December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire >world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that >regard. I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the whole world, not just Europe. >And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against >guided missiles and mortar fire. It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed. >And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual >arguments against gun control. The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth. "To defend yourself in general" is commonly used. War, oppressive government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations in which people need their weapons, even in the United States. >> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this >> fantasy land where everyone loves one another and would never think >> of killing someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe. > >Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over >there. You mean like the former Yugoslavia? Or do you mean like the parts of Europe where people are not slaughtering each other at the moment? I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment among the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other European countries. For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because when they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police. The Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to know them a little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the grudge. With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen quickly, even if things seem mellow right now. And these little resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in Europe than just between the Dutchies and the Germans. Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch informers, but there were even Dutch SS units. I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist in a large portion of the population of even a nice country. It is unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed. Let's turn to the Western Hemisphere: El Salvador. During much of the 1980s, the U.S. government supported groups of people in El Salvador who were sending out death squads to murder their suspected opponents. The U.S. certainly acquiesced in this activity - of this there is no doubt. But, it is not unlikely the U.S. was more directly involved. (Only fifteen years earlier the U.S. was doing the same thing in Vietnam.) What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were adequately armed? One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him or his family. At least, you wouldn't see it twice. Likewise, when the communist guerrillas were forcing (maybe) the peasantry to support them, the peasants would have no need to cooperate unwillingly if they were well armed. People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims, or slaves. That is desirable. Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown for murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to those of us who live in the U.S. It is unlikely that these tactics won't be used here were there a serious political struggle and a disarmed population. An issue that might possibly blossom into such a political struggle is mass surveillance. While the mass media is, for the most part, giving everything the government's spin, and while large numbers of Congressmen and other denizens of Washington, D.C. think it's a good idea, the bulk of the population is not happy about this at all. They can read the writing on the wall. The potential for conflict between the political class, which has a long history of murder and even assassination, and the American people exists right now. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDKo45aWtjSmRH/5AQG/KAf/ViGabpr8OnP2UYZ/CZAKQ4czRzVlx7Az Dcb0mqxnhNmQ7o5YJQlodbrmI3cEbXb0/YeTaX9r2pmxhtz06hekCTa28ZoycspB aCzoWLuZW1et9zNTYQzfDADLPPoLDizHG/zHPpWH97t/8NgQOXmQXS1qccNkylMl LghngUR+2YXlmB0omNLy1e6hQCzjkgUlxYE5T5Aimn0WpTmHk4yn9HwOdGXC2gvU idX5qlQUkwhxuEqOgN/p++tzv22Fi8W3RaIusrMzJV2dU3326IEwsJzFY3UI8xh2 M1bZCWTA6TlBBJoqbugt4gqvhAT0/yH6kJdLjDdYlKsEUVM3nfctfQ== =STNd -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan writes: >So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal >wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with >mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance, >generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples >too. > >Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_, >_Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman, >Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES. I'd figure pretty much anything from Bamford's _The Puzzle Palace_ would work, but the stuff on Operation Shamrock (interception of cable traffic) might be of particular interest. Also the parts about "intelligence sharing" with the Brits and Australians -- just because the NSA can't tap it doesn't mean they can't get it from our "friends." No doubt the Men From Fort Meade have been as helpful in the other direction as well. A particularly nice detail about Shamrock is that the FBI was using the NSA to conduct warrantless electronic surveillance of "un-American" groups by using ELINT, which was -- of course -- "born classified." I'd cite details, but my Bamford seems to be MIA. Maybe the MIB came for it. . . Ratbert

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None
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

How good will it be to have total conformity? What will be left of singularity? And personality? And you and me? CM

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by The.Global.Lotto.Agency＠news.NetVision.net.il 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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by search10＠earthlink.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:27:10 -0400 > From: ghio(a)temp0122.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio) > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > Jim Choate wrote: > > > What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating > > merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good > > for? > > So what are remailers being used for? We are talking commercial remailers here right? <see the quote you used above>. As famous as you are, you don't get to change the rules in the middle of the game. > 1) Private communication in the form of anonymous message pools You don't need anonymous remailers for this since simple crypto will provide just as good private communications security than anonymous remailers will because there is no central choke point where traffic analysis occurs . Now if one of the parties is actualy under surveillance then the anonymous remailers won't help because they will be tapping at the source, if anything it would provide further evidence of the parties complicity in a conspiracy. If you want your communications to stay private (if I understand your use of the word) use encryption and use underground remailers which isn't open to commercial exploitation, or else simply purchase a different account on your current ISP. > 2) Test posts Irrelevant, people don't pay for test posts enough to keep a commercial remailer in business - unless we vastly increase the total traffic level by quite a few orders of magnitude. > 3) Discussion of Macintosh computers irrelevant, people won't pay for this either. > 4) Discussion of obscure religions irrelevant (and I'm a Pantheist, they don't get more obscure than that) since people ain't gonna pay for this unless they are persecuted in their country of residence. If so the easiest thing to do would be to outlaw anonymous remailers (with the same logic they use to oppress the religion). [see #6 for more details on this] > 5) Sharing erotic fantasy stories And you suspect they will actualy pay for this? This line of reasoning I would love to hear more on... > 6) Avoiding censorship in Singapore Let's look at this a moment. I believe we can take as a given that Singapore is a oppressive regime. Furthermore all traffic in Singapore goes through government operated and regulated POP's. In that environment you really want to send traffic to an anonymous remailer? Can you say 'man-in-the-middle', and not only that but all the outgoing traffic from Singapore won't be through an anonymous remailers making it trivial for Singapore officials to determine exactly who to go hassle. So it is clear that the only parties discussing Singapore safely will be outside Singapore which makes the supposition that Singapore is going to come after you a bit suspect. You're talking about a country that outlaws private satellite dishes - get real. Furthermore commercial enterprises are open to much closer scrutiny in areas like Singapore making it even harder to stay in business unless the operator happens to be a government stooly, hardly the stuff of security. My thesis would be that any remailer (commercial or not) in a country with an oppresive regime is the last place you want to consider secure. > 7) Avoiding censorship in Iran See #6. Applies to China, Korea, Iraq, etc. > 8) Discussion of remailers themselves I would also like to see your explanation of exactly why they would pay for this. > 9) Discussion of controvertial political topics (racism, guns, drugs) The only reason that anonymous remailers are useful here is that the originating party doesn't want to deal with the results of being known. The flip side to this is that the reputation of anonymous discussions in these sorts of areas would have little political impact. A person who won't discuss such issues under their own name certainly won't go out and become actively involved in some political movement. Now if your claim is that such activity might hold some weight with an elected official I would appreciate an explanation as well - especialy considering that the anonymity provides just enough 'cover' so that the politician can safely ignore any and all traffic made through this mechanism, "They aren't one of my constituents." If you have some reasoning outside this please share it. > 10) Discussion about a TV show Irrelevant because people won't pay for this. Free remailers are useful for all sorts of mental masturbation, for actual business there doesn't seem to be a lot of uses. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Remailers and ecash
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/1/97 5:03 AM, Robert A. Costner (pooh(a)efga.org) passed this wisdom: >At 09:59 AM 10/1/97 +0200, Anonymous (Monty Cantsin) wrote: >>It is my understanding that serious naval vessels like aircraft >>carriers use constant bandwidth channels to defeat traffic analysis. >>That is, to every place they might wish to communicate, they >>continuously broadcast encrypted information. Most of the time the >>channel is empty, of course, but nobody outside can tell when. >> >>If we had a remailer network in which each customer had a constant >>bandwidth connection to one or more remailers, you could have zero >>latency mail. > >Let me get this straight. You are suggesting that anyone who wishes to be >anonymous should send a continuous 24 hour stream of low bandwidth data to >a central point in an effort to help keep anyone from knowing that they >wish to be anonymous. > >While this may help correct the latency problem, how do you think this will >effect anonymity? Do you think that by sending a continuos stream of data >to the remailer, the sender will be less identifiable? No, but I see that someone with a fulltime connection or even a fulltime machine with an hourly or half hourly dialup would setup a program to send randomly generated "Null:" messages to the randomly selected remailers so that when he does have something to send that is meaningful it will not change the apparent flow ... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDLjFMdZgC62U/gIEQI1wgCg22mCFVbWn77DwG1CUlIRJah7oooAnic0 e0J0D1IOLP85CNvadBh9cBVA =5UGm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "First say to your self what you would be; then do what you have to do." Epictetus (35-135 A.D.)

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:16:22 +0100 > From: alexlh(a)yourchoice.nl (Alex Le Heux) > Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" > You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like > any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point. Actualy I have never killed anything with my current .22, but a lot of tin cans and paper targets have been holed. And, no, I would NEVER consider a .22 anything close to a self-defence weapon since even a head shot doesn't guarantee anything other than pissing the target off. I might use it as a club but it is not nearly that stout, I'd go for my shovel or hoe or maybe my nunchakus (assuming they didn't have a gun -which most burglars and such don't have). > So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a lot of > people very dead. This is a Bad Thing. Actualy it cuts down on crime because the criminal is afraid they might get shot. A perfect example of this is Florida or Texas where the vast majority of people have guns. If you catch a burglar in your house or car do they run? No. Why? In the vast majority of cases the perp states that they were afraid of being shot - in effect saving both lives. I can say this, I would never consider staying in a place for very long that prevented me from owning a gun legaly. Well, actualy there is one way, guarantee that I get my own personal police officer to go around with me (and they should be armed). Here in Texas we have a law that permits the owner of property to kill without warning any party stealing their property after dark. It's amazing that the vast majority of burglaries and such happen during the day. It's further interesting that in both Texas and Florida after legalizing handguns the number of robberies and such went down, as well as the number of violent crimes using guns. The only thing that went up was domestic violence where one spouse killed another in a fit of rage. Had the gun not been there they would have gone back to knives and frying pans which used to be the weapon of choice. Are you proposing that we outlaw knives and frying pans as well? > Gun control laws are not the issue. It's a matter of mentality. In Europe, > where we have rather strict guncontrol laws, and have had them for a long > time a decent human being will not even think of shooting someone else. Not mentality, maturity. I am shure they think about it all the time, they just can't find an underground gun dealer. Yeah, they not only blow up the individual target but a couple of dozen other bystanders in the process. If it's so damn safe how come the cops over there all carry machine pistols and such. Something you never see here in the states even during a bank robbery. > In the > US, where guns are tradition and part of the American way, many people would > not think twice before shooting someone. The result of this is that the > number of people getting killed by guns is enourmous, be they criminals, > little kids, old grannies, or presidents. First, not that many little kids are killed by guns. Most die many other ways much more horrible. Two presidents and if Illinois is any show the Grandma's can take care of themselves. Secondly, in this country more people are killed each year by hands, feet, and clubs than guns. Thirdly, the vast majority of gun owners would no more shoot somebody without thinking than they would run over them in their car. Beside, it takes a moment of reflection to get the sites lined up. > We are not trying to export our stupidity, we're just trying to explain to > you how we live. We live in a place where we don't even have to think about > getting a gun, because the chances of us encountering a gun in the hands > of an adversary are negligible. You have accepted your over-bearing invasive jackbooted police with a equinimaty that would never occur here - we'd shoot the SOB's. Sounds like when it comes to sheeple the US has a long way to go when compared to Europe. > Wake up and smell the coffee, dude. If you have lots of guns around, you're > gonna end up with lots of people getting shot. And if some of those aren't shot we'd have a lot of people running around with other peoples property against their will. Shooting a person is in and of itself not bad, if you believe it is then I take it you support disarming the police and military as well. Do you support capital punishment? Apparently it's you and your ilk that haven't gotten the clue: It isn't that a gun was used but under what circumstances. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 19:56:26 -0400 > From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr(a)together.net> > No, but I see that someone with a fulltime connection or even a > fulltime machine with an hourly or half hourly dialup would setup a > program to send randomly generated "Null:" messages to the randomly > selected remailers so that when he does have something to send that is > meaningful it will not change the apparent flow ... And why does this by any security when it's the header info and contents that Mallet looks at, not the frequency. The only thing such approaches do is impliment security by obscurity, and that ain't security. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:20:11 -0400 (EDT) > From: Cynthia Brown <cynthb(a)sonetis.com> > Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" > I agree wholeheartedly. Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, they > create them. If most households have at least one firearm, it makes it > that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing yours while you > are at work. Most households in the US do have firearms, most criminals don't steal guns they buy them from the underground. If they do steal them they sell them pretty quickly afterward. Very few gun crimes in the US are committed with stolen guns, or guns stolen by the possessor at the time of the shooting. > Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, but I for > one like it that way. I can walk alone and unarmed at night in Ottawa, > Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life. Can a female resident of > Washington or New York say the same? Our schools do not have metal detectors > at the entrances because they are not needed. Bullshit, they have muggings and such there just like everywhere else. Are you seriously claiming that sort of stuff doesn't happen? The schools here in Austin don't either. Most schools in the US don't have this sort of stuff. > IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the "bad > guys", but with better social programs such as universal health care, and > improved day care so single parents can show their kids what a productive > lifestyle looks like. This takes longer than blowing the brains out of some > teenager that feels his only path to a better life is through crime, and it > doesn't give the same adrenalin rush. However, it works at the source of > crime, and not the consequences. The way to fight crime is to stop putting 1st time offenders, drug offenses, non-violent crimes, etc. in jails AND to make consensual crimes non-crimes like they ethicaly should be. We have over a million people in jail in the US, more than any other country, the vast majority of whom shouldn't be in jail because what they did shouldn't be a crime. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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