet, as with Carl's performance artistry.

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Re: ASL: RE: RE: RE: Copyright infringement (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:58:40 -0700 > From: Randy King <randyk(a)ims.com> > Subject: Re: ASL: RE: RE: RE: Copyright infringement (fwd) > Yes, but there is a difference. It is legal to share a book. Although it > is copyrighted, you have the right to share it, at least in the US. A letter > is similar. Um, actualy not. It is actualy illegal for me to allow you to borrow my books, CD's, albums, etc. > been a court case on this yet? Consider that companies have the right to > make copies of all electronic mail coming through their Internet connections. They own it. The employees are acting as agents of the employer and therefore the employer, not the employee, is the owner of that traffic. So if you send an email to some mailing list on the clock or with their equipment then the traffic wasn't ever yours. The owner of a copyright can make as many copies as they choose. The question is what do they do with the email that comes from the other person using the other employers computer to send the traffic.... As far as I know this hasn't made it into court in this exact form, however it isn't likely too either. The precedences, and reasoning behind, the above interpretation is well known and understood (at least by lawyers). > The issue is still very open on web sites. The federal govt. is considering > legislation (even as we type) that would make it illegal to copy any info > from a web site written by a child (under 18). Since viewing it makes a copy, > it would be illegal to look at one without the writer's permission. And > there is no obligation on the writer's part to divulge his age. It is > obvious the feds don't understand the technology yet. Again, I haven't had > a chance to observe what has happened here in the past 6 or 8 months now. What is the bill number for this? > Anyway, under your interpretation (which is probably the legal one > unfortunately), viewing a web site would be illegal without permission > first. Regardless of age. Not viewing it since the act of putting the data on the server is an implied permission to view. However, the instant you make a permanent copy on your hard-drive, that's not in the browsers short term cache, would be illegal. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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IP: Dave Barry: "Funny Money"
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: ignition-point(a)majordomo.pobox.com X-Sender: believer(a)telepath.com Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:39:07 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: Dave Barry: "Funny Money" Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ignition-point(a)majordomo.pobox.com Precedence: list Reply-To: believer(a)telepath.com Source: Miami Herald http://www.herald.com/archive/barry/archive/98sep06.htm Published Friday, September 4, 1998, in the Miami Herald Funny Money By DAVE BARRY Recently I received a press release from the U.S. Treasury Department. Naturally my first move was to verify, via chemical analysis, that it was genuine. There has been a sharp increase in the number of counterfeit Treasury Department press releases, as an embarrassed CNN found out last month when it reported, incorrectly, that Federal Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan does all the voices on the popular cartoon show South Park. (In fact, he does only Kenny and Mr. Hankey.) But this particular press release turned out to be authentic; it announced that, this fall, we'll be seeing a new, redesigned $20 bill. This is part of an anti-counterfeiting program to redesign all of our old currency, which has become too easy to duplicate with modern color photocopiers -- a fact that was made all too clear when the Xerox Corp., in its 1997 annual report, reported profits of ``$850 trillion, mostly in 50s.'' Why does counterfeit money represent a threat to the nation? And how can we, as consumers, be sure that we have spelled ``counterfeit'' correctly? To answer these questions, we need to understand exactly what money is, and what makes it valuable. Back in ancient times, when people were much stupider than they are today, there was no such thing as money. People transacted business by trading actual, physical things. For example, if you sold a cow, the buyer would pay for it by giving you, say, 14 physical ducks. Even in those days, that was a lot of ducks to be carrying around, and the bank wouldn't let you deposit them, because they fought with the chickens. Also the automatic teller machines were disgusting. Finally, the ancient Egyptians got sick of this and invented the first unit of paper currency, called the `simoleon.'' The way the Egyptians explained the concept to their trading partners was: ``For your convenience, we're going to start paying you with these pieces of paper, which are valuable because they have a picture of Ulysses Grant.'' The trading partners were not crazy about this concept, but they went along with it, because the Egyptians had also invented spears. Today, the basic principle remains the same: We trust money because our government stands behind it. A counterfeit $20 bill is a worthless piece of paper backed by nothing; whereas a real $20 bill, issued by the Treasury Department, has value, because any time you want, you can take it to Fort Knox, site of the federal gold bullion depository, and exchange it, no questions asked, for a duck. Try it yourself! If they give you any trouble, mention my name, Art Buchwald. But the point is that, starting this fall, you're going to start seeing a drastically redesigned $20 bill. Among the major changes are: -- To thwart would-be photocopiers, instead of saying ``TWENTY DOLLARS,'' the new $20 bills say ``FIFTEEN DOLLARS.'' -- The Nike swoosh has been enlarged. -- The engraved portrait of Andrew Jackson has been given a new, up-to-date hairstyle, patterned, according to the Treasury Department press release, ``after Barry Manilow.'' President Jackson also has been given a vivacious new facial expression that seems to say: ``I am looking good, and I am READY TO PARTY with the engraved portraits on other currency denominations!'' -- On the back of the bill, in the engraving of the White House, on the far right-hand side, in the engraved shrubbery, is a tiny crouching engraving of Kenneth Starr. -- For verification purposes, the new bill is impregnated with plutonium particles that emit a distinctive pattern of atomic radiation. ``This poses absolutely no health danger whatsoever to humans,'' notes the Treasury Department press release, which adds: ``Do not ever put the bill in your pocket.'' These improvements, plus the top-secret ``auto-detonate'' feature that I am not allowed to mention in this column, will make the new $20 bill -- which is costing the government $348.50 per unit to manufacture -- the most advanced anti-counterfeit currency in the world. But the whole effort will be wasted unless you, the consumer, do your part by keeping a sharp eye out for ``funny money.'' The Treasury Department is asking that you regularly inspect all of your bills, of all denominations. If you notice anything suspicious -- according to the press release, this especially means ``foreign words, men in wigs, strings of numbers, a greenish coloring or some kind of weird eyeball floating over a pyramid'' -- you should immediately put the suspect bills into an envelope and mail them to: The U.S. Treasury Department Anti-Counterfeit Task Force, c/o Dave Barry, The Miami Herald, Miami, Fla. 33132. Please help. Only by joining together to fight this thing can we, as a nation, buy me a giant mansion with servants and a lake. It will have ducks. Thank you. Copyright © 1998 The Miami Herald ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ********************************************** --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 13:15:09 -0500 > From: Petro <petro(a)playboy.com> > Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd) > Well, we used to dump 1000-3000 gallons of waste fuels into a pit, > but I'd guess a decent size bucket or tray would work. > > We had a smaller pit about 5x3 feet. Youser, this is a plan to have every fireman and policeman in Austin show up at my house Saturday afternoon isn't it (you crafty devil you)?... I'll have to beg off since I live right in the middle of town any showy demonstrations would be met with some neighborhood hostility I suspect. I also don't believe the folks who own the land out in Elgin where my shop is would go for that either, they're worried enough about my rocket engines and Tesla coils... > truck, we are talking no more than 10 or 20 gallons of fuel, tops. > As I said, I know "just a bit" about this. I know that we would > often get the bubbles from the detergent/water combo floating on top of > everything, assisting in preventing a reflash by keeping a blanket between > the air and the fuel/water. Well in petroleum fires it isn't the liquid that burns but the very thin gas layer just above it. You can actualy put a gas fire out with a wash of gasoline. It's got to literaly be thrown on the fire and it needs to be much larger than the quantity of material being burned. The soap/water combo act as a layer reducing the outgassing and hence starving the fire of fuel. It also lowers the temperature also helping the fire fighting (remember temperature, fuel, oxidizer). The bubbles of water than form, without the soap, sink to the bottem of the spilled fuel and play no part in the fire/fire-fighting process. > A "friend" of my fathers has been heating his home with it longer > than I've known him, and that's about 20 years. Had his investment returned > a LONG time ago. Where does he live? What kind of house does he live in? What happens when we expand his system to cover a small city of say 10k and include schools, hospitals, business, etc.? What are the costs to install and operate compared to traditional methods? If he lives in a wood house in Alaska that won't work, if he lives in a mud hut in the desert of Nevada all you need is a straw mat, a fan, and some water to cool (yeah I know that's a literal exageration, but environment does play a role). There's this house here in Austin that is thermo-regulated by a fluid that is pumped several hundred feet into a hill. The temperature in the core of the hill stays about 68F year around, his house stays around 72 or so year around as a consequence. Unfortunately, we don't have enough hills in Austin (and if you've never been to Austin, we're nothing but hills) to take care of the entire city. The heat from your neighbors house ends up in your house and vica versa. > Question, when you said that there we'd need more land under > production than we have available to produce enough CHO3 (IIRC) to replace > oil, was that using current corn/soybean as a base material, or was that > considering higher biomass stuff such as Hemp &etc. As well, where was that > number from? I suspect (and that's all it is) that when one takes the population growth rate, requirements for water, transportation, housing, commercial enterprises, waste, etc. there won't be enough arrible land left to grow sufficient quantities of any plant material for anything except food. There are issues with clathrates as well. Such as the fact these materials are also the result of decay of animal matter and some percentage of outgassing on the sea bed from deep geo-sources and ultimitely face the same sort of issues with petroleum *if* the various curves don't match. The question is, and I admit to have no hard data other than supposition, what are/would be the curves if we used clathrates? Is the deposition rate sufficient given a global extraction rate that was positive over time? Does the increase in bio-mass as a result of population growth compensate sufficiently? I don't know and really would be hesitant to try to put real numbers to that with what references I have available currently. And given my current commitment level I'm not likely to spend a great deal of time working on it to solidify the model. I support diversity as well, unfortunately in some instances it's more economical (with the inclusion of waste and other issues normaly ignored) to go with a single solution on large scales. And that after all is the issue, not one house out of 10,000 but all 10,000. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: oil, greens, recycling, and poly-ticks.
by Information Security 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > > 8/25/98 Carl Johnson is defecating in his food tray... No shit! > From: Ray Arachelian <sunder(a)brainlink.com> > > Every toilet in our apt building was exchanged for one that supposedly > saves water... it now takes an average of three flushes to sink a > bowlful of turds... No shit! > My math says that's a lot more wasted water than the single flush > of the old toilet. Solution: http://yournewhouse.com/mainFR3.htm ---guy

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