December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

ANNOUNCE: SF Bay Area Physical Meeting 8 Oct 94
by hughes＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: SF Bay Area Physical Cypherpunks Meeting When: Saturday, 8 Oct 94 12:00 noon - 6:00 p.m. Where: Silicon Graphics, Mt. View (directions below) (Provisional) Theme: Intellectual "Property" Mark Hosler of Negativland will be our (provisional) guest. He's told me he's planning on showing, but I've not been able to confirm with him in the last few days. For those of you who don't know what Negativland is, they're a music group who got into a fracas with Island Records and their own label SST over a recording Negativland did entitled "U2". Mark/Negativland have a new book coming out called _Fair Use_, which is a complete history of the whole affair with both commentary and a complete set of primary source documents. Our theme, therefore, will be intellectual property, information distribution, sampling, etc., with, of course, applications to cryptography. We will also, as always, welcome and expect topics and presentations from the attendees. If you've got something you want to present, you've got the time here. If you've got something you want to discuss, you can have the floor to lead a discussion of it. All are welcome, whether or not you've ever been to a cypherpunks meeting before or not. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- DIRECTIONS: Silicon Graphics, Inc. Building 5 (SGI Cafeteria) 2025 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA >From 101 take Shoreline East. This is towards Shoreline Amphitheatre. It's also "logical east", and points more north that east. (That is, it's east with respect to 101 North, which points west near the exit.) If you're coming in on 101 South, you'll cross over the bridge. Continue on Shoreline and go past a whole bunch of other SGI buildings. Turn right onto Steirlin Court at the big red metal sculpture. There will be even more SGI buildings surrounding you--take note of the building numbers. Go almost to the end of this street. Building 5 is on the right.

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IRC Encryption
by prig0011＠gold.tc.umn.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

There was a thread a while back about encrypted conversations on channel #freedom on irc. I came across the software I believe they are using. Its a package called Circ, and it is available from archives of comp.sources.misc volume 38 issue 10. It is interesting in that it uses RSA for key exchange, and triple DES for the encryption. The Circ package includes an earlier implementation "socks" which is a stand alone encrypted irc client. I think this is what they use on #freedom. This is an interesting tool for a couple of reasons. irc can be as anonymous as you want to make it. There are ways of hiding what site you're coming from, your real username, you can change your nick often as you want, and it's got a high enough usage that you can lose yourself in a crowd. It supports background file transfers. You can create a channel and lock it to uninvited people. It is supported pretty much net-wide, if you can telnet, you can irc. Interesting stuff, and I'll be playing more with it in the near future. BTW: my nick is cryptical on irc. :)

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REMAIL: Chaos remailer statistics
by Chael Hall 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Chaos remailer statistics from 12:38am 08/24/94 through 11:59pm 10/05/94: Total Messages msgs per day Percent ------- ------- ------- To/From CA domain: 46 1.1 1.69 To/From COM domain: 818 19.2 30.00 To/From EDU domain: 2130 50.1 78.11 To/From GOV domain: 3 0.1 0.11 To/From ORG domain: 326 7.7 11.95 To/From US domain: 381 9.0 13.97 Forbidden (includes anXX(a)anon.penet.fi) 8 0.2 0.29 Total messages processed: 2727 64.1 Note that the percentages will not add up to 100% because anything that crosses over, for example, the EDU to ORG line will show up in both categories. Average messages per month would be in the area of 1923. If you find this useful, let me know. I will put it into a script and have it auto-posted... Maybe. Chael -- Chael Hall, nowhere(a)chaos.bsu.edu

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Re: He's dead Jim (Chomsky)
by nobody＠cass156.ucsd.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

First and foremost I would like to publicly apologize to Mr. James A. Donald... re-reading my intial post to this thread, I feel that I was out of line in some places. As is the current topic of the MEME thread, I would like to stress that one should attack the message and *not* the messenger. Mr. Donald (*not* McDonald) is neither a fascist, nor Hitler, nor anything else than however he chooses to define himself. His views, however, *are* open to interpretation. As it stands, I respect Mr. Donald's views (and for the most part, I agree with him...on other things ;) ). The second and last point I would like to make is that quotes to *back up* an argument are more than helpful, and would save much bandwidth. If Mr. Donald would like to continue his part in this thread, either publicly or privately, I am more than willing to discuss Chomsky (or anything for that matter), as long as I have something tangible to discuss. The same applies to anyone else who wishes to discuss Chomsky.... Like many of us, I get over 500 pieces of email a day--and I try to read every bit of it; I think one piece of footnoted or otherwise appended email is worth 20 pieces of the Hitler-calling type. Mi taku oyasin... _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ It's dangerous to be right _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/ when the government is _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ wrong. _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ --Voltaire _/

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Re: crypto game idea
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim McCoy writes: > > Jim Miller writes: > > > > Crypto-Magic: The Gathering > [making an online version of the game using crypto tools...] > > > > Don't worry, someone is already working on it... :) > I'd be very impressed if you guys pulled this off. Not to imply I think it can't be done, just that it would be a pretty complex system and success would be impressive. Can you describe a little of how you're handling the cards? How do you keep players from forging cards? How does a player transfer ownership of a card to another player? What's your mechanism for preventing "double-trading"? Are card trades anonymous, or fully identified? How do you keep somebody from drawing an individual card from their deck more than once? How do you prevent somebody from stacking their deck, without revealing the contents of the deck? Does the software evaluate the effects of the cards (encapsulating the rules of the game), or does the software just provide the tools for handling digital trading cards? Cool stuff. Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

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Re: Government vs. Markets
by samuel.kaplin＠warehouse.mn.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- :>Um, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes? :Screw that. Grow your own (I do -- and if I can, in Midtown Manhattan, :then damned near anybody can). The question, Todd is are they edible? The last time I was in Manhattan, the air pollution just about did me in. (mid-July, 95 degrees in the shade) But then again these tomatoes are native New Yorkers, so maybe attitude is a factor in their edibility. ;) Sam - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.1 mQCNAy5pUekAAAEEAKrDj64Zj9AJU+gC7/Ivdk8b1ef6a1T9K5CGFeu1yFDSXLyD DLIdGunZR/4ilosLMxdlZcNqPwZ3HgxL+Gk3y2SwYfqKpeWExWPgb696lgzf2BRC tED15ZAwi3UDIkcouv2PBiDwPNUUmnLb5diDXdA3qtALb+XzlwpnimeWAf3FAAUT tCFTYW11ZWwgS2FwbGluIDwrMSAoNjEyKSA1MzAtNzMxNj6JAJUCBRAuaVLjQqfV nzRSzxkBAcXuA/47yIN+sltMyIRqCgUZz/gubdI6LUcpFsTcXsFWppROpAWFPJv0 J9z/UoP1kjJ+nrAAizuKuhmC5eg5OOxUE+tUgSPl6hAtu2xJYmKtCbQpxF0sG8ni 4e8I8Zsk5vcopO5Vub96CiVgPjI5vITCb32kcLKI1yyFaztbHdtOasUthrQuU2Ft dWVsIEthcGxpbiA8c2FtdWVsLmthcGxpbkB3YXJlaG91c2UubW4ub3JnPg== =J2S+ - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fido: Sam Kaplin 1:282/1018 | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard Compuserve: 75240,131 | outside a Roman brothel. samuel.kaplin(a)warehouse.mn.org | 75240,131(a)compuserve.com | Change is the only constant in the For confidential communications use PGP | Universe..."Four quarters, please." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAgUBLpQC5QpnimeWAf3FAQE1iwP8DHOTvWMLjQa7m9OiCEsQqzD5hExdFtMd 50pWyx774vE03qGLAuu/uTN3HutdkiG26WWRgnWnhZeWegHCfXJV1+kux/LJjRuP CdFaD+3AZYLQsDWxQhPOKO0KeJMobWqNGNsjiqRMoynhyyMiiV/Pgd7QiKFQOwQU uD+CUkQxtwQ= =S+xS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Key Forfeiture, not Key Escrow
by Amanda Walker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> The Government seems to choose its terminology carefully in cases > where that terminology can affect the politics of a situation. I > suggest that we start referring to key escrow as "key forfeiture". Phil, you're brilliant. "Key forfeiture" it is. Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation

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Re: Government vs. Markets
by Amanda Walker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> A geographical monopoly with *guns*, and a mandate from the masses to > use them. I can't say that I've ever seen a Niagara-Mohawk or NYNEX > tank. The government does not have a monopoly on military force. In fact, the 2nd amendment explicitly prohibits such a monopoly, however much it has become eroded in recent decades. However, I will agree with you that a certain amount of corporate coercion goes on with government collusion (not all, however: look at Westlaw or Equifax for examples). Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation

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Dorothy
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:56 PM 10/5/94 -0700, Ed Carp wrote: >(BTW) violating every known law of security to do so. Denning, in a very >real sense, represents the attitudes of the NSA and the people controlling >this whole scheme and trying to foist it off onto people. Is she such an >idiot that she actually *believes* the nonsense she spouts? > >Is it wrong to suspect her motives, her judgement, her common sense, in >backing such a proposal? If we spend a little time thinking about it, I'm sure that we can figure out DD's psychology. If we can't understand her views (which are probably more mainstream than ours) we won't be able to understand anybody's. She is a conventional person and thinks that the monopoly of coercion exercised by the government must be maintained for the good of all. Many people share this view. As a cryptographer, she is aware of the same things that we are -- that unbreakable crypto combined with the "society on the nets" breaks this government monopoly of coercion. The point of Cypherpunks is not to change this almost universally held view of the legitmacy of "others" government (as opposed to self government). The point of cypherpunks is to *demonstrate* that the monopoly of coercion traditionally held by government has been *ended*. If you change the physical reality, people's views will change in turn. Don't be upset with DD. She hasn't killed anybody. If we're right about our analysis of the new balance of power between the individual and the state, her views don't matter. If we're wrong, her views *still* don't matter. DCF -- "Downsizing, Open Systems, and Distributed Networks for Berlin, London, Paris, Rome, Tokyo, & Washington, too." oops forgot Ottawa.

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Digital Cash: Impact of Interstate Banking Act of 1994
by Black Unicorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The Riegle-Neal Interstate Banking and Branch Efficiency Act of 1994, Electronic Banking and Digital Cash: A brief impact survey. +++ Last month the President signed into law the Riegle-Neal Interstate Banking and Branch Efficiency Act of 1994. The act is the result of almost sixteen years of attempts to revise and ease long standing restrictions on commercial banking entities. The aspects of the bill which in my opinion hold the greatest implications for electronic banking, internet banking and digital cash are the lifting of basic geographic restrictions on commercial banking are outlined below. Commenting after the bill cleared the Senate, Secretary Bentsen indicated the following: ++ Begin excerpt This legislation represents a major step forward for the American banking system that has been sought by both parties for years. Efforts to ease interstate banking and branching restrictions were proposed by the last four administrations. I applaud the bipartisan effort to enact this important legislation. Interstate banking and branching will be beneficial to banks and their customers as well as the nation's economy as a whole. This bill will allow banks to reduce expenses by structuring themselves more efficiently. It will also promote the safety and soundness of the banking system through geographic diversification, which will enable banks to better withstand regional recessions and meet the needs of customers in times of stress. Customer convenience will be greatly enhanced by eliminating arbitrary restrictions on interstate deposit taking. Competition among banks will be encouraged by making it easier for them to enter markets that are not now full competitive. [...] The [Act]: * Permits a bank holding company to acquire a bank located in any state, beginning one year after enactment. * Allows a bank to merge with a bank in another state, beginning June 1, 1997, so long as neither state has taken legislative action to prohibit interstate mergers.... [...] * Allows foreign banks to establish branches, either de novo or by acquisition and merger, in any state outside the state in which the bank has its U.S. headquarters to the same extent that a domestic bank may establish such branches.... [...] ++ End of excerpt. Since the Glass-Stegall Act, which established strict separation of commercial and investment banking services, commercial banking has suffered in the marketplace due to investment services and investment banking competition. Investment banking and banking services could often offer services resembling those offered by traditional banking without enduring the strict geographical restrictions imposed on banks. At the same time, reduced deposit insurance regulation made the cost of these services lower. Even entities like insurance companies could offer loan services, and often offer them at better rates, that banks could no longer soundly approach. The most obvious impact of geographical restrictions to the average consumer was the restriction on traditional banks in regard to accepting out of state deposits. Most readers will recognize this manifest in the inability to deposit to an account from an out of state automatic teller. While withdrawals are possible through interstate networks like Cirrus, Most, NYCE and the Military Financial Network, deposits are restricted to in state entities only and as a result associated fees of any interstate transactions are a function of the number of financial institutions which the transaction must bridge, as the local banks are institutions unable to structure their own networks to avoid middleman cost. Similarly, wire transfers are presented with an identical cost bridge, as geographic restrictions have often required the adoption of several different networks between banks instead of a single network. Costs are predictably affected. With the introduction of the Interstate Banking Act banks will be free to expand their deposit taking functions across state lines (within the general restrictions of the Act). As a result Automatic Teller Machines may soon be able to provide many of the same services as a "Full Service Bank" provided merely that they have a customer service phone attached. The foreseeable impact on Digital Cash projects as well as online and offline cash and banking systems falls within a few brackets. 1> Positive effects for start up domestic efforts associated with geographic deregulation. 2> Positive effects for depositors in general. 3> Negative effects for start up overseas efforts. 4> Negative effects for overseas expansion efforts. 5> Negative effects for digital cash generally. 1> Domestic efforts: Because limitations on interstate banking are being lifted, those projects intending to start up a full or partial service financial institution with advanced electronic transaction services will obviously be more feasible on a nation wide scale. Prospects for nation wide, fully automated and cost effective electronic banking are greatly increased with the removal of the restrictions on geographic expansion. Look to see increased interest in long term banking customer relations as banks and depositors recognize that it may no longer be necessary to change institutions when changing domiciles. An immediate expansion of automatic teller networks and associated agreements with service providers is likely. 2> Depositors in general: Can expect to transact all types of basic banking functions nationally without the necessity of a local branch of their bank being accessible. As banks begin to realize the profits from interstate banking fees directly without dilution to the institution local to the transaction, expansion of electronic networks is a likely reaction. 3> Overseas efforts: Efforts to provide depositors with access to overseas institutions will be hampered in two ways: A> Investment prospects will decrease. Investors recognizing that overseas institutions which offer services in the United States have one less advantage over domestic banks will be less likely to participate in such a venture. B> Customers recognizing that overseas institutions offering services in the United States provide few, if any, needed services that local banks cannot also accommodate will reduce depositor interest in overseas electronic banking. (Note the cyclic effect of this on potential Investors in A) 4> Overseas expansion of existing institutions to the United States. Is less likely in so far as competition among domestic banks is stronger, and the potential market share is reduced. 5> Impact on digital cash. A> Because of the depositor interest in new local banking services, depositors are less likely to be interested in digital cash potential where a domestic checking account accomplishes the same basic goal. In so far as digital cash ventures depend on the general populations interest, as compared with the interest of the "enlightened population" (in my meaning, those who understand the privacy and liquidity advantages of digital cash over traditional banking services), the market share of digital cash ventures is reduced by the number of general population more comfortable with traditional banking services. (I feel this to be a significant number). B> Note the impact on potential investors in digital cash ventures of A. Not the end of digital cash by any means, but a blow for start up efforts. Anyone interested in a much more detailed analysis of the Act, I will provide one to the list if enough e-mail interest is shown. - -uni- (Dark) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6ui iQCVAgUBLpRCzBibHbaiMfO5AQE+6gP+MskAjaFyAeUKz2XjWBV7nSSttejTxkOL wkAW4jnrFBZJZCfsvRg+UGlnTRJzzdCHdpN0k/eKDnmTpO44p9kNt4MaLyh1nOG5 OpvfTcoaFevZLIqK1PUX2xRYVCHqKOHeSmzHv8j8BfQaXAUuLncDkiL2jPqwP8+n t4IfT8zwBsQ= =l3zV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Please report signature failures. -- 073BB885A786F666 nemo repente fuit turpissimus - potestas scientiae in usu est 6E6D4506F6EDBC17 quaere verum ad infinitum, loquitur sub rosa - wichtig!

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