December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Question for remailer operators
by dmandl＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

For the anon remailer operators out there: I'm looking for figures on the average number of messages that pass through the different remailers a day (or week, or whatever). This is for an article I'm working on to be published in a local paper here in NYC. I'd appreciate any numbers I can get from any of you. Estimates are fine if you don't have exact figures. (Sorry to spam the list like this. It's just that I'm sure my list of remailers is very out of date, and even if it's not, I wouldn't know how to reach the operators of most of them.) Many thanks. --Dave. -- Dave Mandl dmandl(a)panix.com

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Re: Less Flaming, More Civility
by amanda＠intercon.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> C'punks, when this list started we were a bunch of idealistic privacy > freaks. Look who's on the list now: the developers of cutting edge Internet > software. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive :). And from this point of view, I have to say that for all of my complaints about the specifics of various things Netscape has put forth, I cannot fault them for trying to improve the status quo. One thing that everyone has in common here is that we all believe that the issues we discuss are important, and that it's worth trying to solve the problems. This is in part, I think, why tempers flare from time to time--I know this was true in my case. Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation

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Re: PGP 2.7
by NetSurfer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, DNA wrote: > I keep seeing pgp 2.7 in public key & sig blocks. > > Where do we get it? Viacrypt. It is the commercial version of 2.6.x - -NetSurfer #include <standard.disclaimer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> == = = |James D. Wilson |V.PGP 2.7: 512/E12FCD 1994/03/17 > " " o " |P. O. Box 15432 | finger for full PGP key > " " / \ " |Honolulu, HI 96830 |====================================> \" "/ G \" |Serendipitous Solutions| Also NetSurfer(a)sersol.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBLvB4nyoZzwIn1bdtAQFBKgF8Cpy4syrgzPe7Q4vQ7elW/7gvcK+3rfwJ byzKrS8TF7rwL1eLiVZfW+qolOyMB2TG =svxJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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voice over SLIP?
by erc＠khijol.xmission.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This might be somewhat off-topic, but could someone send me a list of ftp'able software for doing voice over SLIP? I'd prefer linux-based software, but DOS-based would work, too... Thanks very much! -- Ed Carp, N7EKG Ed.Carp(a)linux.org, ecarp(a)netcom.com Finger ecarp(a)netcom.com for PGP 2.5 public key an88744(a)anon.penet.fi ** PGP encrypted email preferred! ** "What's the use of distant travel if only to discover - you're homeless in your heart." --Basia, "Yearning"

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Re: FV fine print
by Nathaniel Borenstein 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Excerpts from fv: 15-Dec-94 FV fine print Eric Hughes(a)remailer.net (403) > * YOU shall retain computer data of all sales for at least > three years from the date of the transaction. In the event > you are not able to store such information, you may contact > infohaus-info(a)fv.com to make storage arrangements. > Interpretation is left to the reader. FYI, this is a direct carryover from the standard terms & conditions of a Visa/MasterCard merchant account. Basically, this is a legal necessity to process inquiries from the cardholder's issuing bank, etc. You'll note that we don't say you have to provide the information to us, merely that you have to keep it -- that way, if there's a court action requiring us to provide the information, we can point out that you are required to have the information. If you haven't kept it, you won't have nearly as much of a problem with us as with the government. In any event, the most we can do is say, "oh, you violated our terms and conditions, you can't be an FV seller any more." What we're doing here, in essence, is allowing ANYONE to function as a Visa/MC merchant, with the addition of the 90 day hold and a few other things. In order to do that, our terms and conditions have to ensure that you comply with the Visa/MC terms and conditions, that's all. -- Nathaniel

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Re: FV & PGP (was Re: First Virtual email security)
by Nathaniel Borenstein 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Excerpts from fv: 15-Dec-94 Re: FV & PGP (was Re: First.. NetSurfer(a)gold.chem.hawa (1237*) > Without cryptography how exactly are you going to protect my credit card > numbers from sniffer-snoopers and crackers? Either you will send the > credit card text in the clear, or it will be encrypted somehow. Or perhaps > you will have customers call you over the phone to give you their credit > card info? We NEVER put your credit card number on the Internet. It is entered ONCE via telephone, and after that it is never needed directly -- people sell you things using your FV account-id, which does not have the same security properties as a credit card number. For more information, please send mail to info(a)fv.com or check out our web pages at http://www.fv.com. - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBLvCB4CoZzwIn1bdtAQHLuAGAzvgG7jYAqpyHC/HD2NCmN3DkxnCeGT6J 3opxp30Uyo0T/5me04hlzvYe4A6IEDbA =yQOr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: FV & PGP (was Re: First Virtual email security)
by NetSurfer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 15 Dec 1994 nsb(a)nsb.fv.com wrote: > Moreover, if we supported PGP today, we might indirectly lend > credibility to what we perceive as the incorrect belief that > cryptography is NECESSARY for commerce. Because we see cryptography as > helpful, but not necessary, we aren't going to support PGP right away, > but will probably add such support when a large enough portion of our > customer base wants it and can make use of it. Without cryptography how exactly are you going to protect my credit card numbers from sniffer-snoopers and crackers? Either you will send the credit card text in the clear, or it will be encrypted somehow. Or perhaps you will have customers call you over the phone to give you their credit card info? - -NetSurfer #include <standard.disclaimer> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> == = = |James D. Wilson |V.PGP 2.7: 512/E12FCD 1994/03/17 > " " o " |P. O. Box 15432 | finger for full PGP key > " " / \ " |Honolulu, HI 96830 |====================================> \" "/ G \" |Serendipitous Solutions| Also NetSurfer(a)sersol.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBLvB6FCoZzwIn1bdtAQE9PAF/W2kx2n8l+Qz9Z/51MVQqjjPgGPdQRK8p WFPmh42CywQKiUjjg2qhqPrmzzz6V91r =6zTt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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1984 shirt
by 'Kasey Uthurusamy' 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > Hi, > > Do you know where I could order 2 XXL shirts? These are the ones that > say '1984 ....we're behind schedule'... > > Thanks! :) > > Kurgan > -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _O_ "Ah...the KURGAN...he kurgan(a)gnu.ai.mit.edu \/\ /\/=<---- is the strongest of the punisher(a)ccwf.cc.utexas.edu * immortals...." kaseyu(a)acad.stedwards.edu / \ _/ |_ "INVICTUS MANEO" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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E-Lets
by Claborne, Chris 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The following article has some unique ties to digital cash and what some people would like to see. In summary it is a description of bartering being used in Europe the removes money and replaces it with "Lets". Money no good? May I be the first to coin "E-Lets" :) ================================================================ >From "The European" 23-29 September 1994. Title: "Money no good? Try bartering" ... Additional reporting by Betrice Newbery. The Single Market was launched with the Single European Act of 1987, and with it the vision of a single European currency. But while governments seek a future of trading in ecus, people across the continent are looking to the past - to the days when bartering was the way of the world. Local Exchange Trading Systems (lets) are a form of moneyless trading, with more in common with 19th century anarchism than late 20th-century capitalism. The inhabitants of Stroud, a village in the west of England, can now pay for legal advice from a solicitor in "strouds" as well as sterling. In Madrid, masseurs and furniture removers accept both valle kas and pesetas. In Berlin, talents or deutschmarks are used to pay for babysitting or carpentry. Lets are proving remarkably popular. In Britain, there are more than 200 systems involving as many as 20,000 people. In Spain, the success of the Trueque Lets in Madrid has served as a modle for similar systems to be created in Barcelona, Alicante and the Canary Islands. Switzerland has the Troc de Service in Onex and Demark has a "Ring of Exchange". They could even spread to eastern Europe. A pilot scheme was started this summer in the city of Magdeburg in east Germany. "Because of high unemployment and limited capital, Lets could help people in the east to use their skills and talents," said Hugo Godscalk of Paysys, a German constancy firm which specializes in forms of payment. Although the organization of each Lets is discreetly different they all share a basic tenet: that by tapping local skills and spending power, it is possible to improve the economic and psychological health of the community. They work by creating a local currency, the "bobbin" in Manchester, for example, and encouraging local people and business to accept that currency in pay-ment, or part-payment, of goods and services. Joining a Lets is a quick and painless process. On payment of an initial, one-off registration fee (mainstream money), and a negligible annual administration fee (local money), you are issued with an account in the local currency, a cheque book and a local directory, which lists the goods an services available. You are then free, for example, to start paying for your gardner or bying your groceries in local currency. A small levy is charged on each transaction to cover the administration costs of the system and to pay the salary of the administrator. However, there are no interest charges when you go into debt and no restrictions on credit. While their simplicity makes them accessible, the growing popularity of alternative currencies has less to do with alternatives then the lack of them. Recession, unemployment and the high interest rates have left many people unable to earn, borrow, or spend conventional money. The Trueque (meaning barter) in Madrid was founded in January by Dan Wagman, an American who has been living in Spain for 16 years. "The present system of conventional money is not working too well," he says. "in Spain, 20 per cent of people are unemployed. It is a terrible waste of talent and time. Lets give the unemployed the chance to use their skills and the impoverished immediate access to services that they couldn't otherwise afford." Liz Shepard, who runs the national coordinating organization, Lets Link, in Britain, agrees: "one in six United Kingdom households were experiencing severe debt problems because of high interest rates and recession. An interest-free, non- profit-making system appeals to them." Christine Schoeb and Carlo Jelmini were both students in Geneva when they set up the Troc de Service in Onex as part of their course work. Another ten groups in Bern, Basel, Winterthur and elsewhere operate their own scheme based on talents. One of the founders, Simcha Piwnik, said: "We get professional workers advertising a whole range of services, from electricians to furniture restorers to kitchen-fitters. You can buy furniture, bicycles, organic vegetables - anything. It almost makes traditional street markets redundant." Yet the proliferation of Lets has not been problem-free. According to Michael Jacobs, an economist at Lancaster University and author of "Green Economy", Lets must overcome two main difficulties if they are to survive. "the first is common to all voluntary organisations: will enough people join and remain involved to make them work? The second is peculiar to Lets: is there a tendency for people to leave the local system once they secure employment within the mainstream economy? If so, they may well fail unless there is a continual supply of new members." While survival can be difficult, growth can prove equally problematic. As they have become more wide-spread, Lets have attracted the attention of national treasuries who are con cerned that local currencies could be exploited as a way of avoiding paying tax. Moreover, growth has prompted fears among Lets users that people could accumulate sizable debts and then leave the community without repaying. In August, more than 60 people attended a conference near Montpellier in southern France to discuss ways of introducing Lets to that country. In Dessau, in Germany, a recent conference relulted in the setting up of six new systems. Henk van Arkel, from Utrecht, who runs a series of systems in the Netherlands, was one of the participants, "We are planning with the Irish, Flemish and German and probably the UK systems, for international co-operation across Europe," he said. "We do need more exchange of ideas and improvements. But we are not going to link the currencies. The most important part of the idea is the local aspect." There are, however, sign that Lets are starting to encroach on some of the traditional functions of conventional money. Trading between groups, for example, is just beginning in some areas. But it will be a long time before they rival the ecu. ... __o .. -\<, chris.claborne(a)sandiegoca.attgis.com ...(*)/(*). CI$: 76340.2422 PGP Pub Key fingerprint = A8 FA 55 92 23 20 72 69 52 AB 64 CC C7 D9 4F CA Avail on Pub Key server. PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome!

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On criticizing SSL, and insecure transport layers
by rishab＠dxm.ernet.in 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

kipp(a)mcom.com: > Is [SSL] insecure? If so, how? > > Is there some cipher techonology that it absolutely must support? If > so, which one? why? While I'm not going to say anything about SSL's qualities as a secure transport layer as such (I've not looked at it carefully enough) I think that the criticisms are on larger issues. 1. Standards - the reinventing the wheel criticism; if other methods for more or less the same thing exist (and swIPe source has been around for all to test to their hearts' content) why try a new one? This point seems to have mutated into general criticism of NCom's attitude to / knowledge of IETF proceedings and the technology 2. Security - the basic insecurity of _any_ transport layer. "If Netscape had to come up with a new secure protocol, why did they choose the transport layer?" The transport layer is insecure because: it is less under the control of a user, it happens 'automagically'; it is at a lower level and so generally implemented by central authorities - sysadmins etc, and does not suit the web of trust model (nor does X.509) which is much better outside dictatorships; it is provided by the telco or net service provider who, as I suggested earlier, are prone to arm-twisting by the authorities, whether by legislation, or while 'cooperating'. Transport layer security does not provide data authentication, it only provides server authentication; nor does it provide data security and privacy between users, it only provides network security. To rebut Kipp's favourite justification, insecure transmission of passwords: transport layer security does _not_ improve password security/privacy, but only ensures that once a plaintext password is received by the transport layer, usually at a service provider, then it will not be intercepted. Secure transmission of passwords could (but as far as I know is not widely) be implemented at the client level, through DH handshaking or something, which would ensure a completely secure and _private_ transaction. Transport layer security is nice because it is conveniently automatic and transparent, but it can lead to a false sense of security for precisely that reason. Of course these are quintessentially Cypherpunk objections. A bank, or Singapore, would be quite comfortable with such a system for internal networks. "We know everything about you that we need to know" - Coleta Brueck, IRS ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Rishab Aiyer Ghosh "In between the breaths is rishab(a)dxm.ernet.in the space where we live" rishab(a)arbornet.org - Lawrence Durrell Voice/Fax/Data +91 11 6853410 Voicemail +91 11 3760335 H 34C Saket, New Delhi 110017, INDIA

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