December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: >Plea-bargaining = capitulation = self-censorship Now, Deft-Spinner Jim, you've switched from what we (you) did or did not do to what Jim did or did not do, which is what I was indelicately pointing out has been how we (you and me) self-censoringly plead our case for or against AP and USG, and thereby capitulate covertly while ineffectively protesting Jim's (and other terrorist targets') zap by USG-AP. And rightly so, what fool would want to take Jim's place, and that's what we're relieved to not be in, now that we've been shown an example. Chilled speech, it's called, finger-pointing about some fool going too far, and worse, getting caught. This time we're so pleased we didn't lose the lottery, as Shirley Jackson wrote, that we eagerly stone the winner, split some hairs, tut-tut, spin our fear and call it wisdom. Too bad that camouflaged cowardice (shrewdness) cahoots with IRS and Justice. Keep quiet about yourself, blame somebody else, luck may hold. That's what I'm doing, blaming wildly, hiding in a crowd of "we's" and now, thanks much, your equation for going along and getting ahead. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:22:01 -0500 > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd) > Now, Deft-Spinner Jim, you've switched from what we (you) > did or did not do to what Jim did or did not do, which is what > I was indelicately pointing out has been how we (you and me) > self-censoringly plead our case for or against AP and USG, > and thereby capitulate covertly while ineffectively protesting > Jim's (and other terrorist targets') zap by USG-AP. Bullshit, your Burroughs-esk not withstanding. I believe Jim Bell's AP proposal is sheer insanity with no real merit other than clear and open endorsement of anarchy. I have always said this and will always say it. However, I *do* support his right to *talk* about it all he wants. When he or others begin to *act* upon it then I say do to them exactly what they are wanting to do to others - nail their hide to a wall. Violence has one and *only* one justification - immediate self-defence. His putting stink bombs in a federal building deserves some punishment. It is nothing more than a petty childish prank and should be treated as such. Bottem line with Jim Bell, he is a selfish child who refuses to grow up. Let him reap what he sows. The federal responce to this and other forms of civil disobedience are equealy without merit. My view: neither the feds or Jim Bell have two halves of a clue to rub together. > And rightly so, what fool would want to take Jim's place, and > that's what we're relieved to not be in, now that we've been > shown an example. Chilled speech, it's called, finger-pointing > about some fool going too far, and worse, getting caught. It certainly hasn't changed my beliefs or my plans to act on them one whit. The difference is that I believe the system can be fixed, yes it will take time, yes it will require a certain level of jamming unsavory morsels of the Constitution down some tyrants throats; but it is doable. Personaly, I would not plea bargain, I would not accept a court appointed attorney, I would claim political prisoner status, and further I would immediately appeal my conviction to the Supreme Court. I say this openly and in public in order to give the Feds one of two options: leave me alone and accept my civil disobedience for what it is or let's tango in the courts and let the supreme law of the land draw the lines in the sand. My faith in the strength of this country rests in the Constitution and the ideals it stands for. For a start: 1. I oppose the current tax laws. The Constitutional amendment was *never* legaly ratified and was never intended to make individual citizens pay 40% of their taxes to support the federal govt. 2. Agencies such as NOAA, FBI, BATF, NASA, etc. are not constitutional because there is *no* section of the Constitution that delegates those issues to the feds. Per the 10th they go to the states or the people unless an amendment is enacted. 3. The DoD is currently engaging in contracts that extend over the Constitutionaly mandated 2 year limit for anything other than naval forces. They also allow the use of military personnel and equipment by civil law enforcement - a clear violation of both the letter and spirit of the Constitution. 4. I oppose the extension of the inter-state commerce clause because regulation does not imply the level of law enforcement and the use of force that is currently employeed. I further object to the apparent skipping over of the last sentence of the inter-state commerce clause which clearly invokes the 9th and 10th. 5. The 14th Amendment does *not* extend *any* protection of rights to the states - only privileges and immunities. I further believe that such extension at the state level is a bad thing. 6. The fed's interest in doctor assissted suicides is misplaced. There is *no* mandate for this to be a federal issue. 7. The use of drugs is *not* mandated by the Constitution to be a federal issue. 8. The Constitution does not allow *any* seizing of private property, legaly or illegaly gained, without compensation to the owner of that property. 9. There is a whole raft of political party rules and regulations that limit the participation in government of many smaller organizations. These limits are un-Constitutional. If you or anyone else doesn't like the way it works then get an amendment passed that changes the way the rules operate. In short my main bitch is that the Supreme Court of the US doesn't say "Ain't our problem" nearly enough and when it does speak the question it should be asking is "Does the Constitution allow this power to the federal govt. within the constraints of the 9th and 10th?". Neither Congress or the Supreme Court act in a manner to honor either the letter or the spirit of the Constitution and in particular the 9th and 10th Amendments. I believe that *every* federal law and regulation *must* be able to demonstrate its lineage from one or more sentences in the Constitution before it is applicable and legal by the 10th. Personaly, I want to bring charges against Congress and the Supreme Court of the US for actions contrary to those granted them under the Constitution. In short, I want to impeach the whole kit and kaboodle. I also want to get an amendment passed such that representation in government is related to percentages of votes cast for individual parties and not the over all winning party of the votes counted. > Keep quiet about yourself, blame somebody else, luck may hold. I not only blame myself (as well as all citizens), but I expect to do something about it over the remainder of my life. I learned several lessons from Operation Sun Devil. The most important one was that if you compromise you loose. Phiber Optik and his ilk plea bargained and he went to jail. Mentor, Erik Bloodaxe, & Steve Jackson refused and they walk around free men to this day (it's interesting that these folks are all here in Austin). > That's what I'm doing, blaming wildly, hiding in a crowd of "we's" > and now, thanks much, your equation for going along and getting > ahead. > > Not that there's anything wrong with that. There's not? You sir, don't have one whit of morality, ethics, or empathy. Let alone any sort of sense of justice or liberty. I hope your happy licking the hands of your keepers. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | | | We built your fort. We will not have it used against us. | | | | John Wayne - Allegheny Uprising | | | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Tell the fans, not the players
by Human Gus-Peter 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jam Choke, ravaging the Young and wringing the Bell, wroted: > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd) > Now, is it not true that we've self-censored ourselves into believing > Jim is just a fool, rather than a gutsy guy willing to do what most > of us will not, instead preferring covert self-censorship over the > all-too-easily opposed group-think kind. Spin-doctor alert. No need to announce yourself, Jim. Your name is in the From: header. Jim Bell plea bargained period. Had he had one iota of the 'guts' you so blithely banter about the case would be going to trial. Plea-bargaining = capitulation = self-censorship Spoken like a free man... I've sat at a lot of border crossings 'psychically willing' my sweat back into the pores of my body. I've been pulled over by the Men in Black on dark roads late at night, within sight of the towers where the Iron Curtain is personified in a chambered round which serves as a local currency price-tag on free speech. I've sat in courtrooms in which justice was an unwanted intruder and mere mention of it caused the dogs of war to growl and bare their teeth. (e.g. 'Bell' County, Texas) I've waited for interminable hours while interrogators were being brought in from distant places to shake me up, down and sideways to find a small vulnerable spot that could be ripped open with the one-sided sword of dark authority. I know the tune Bell's persecutors were playing. It is a dark and scary tune most effective when played to an audience of one. Anyone who thinks that Jim was imprisoned in America is a fool. Jim was in a Gulag, in Auschwitz, in a sweat box in a distant jungle. Bell was the target of an insidious physical, mental and emotional attack threatening the most deep-seated human impetus of all--survival. The methods used against Bell are the same methods used by despotic regimes throughout history and by the mind-benders who serve them. I've been the target of wanna-be local Nazis and I've been the target of the real McCoys. The hands pulling the strings in Jim's case were not amateur. They were the same hands that have massaged the minds of prisoners of war, defectors, political prisoners and compromised spooks. Anyone who believes that Jim received his right to legal counsel is likewise a fool. The difference between Bell's attorney and McVeigh's attorney is that established heavyweights get paid $15 million to sleepwalk their client to a conviction. The lightweights get paid with future political favors. Bell was unconstitutionally imprisoned, drugged, and subjected to sensory deprivation torture as punishment for exercising his right to think and speak freely. Anyone who attempts to justify this with weak claims that Bell was 'asking for it' is also justifying McVeigh's counter-attack on the Waco murderers, who, for those of you who are paying attention, are continuing to 'ask for it.' The Sympatico AP-BOT received bets on the times of demise of even some of the lowliest government paperwork shufflers involved in Jim's case. The Netcom AP-Bot received belated bets on the times of demise of *all* of the government casualties in the OKC offensive. (Definitely a political statement...) Jim's political statement *has* made a difference in the implementation of, and experimentatin with, AP-BOTs. His persecution has made those steps both real and meaningful for the participants. There is currently an AP-BOT accessible from an Eternity Server which is serving as a test of the ability of underground InterNet activity to become widespread and remain covert and untouchable in its operation. (For each unit bet on the choice of the individual, it is *required* to generate an extra unit which is automatically used to bet on the demise of the Big Guy. This requirement is designed to take the exercise beyond the realm of being merely a 'fun game.') Anyone who easily dismisses Jim Bell as a 'loon' is probably not in great danger of dropping their dime. Wavy Gravy is a loon. The Smothers Brothers were loons. Lenny Bruce, Cheech and Chong, Timothy Leary, Babba Ram Das, Ginsberg, Kerouac, Guerva, Patton... They were all capble, to a different extent, of knowing when it was safe to relax their anus, and when it was unwise to do so. When the government puts your ass in a vice and makes keeping your cheeks tight a condition of loosening it, the decision to spit or sing, or merely to remain passive, is an individual decision. It does not increase my respect for anyone if they choose to use someone else's trials and tribulations as a stick to beat their own tough-guy drum. Just as there are no athiests in foxholes, there are no tough guys in Gulags. There are only survivors...and not all who leave alive are survivors. Plain and simple: Jim Bell is a political pri$oner of the men, women and children who steal your money at gunpoint. Jim Bell's human and civil rights were violated more over vague public speech involving those who control the money spigot than were those of Terry McNichols over the violent deaths of over a hundred citizens. God help us all if anyone ever bombs the Treasury. UncleMonger

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Re: Where is the c-p traffic?
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 12 Dec 97 at 22:48, Jim Choate wrote: > > Am I the only one to notice that traffic has dropped from about 100 > > messages/day to only a few? > You are getting *lots* of bounces if you were getting anything > like 100 messages per day. You're right. My number was high. On actual count, heavy days ran to 40-70 while light days varied all over the lower landscape. Pardon me all to hell for being EIGHTEEN BILLION ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE OFF, putz. Is 70 "anything like 100?" Or is it that _you_ have been missing the majority of list traffic and think c-p is a low-volume list, hmmm? Wouldn't that be choice? I suppose the other mail in my twice-daily 50-or-so message downloads _could_ have been the replies from heads of state and other annoyance mail I get. With so many filters for spam and high list noise it's difficult to keep track, but I'm accustomed to seeing more than 10 messages a day from this list. Seeing the c-p traffic drop to 10-15 messages per day for a few days caused me to suspect something might have been wrong. Nothing ever goes wrong, though, does it? Silly me! > > Does anyone know what is broken? > > At this point either your arithmetic or your memory. Either > way, it sounds like a personal problem. You're _so_ helpful! Courteous, too! I'll bet you have a lot of really good, close friends -- you know, the kind who wouldn't tell you if your hair is on fire. > > Does anyone care? Is the whole c-p list a giant MITM being run > > against a very few of us who are the only human participants? > > Damn, found out. Yeah, yeah. Your punishment in the afterlife will be to discover that this whole universe was really just a simulation to provide window dressing around the amusing Jim Choate personality module and to endure an eternity of junior high school students playing your own most embarrassing moments back into your trapped consciousness and watching the Squirm-o-Meter peg. Those private bathroom moments will no doubt win a lot of laughs. _I_ can be nasty when it's called for, but you're just plain ol' bitter. > > Isn't it odd that many key contributors to the list coincidentally > > live near nondescript neighborhood houses that bristle with > > antennae and are regularly visited by black helicopters and large > > unmarked vans? No, I didn't think so either. That's probably an > > unrelated operation. > Just exactly what kind of drugs are you taking? There is a > house rule you *must* bring enough for everyone. Yours have apparently accomplished a chemical humorectomy. That whooshing sound you hear is the humor flying like a U-2 over your head. Twisted humor, to be sure, but humor. In any case the house rule doesn't benefit you. Your severe swings preclude further ad hoc medication. > No helicopters, vans, jack-booted thugs, or anything else > around here dude. Get a grip! I'll bet you thought MIB was a pseudo documentary produced by the UFO crowd, huh? > Don't know about an opinion, a paranoia induced > hallucination for sure. Go back to your machines. They're humorless, too, except when one lets the blue smoke leak out just to piss you off. You know about the blue smoke, don't you? It's the essential ingredient that they seal into all electronic gadgets at the factory. If it ever leaks out, the gadget stops working. BlueSmokeMongerII

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No Subject
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:30 AM 12/13/97 GMT, you wrote: > >Am I the only one to notice that traffic has dropped from about 100 >messages/day to only a few? Does anyone know what is broken? >Does anyone care? Is the whole c-p list a giant MITM being run >against a very few of us who are the only human participants? it's the digital implants digital imprants digitar imprints dogatell impunts

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Airlines demanding SS #'s???
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 08:12:31 -0600 Human Gus-Peter wrote: > The government misuses my Social Security Number to steal > my money. Where do I press charges? Can I place airline > employees under citizen's arrest when they demand it? Excuse ME? When did THIS begin?

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Re: Fw: Jim Bell Sentenced (fwd)
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: A pretty convincing manifesto, as far as Constitution-thumping goes. And then, empowered by righteousness, fire-and-brimstoned: >You sir, don't have one whit of morality, ethics, or empathy. >Let alone any sort of sense of justice or liberty. > >I hope your happy licking the hands of your keepers. Damn tooting, Jim, my babe is sweetest licking and being his love slave is a pleasure. And for it, I eagerly forego morality, ethics, empathy, justice and liberty along with constitutional and biblical protection. Babe's my blackhearted PO, with two years to release. Damn, Jim, have you never lost it all where every which way was up? If not, then you don't know shit about Jim's situation, or mine, sweetheart, and whose balls you'll lick to get back to zero, not even hoping you'll get back to where you were before insane vanity took you and those who trusted you over the edge to irreversible loss and despair. Sorry to say that "Constitutional protections" might do that to you, Jim, for they are sometimes finger-licking nose-candy, bad shit that's pushed by a nasty gang of predators as morality, ethics, empathy, justice and liberty along with biblical protection. They, and other holy writs, have got a lot of innocents wasted for addictive righteousness of hustlers who use perfect grammar to hide evil. Just kidding, son, you're okay, don't EMR me. Zap my literary inchoate.

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Re: HAYEKWEB: V Postrel on Hayek
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 11:29:25 -0600 (CST) Jim Choate once again showed his clueless side (yes, he does have another side) wrote: >> Nobel laureate F.A. Hayek, one of the earliest economic >> theorists of the role of knowledge, would have recognized >> the problem. Organizations overcome such difficulties >> through compromise and negotiation, or they break down. >> But society as a whole can avoid the "knowledge problem" >> only at the cost of stamping out individuality. > It's a real pitty Hayek never tried 'cooperation' instead > of 'compromise'. It's a real pity Choate never tried reading before spewing. It would appear poor Jim doesn't have a clear idea of Hayek, and has difficulty distinguishing between any of the several voices used, and in filling in thin context. This is another case like Jim's confusion over which "Gates" Tim was referring to in a recent post. > Oh, the short-short sightedness of ego and tryanny. Well, ego anyway. > What is the line of reasoning that the *only* solution for > society is to stamp out individuality? Sounds more like > wishful thinking from some brain-dead drone with no > imagination or respect for others. Sounds like you should do some reading before you mouth off. > Perhaps he should have stuck with economics and kept away > from sociology. Perhaps you should have stuck with programming and kept away from political commentary. Scratch that -- programming requires a high degree of ability to deal with reality as it is, not as one mistakenly sees it. Your assignment is to read The Road to Serfdom and submit a 5,000 word essay to the c-p list on the subject of Hayek, the brain-dead drone. Following that you will be allowed to submit a 20,000 word essay on Jim Choate, the often-clueless and illiterate half-wit motor mouth. GetALifeMongerII

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IRS intimidation of Cypherpunks
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 14 Dec 1997 at 08:12:31 -0600 Human Gus-Peter wrote: >>> We should not let distaste/disgust for Jim's ideas and >>> tactics blind us to the important legal and constitutional >>> questions lurking beneath the surface of this investigation >>> and prosecution - there's some possibility that the IRS >>> used its investigation of Jim as a threat to other prolific >>> authors on the Internet. > The government's armed assault on Ma and Pa Bell's > residence took place within hours of an email being sent > to him containing a rough draft of a chapter of an InterNet > published manuscript describing and lauding Bell's AP system. >>> For example, copies of the press release announcing the >>> raid on Jim's home were mailed, apparently from computer >>> systems inside the IRS, to individuals active on the >>> Cypherpunks list. The IRS has never before (or since) >>> bothered to notify those individuals about criminal >>> investigations which might otherwise be of interest. > It is interesting to note that the emails from > treasury.gov constituted the same type of 'threat' that > Bell was roundly accused of by government officials and > the press. I've seen brief mention of this before, but have never seen any details on the list. Aside from Jim Choate questioning my arithmetic or attention span, would anyone be kind enough to provide pointers to information about incidents of c-p list members having received unsolicited email from .gov? Declan, did you catch a whiff of this when it happened? I would think everyone's alarm bells would have gone off and people would have been intensely interested in the messages themselves, particularly the headers. StringPullMongerII

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Bell sentencing
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- the charges of intimidating an IRS agent are felonies the stinkbomb charge in a federal building is a felony the tax evasion charges are felonies virtually all federal felonies start with 5 years and increase from there. federal misdemeanors have a sentence limitation of 1 year less 1 day. under the sentencing guidelines, it is difficult for the judge to hand down less than the specified guideline unless a deal has been cut --big time, I would say in this case. the prosecutor and public defender agreed on one year, but probation and parole asked for two years -therefore the plea bargained charge was a felony. secondly, the Feds almost always file the charge itself, plus a separate charge of conspiracy (even if they do call the rest of the conspirators "unknown") which carries the same time as the act of commission. you can rack up some serious time with Fed charges which do not seem like much until they multiple count the indictment and add conspiracy. given the exposure of this case, etc. there was a deal cut someplace. frankly, I would rather do 3 years inside instead of "highly supervised" tail --some asshole social worker cum parole officer that can literally tell you when you can shit; if he tells you to start polishing the apple, you best be getting on your knees and get on with it. you have more rights in federal prison than you do with a PO and his inferiority or dogooder complex --either way, you are his victim. personally, I think Bell was lucky --or he rolled over and the fruits of his loose tongue will start new lives for new political prisoners of the U.S. gestapo. I'll put my money on the rollover. too many unanswered questions; books returned marked "not a prisoner"; writing a letter acknowledging he was a "bad person"; and all that good stuff. Bell just snitched out; he doesn't look like the type that would do well under pressure. maybe a lot of bark, but no bite to tell the man to fuck off. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQBVAwUBNJSp2rR8UA6T6u61AQHsOAH9GXK+cHv91438Cmr9INsDCCEIbpWL9YO6 HDsWygSXSIWftoQl0+SFUL7/6mcjPlxt7N5nTlCub4zA0JQZYEHq2w== =GPPA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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