December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Ben 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me, > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later, > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them. > > > > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list. > > I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly. > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of > each line. > It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored > list. Ahh...Sorry for the flame. You're obviously not a native English speaker(the Canadian address belies your origins). Native English speakers however have no right to poor English. PS: The word you want is STILL characterize. Ben. ____ Ben Samman..................................................ben(a)edelweb.fr Paris, France Illudium Q36 Explosive Space Modulator

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Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > > > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as > > > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in > > > > > fact drunk, watch out! > > > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm > > > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though. > > > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-) > > > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial > > > parties last night. It made the craps table action seem a bit > > > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too. > > > I like an occasional Coors Lite. BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about > > one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV. > > Interesting coincidence for people on opposite coasts - the bar at > the hotel had two choices: Bud regular and Coors light. I took the > Coors. I remember when one had trouble getting Coors in NY: had something to do with their giving $$ to the Nicaragua contras and upsetting the politically correct distributors. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: About: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Ben wrote: > > > > User of the list, has no place to talk. His type, to me, > > > > Characterate those who quit something and complain later, > > > > Knowing that some people will listen to them. > > > > > > > > So what, if he decided to leave? It was his own choice > > > > And he can't just come back and say everyone who stayed is > > > > Now impelled to listen to him, just because he used to > > > > Do a bunch of posts. I don't think that hardly any of > > > > You would listened to me later if I left the list. > > > > I write good englich, but I write it verticaly, not horizontaly. > > Try reading the above up-to-down, just the first letters of > > each line. > > It may be kindegarten crypto, but it made it onto the censored > > list. Touche! S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Deloitte-Touche, e$pam plug, Moderation, Cypherpunks as a cresote bush
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > At 09:09 PM 2/5/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote: > I've been meaning to write up a long message explaining why I think I'm about > to drop off of the list. It's peculiar to spend a lot of time discussing > things with a group of people over the course of several years and then > disappear without saying why. But I'm having trouble coming up with anything > more profound than "it's not interesting any more." Philosophically, I agree > with Lucky - it looks to me like it's time to kill the list and move on to > other things. But that's not my choice to make, and perhaps other people can > still extract something useful from this. More power to them if they can. > I'm starting to think that cpunks may be similar to college, in that it's a > good thing for a few years, but if you stick around too long you just get > bitter and cranky and frustrated because the new people keep talking about > the same old problems. Don't they know we've already talked about that? But college continues because it wasn't designed for just one group of people of one time period. It was designed for everyone, and to evolve to meet future need. If the c-punks list were to survive, it too would have to evolve to meet future needs, and that evolution would be sure to disappoint a lot of the older crowd. The big difference here is that college is far from cutting edge in anything, and the list is (or could be) cutting edge. But nearly everyone so far has acknowledged that, despite improvement in signal- to-noise on the moderated list, the factor of external control has also removed much of what was interesting. Remove the control and incorporate the best of the suggestions that have been made so far, and some of that interest may return. Perhaps more importantly, if the principals could see their way to mend some fences along the way, that would restore even more confidence in the list.

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Re: [RRE FWD] PKI: 10 Public Policy Questions
by Michael Froomkin - U.Miami School of Law 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

For a more, um, nuanced view see http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin/articles/trusted.htm == The above may have been dictated via Dragon Dictate 2.51 voice recognition. Please be alert for unintentional word substitutions. A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin(a)law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warm here.

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NOW_ire
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

2-5-97: "FCC Bandwidth Forum Panelist Says Wireless Is Potential 'Wild Card' in Planning for Future Broadband Access" Suggests that wireless is the better than wire, cable, or satellite for future communications by bypassing their technological and environmental limitations. "GTE Wireless Launches Long-Anticipated CS-CDPD Service; Other Cellular Carriers Continue to Reject Hybrid Approach" A variation from CDMA and TDMA. ----- NOW_ire And the FCC Broadband Forum report cited in the first article at: http://jya.com/fcc970123.htm (322K)

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Cypherpunks spread chain letters
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Now the punks are sending me "good luck" letters... What a bunch of losers. No wonder they bend over for Gilmore. > St. Jude > > Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic. This > paper was sent to you for good luck. The original copy is in New England. I > has been around the world nine times. The Luck has been sent to you. You > will receive good luck in four days. This is no joke. You will receive it i > the mail. send copies to people that you think need good luck. Don't send > money as fate has no price. Do not keep this letter. It must leave your > hands in 96 hours. An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days. Joe > Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain. While in the > Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter. H > failed to circulate the letter. However, before he death, she won $50,000 in > a lottery. The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to > mail this letter. Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what > happens in four days. The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b > Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America. Since the copy must > make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your > friends and associates. After a few days you will get a surprise. This is > true even though you are not superstitious. So note the following: > Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958. He asked his secretary to make > twenty copies and send them out. A few days later he won the lottery of 2 > million dollars. Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and > forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job. Later, > after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies. A few days late > he got a better job. > Please send no money. Please don't ignore this. IT DOES WORK. > > > > St. Jude > > Kiss someone you love when you get this letter and make magic. This > paper was sent to you for good luck. The original copy is in New England. I > has been around the world nine times. The Luck has been sent to you. You > will receive good luck in four days. This is no joke. You will receive it i > the mail. send copies to people that you think need good luck. Don't send > money as fate has no price. Do not keep this letter. It must leave your > hands in 96 hours. An Air Force officer received $70,000 in four days. Joe > Elliot received $40,000 and lost it because he broke the chain. While in the > Philippines, Gene Wolf lost his wife six days after receiving this letter. H > failed to circulate the letter. However, before he death, she won $50,000 in > a lottery. The money was transferred to him four days after he decided to > mail this letter. Please make twenty copies of this letter and see what > happens in four days. The chain comes from South Venezuela and was written b > Saint Anthony Decroc, a missionary from South America. Since the copy must > make a tour of the world, you must make twenty copies and send them to your > friends and associates. After a few days you will get a surprise. This is > true even though you are not superstitious. So note the following: > Constantine Dens received the chain in 1958. He asked his secretary to make > twenty copies and send them out. A few days later he won the lottery of 2 > million dollars. Andy Doddit, and office employee, received a letter and > forgot it had to leave his hands within 96 hours, he lost his job. Later, > after finding the letter again, he mailed out twenty copies. A few days late > he got a better job. > Please send no money. Please don't ignore this. IT DOES WORK. > > > > --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies (fwd)
by Ray Arachelian 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 00:18:18 -0500 From: Salvatore Denaro <sal(a)panix.com> To: 'Ray Arachelian' <ray(a)earthweb.com> Subject: True story, Fly the Obsfucted Skies I was at the airport, checking in at the gate. An airport employee asked me (and I quote) "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?" I thought about it. I scratched my goatee. I said: "If it was without *my* knowledge... how would *I* know about it?" He smiled. He nodded his head, knowingly. He then gave me this cryptic reply, "That's why we ask." -- Salvatore Denaro "The only difference between me and a madman sal(a)panix.com is that I am not mad." -- Salvador Dali

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FinCEN hates cybercash, who 'da thunk it...
by Derrick Storren 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Big brother, Morris, at FinCEN sees a criminal behind every cyber dollar. The sky is falling, the sky is falling, it's raining cyber cash! Artilce follows :) ****************** _G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering_ Copyright © 1997 Nando.net Copyright © 1997 Agence France-Presse PARIS (Feb 6, 1997 11:30 a.m. EST) - Money-laundering fighters from key industrial countries and leading Asian financial centers are looking into ways of countering use of the Internet and "smart cards" to clear proceeds from criminal activities, officials said Thursday. The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), set up following a Group of Seven initiative at their l989 summit, called in a lengthy report for closer cooperation and coordinated efforts to fight money laundering, especially in regard to new electronic payments technologies. The report noted that these technologies were still "in their infancy" and said it was "premature to consider prescriptive solutions to theoretical problems." But Stanley Morris of the United States Treasury, who chaired a FAFT working group which drafted the report, told a news conference that law enforcement agencies would face 'very major new challenges' if new technology moves the world "to a cashless society, beyond banks, cash and borders." He said the group's meeting, held in Paris last November, was the first time an international organization has examined "the implications of e-money - electronic money - or cyber payments." The group had for the first time examined "not only criminal activity as we see it" at present, but "what kind of crominal activites might occur as we approach the new payments technologies relying on the revolution in microchips and .. changes in payments services generally." Morris, who heads the U.S. Treasury's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), said cash had become "a significant problem" for criminal groups, which find it increasingly difficult to channel their criminal proceeds into the banking system, at least in FATF countries. "We find a clear move away from direct dealing with banks to non-bank institutions, including bureaux de change money order sellers, and even professional services like lawyers and accountants," he said. The group had also seen "the realities of economic globalization," he said, adding that financial activities are "poorly controlled by the nation states." Morris said the working group had therefore invited representatives of the high technology industry now working on the new payments technology which was still "in the prototype stage" without any clear indication as to the direction they might take. "We wanted to sit down with the industry as experts on money laundering enforcement.... to let them know now what kinds of systems would cause us problems and give the bad guys new opportunities," he said. The purpose was to seek to encourage development of these technologies "in ways that do not provide a new forum for money laundering," he said. The FATF was essentially a preventive business, Morris added. "We do not measure our success simply on arrests and (money) seizures." FATF chairman Fernando Carpentieri, the Director General of the Italian Treasury, said drug trafficking remained a key source of criminal proceeds which crime groups were seeking to "legalize." He said the Task Force, consisting mainly of OECD member countries, as well as Hongkong, Singapore, the Gulf Cooperation Council and the European Commission, was not at present considering admitting further members to preserve its efficiency. But it was working with the authorities of countries throughout the world to secure the broadest possible implementation of the anti-money laundering measures it has recommended.> G7 groups frets over electronic money laundering

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Blessing in Disguise? (H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet PrivacyProtection Act of 1997")
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This attempted legislation (see forward, below) is a blessing in disguise. It's just more proof that book-entry commerce isn't going to work on the net in the long run. SET looks like it's having problems with Japanese commerce rules, which is another example of this problem. Cash settlement between blinded pseudonyms fixes all of these problems. I like to joke that if digital commerce is flight, then book entry settlement is Boyle's Law, and cryptography is Bernoulli's law, viz, + Sending a credit card in the clear is jumping off a cliff. The height of the cliff you jump off is related to the number of times you send an unencrypted credit card number and the amount you charge. Credit card companies aren't going to be guaranteeing all those trades much longer if they lose too much money. + First Virtual is a tethered balloon. You're up in the air, but you don't know what for, because all the action is happening on the ground. ;-). + SET, Cybercash/coin, SSL, and other encrypted-channel book entry methods, is a derigeble. You're flying, but you're using minimally strong crypto like little aerodynamic fins to push the giant gas bag of book-entry settlement around. + Digital bearer certificate technology, like ecash, or MicroMint, or Millicent, is an airplane. It "flys" with "wings" of strong cryptography, which gives us reputation capital and enforcement, and instantly settled microintermediated transactions. Thus, like aerodynamic flight, it will be faster, cheaper, and easier to use than book-entry "derigible" transaction methods. Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 11:24:09 EST Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> From: "Jonathan I. Ezor" <jezor(a)NEWMEDIALAW.COM> Subject: Congressional Bill worse for 'Net than CDA? (crosspost) Comments: To: wwwac(a)echonyc.com, noend(a)laguna.taos.com, isales(a)mmgco.com, imarcom(a)internet.com To: CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM Sorry for the crossposting, but I felt this one might be important enough to do it. The following is a shortened version of an article I've written for my firm's client newsletter about H.R. 98, the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997", introduced by Rep. Bruce Vento (D. MN) on January 7, 1997. As the article describes, if the bill were enacted as drafted, Internet commerce could conceivably be stopped dead in its tracks, along with most of the reduced-fee-for-demographics online services. Privacy is quite important, and many of us have worked and are working extremely hard to protect privacy appropriately while still providing convenient services to users, but this bill is way beyond a reasonable approach. I haven't seen much discussion about this bill, but it's now in committee, and the time to act may be upon us. Feel free to e-mail/call/fax/talk to me with any further questions. I look forward to your feedback. {Jonathan} Jonathan I. Ezor New Media Attorney, Davis & Gilbert, 1740 Broadway, New York, NY 10019 Tel: 212-468-4989 Fax: 212-468-4888 E-mail: jezor(a)newmedialaw.com -----------------------------Cut here------------------------------- Congress Tackles Internet Privacy Recently, there has been significant press coverage over real and rumored revelations of personal information such as Social Security numbers by online services, including the alleged availability (later shown to be untrue) of mothers' maiden names and Social Security numbers on LEXIS' P-Trak database, and various governmental bodies have held hearings on issues of online privacy. On January 7, 1997, Representative Bruce F. Vento (D. MN) introduced the "Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997," (H.R. 98) This bill provides that "an interactive computer service shall not disclose to a third party any personally identifiable information provided by a subscriber to such service without the subscriber's prior informed written consent." It requires online services to provide an express opt-out for subscribers at any time, prohibits services from knowingly distributing false information about users, and also mandates giving subscribers access to the information maintained about them for review, updates and corrections, as well as the identity of the party receiving the information, at no charge. The bill authorizes the Federal Trade Commission to "to examine and investigate an interactive computer service to determine whether such service has been or is engaged in any act or practice prohibited by this Act," and to issue a cease and desist order. Notably, it also provides that an individual may sue the violator directly without having to go through the FTC. As a general matter, this bill enacts the practice of many online services and sites, and the position of most self-regulatory industry groups, by asking consent before revealing personally-identifiable information. But the bill goes well beyond the ordinary industry practice by requiring "prior informed written consent," which is defined in this bill as "a statement-- (A) in writing and freely signed by a subscriber; (B) consenting to the disclosures such service will make of the information provided; and (C) describing the rights of the subscriber under this Act." What this could conceivably mean is that services which have all of their registration online may be unable to fulfill this requirement. Additionally, the bill is unclear about which online services will be subject to its provisions. It defines "interactive computer service" as "any information service that provides computer access to multiple users via modem to the Internet." This certainly covers dedicated Internet service providers (ISP's) and combination proprietary/Internet services like America Online and MSN. The bill may also cover services which depend on their ability to reveal certain information to advertisers in exchange for offering free Internet e-mail to their users. Beyond that, purely Web-based services may fall into the purview of this bill, depending on whether providing access via modem requires that the modem dial directly into the service in question or not. Theoretically, this bill could even prevent online purchases absent a signed authorization form from each purchaser, because a service would have to reveal the name and address of the purchaser to the seller in order for the goods to be delivered. Even more troubling, the bill does not even provide an exception for information shared between a service owner and the company owning the computer hosting the service, regardless of whether there is a contractual obligation for confidentiality, since the hosting company has access to the information collected by the service about its users. As with other bills of this type, it is important for any company intending to offer Internet-related services to individuals to follow and perhaps attempt to affect the path of the Consumer Internet Privacy Protection Act of 1997, since it could have significant impact on planned services, revenue sources and per-subscriber costs. For those interested in forestalling this type of governmental action, the best response may be to accelerate self-regulatory initiatives to deal with the valid concerns of consumers who may be providing information about themselves and their buying habits, either in the process of registration or while using the service. At the same time, the self-regulatory bodies can create rules based on the actual business practices and realities of their members, rather than drafting with a broad brush as Congress does in so many instances. If companies are going to be able to take the greatest economic advantage of the interactivity of the Internet as opposed to traditional broadcast and print media, there needs to be some way of legally and ethically utilizing information provided by subscribers in order both to enhance the subscribers' experience and to gain revenue through appropriate business relationships with advertisers, retailers, and others who may wish access to consumers. Copyright 1997 Jonathan I. Ezor, Davis & Gilbert. All rights reserved. Jonathan I. Ezor is an attorney with Davis & Gilbert in New York City, practicing new media and computer law, focusing on the advertising industry. Mr. Ezor can be reached at jezor(a)newmedialaw.com. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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