December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Future of Digital Cash
by Michael Edward Marotta 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Digital Cash: A Probable Future by Michael E. Marotta mercury(a)well.sf.ca.us Kinkos Copy Centers have instituted a debit-card. You put your federal reserve notes in a machine and increment the electronic card. Then you use the card in their public copiers. The card is anonymous. I have two because Kinko's doesn't warranty the cards: I don't carry more than $5 on a card. I have yet to trade the card anywhere else for goods or services. This is the sine qua non of money: money is any medium of indirect exchange. So far, you can only use the Kards to buy Kopies. Digital cash will not replace other forms. Federal Reserve paper passes on the street, perhaps, but gold and silver coins are still being made anew by the USA, PRC, other governments, and several private mints. Plastic, checks, and fiat banknotes have not removed the need for gold nd silver. If anything, government money reinforces the need for real cash: "Aurem non olet" means "Gold doesn't smell" i.e., cash leaves no traces. Digital cash could come from banks via ATMs. You increment your DigiKash card from your demand account or from FRNs in your wallet. You goto a store, pick what you want. You pass through the Exit. You wand or scan your goods. This clears their security. You insert your DigiKash card. It is debited. You package your goods (or put them in your cloth shopping bag) and you leave the store. There was a time when the Grocery Store had clerks. You gave one your shopping list or told them what you wanted and they got it for you. Then came the "supermarket." Self-serve. What a concept. This paradigm shift occured about 1945. We will see another. The retail clerk is on the way out. MacDonald's already ordered 75 robots. Debit cards remove the cost of employees. You'll use your DigiKard for fastfood. You'll use it at the gas pump. (They already take credit cards.) The assumption today is that you will use your BANK debit card for all of this. I'm not sure. I think that the first bank that offers anonymous debit cards will make a fortune. How? Well, for one thing, here in Michigan, Kinko's takes 4% off top for sales tax. Also, I'm walking around with unspent money on my card while Kinko's has my money earning a return. ATMs already cost me 75 cents per transaction. Make it an even buck and it will work for debit cards. Debit cards would be sure winners at Computer Rental stores. The MSU library has a bank of gopher terminals and Gov. Engler just separated property taxes from public education. Gophers seem like a fungible to me. The library already sells pens and copying is a cash business for them now. Public transit is another obvious choice -- the famous Orange card of Japan. Commuter trains in Chicago that toddlin' town had them in place in 1977. But debit cards don't _promise_ universality. You can't use your Kinkos Kard on the train -- yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ( ) "Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind. O Money is made possible by the men who produce it. The words 'to + make money' hold the essence of human morality. " | Francisco d'Anconia, 1957 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: This just in..
by nkaplins＠reed.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sweet, thats rad. You know al wbalderson worked for epitope for a long time. Hey , I 'm writing this on my Toshiba 1950 from home..... pretty cool. I'll see you later N

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Safe and fun environment?
by Matthew B. Landry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Still, it might make sense for someone from this list to give them some >help on the crypto aspects. This could be a safe and fun environment >in which people could be introduced to crypto, and it could even expand Unless this list undergoes some VERY radical changes, it will never be a "safe and fun environment" to introduce new people to anything. At the moment, in order to get anything out of it, one has to devote large quantities of queue space and time to the subscription, and sift through the flames and other noise to locate the rare bit of truly valuable info. There are very few people on this list who routinely post things worth reading, and many who _never_ post things worth reading, and seem to be only around for the flame wars. And god forbid that a newcomer should ask a QUESTION! Dear lord no. That newcomer will be flamed so totally that no burn unit around will be able to save them. Most of those that are persistent or resiliant enough to survive what this list can often put people through may or may not decide to stay. I would imagine that such negative experiences would turn a lot of people off to the whole idea of crypto-privacy. If I hadn't already been committed to privacy when I joined the list, I would have immediately unsubscribed, called Fort Meade, and asked what I could do to help. The vast majority of people who post on this list and respond to other people's posts are obnoxious idiots who are willing to flame at the slightest provocation, and will do so until the person they attack backs down or simply gives up. No one on this list is entirely to blame, nor is anyone entirely blameless for this. Several of the top figures on the list (TC May and Eric Hughes to name two) have recently adopted an inappropriately elitist attitude toward the direction of the list, and the movement. No one can stop Eric from running the _list_ however he wants, but the _movement_ belongs to all of us, thank you. Even though I respect the crypto-political opinions that they express a great deal, I think that they and their supporters have taken this too far. And worse, they have not taken a firm stand against the kind of flame war that is continually erupting over individual posts on the list. For the leaders to sit back and watch this go on is simply not the appropriate way to handle things. Until we fix the serious problems in this list, it will never be an appropriate environment for newcomers to learn about crypto-privacy, just a training ground for flame-throwers. Dare I suggest (why not? I'm already burning to a crisp, how much worse could it get?) that we create a moderated newsgroup that would gateway the substantive traffic from this list into a more accessible forum (but NOT the other way around). In that manner, we could provide a place for newcomers to learn about cryptography and the movement, without forcing them to sift through mountains of flame wars. Questions could be referred to qualified personnel, instead of going to the list where they act like little flame magnets. This newsgroup would not replace the list, nor would it be more than marginally connected (because of the selected cross-postings), but it would provide the kind of environment that the list does not or cannot provide. Go ahead and dump flames in my mailbox. I've long since gotten used to it. I'm not going to back down until someone convinces me that a hospitable environment with informative traffic and a high s/n ratio is a bad idea. Or, you can save bandwidth and send the flames to /dev/null, because that's where anything that doesn't make sense will go. Rational comments are welcome, though. Oh, and for those of you that are tired of seeing me post, you can rest assured that you will never see it again. Contributing to this list has brought nothing but trouble to my life, and I have better things to do with my time than wade through piles of flamage in my personal mail box. -- Matthew B. Landry ml7694a(a)american.edu (Finally!) mbl(a)ml7694a.leonard.american.edu

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List Protocol
by VACCINIA＠UNCVX1.OIT.UNC.EDU 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have been on the list for only 2 months now and I must say I enjoy the communication. Yes, there is alot of noise that comes thru the list but alot of it could be eliminated by not CC: to the list and communicating privately with those who have posted information of interest to you. I find alot of the back and forth communication annoying. Perhaps, if one notes something of interest to them from the list, they should communicate more with those who write them and evince interest in that subject and less with the list. I have found that when I see something I like on the list (it is usually a first posting) and contact that person directly they are very gracious and glad to help me out. I'm not particularly technisavvy yet, but when I have asked people directly for some pointer to information so that I can then go out and learn about it myself (rather then expecting them to educate me), they respond very positively. Also, those who do not think that there is a crypto-movement should hope that there is, otherwise they may soon find themselves outlaws of a much higher level. This is just my two cents, and sorry for the noise but I've seen a bit too much negativism posted lately to allow myself to remain silent. Scott G. Morham ! The First, Vaccinia(a)uncvx1.oit.unc.edu ! Second ! and Third ! Levels of ! Information Storage and Retrieval ! DNA, ! Biological Neural Nets, ! Cyberspace

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Re: distributed autonomous networks
by swc＠uc1.ucsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Meteor bounce is real. Ask anyone in military communications. It is not easy and it is not cheap (in present equipment volumes). The antennas tend to be bulky as well. But it is an option. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc(a)uc1.ucsu.edu or cards(a)top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?"

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Re: distributed autonomous networks
by swc＠uc1.ucsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Don't try to forward messages to their destination. Instead, forward them to several sites distributed around the net, and folks can check their messages via the net from whatever site is closest to them. I would suggest using public keys in lieue of MAC addresses, and Shamir sharing really sensitive stuff. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc(a)uc1.ucsu.edu or cards(a)top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?"

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Re: distributed autonomous networks
by swc＠uc1.ucsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At present, nobody knows how to RDF (radio direction find) the sources of meteor burst transmissions. But I know for a fact (from R&D proposal solicitations) that the military is trying to figure out how. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc(a)uc1.ucsu.edu or cards(a)top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?"

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Atari and VAX
by John W. Redelfs 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If I owned a PC clone or a Mac, I'd be sitting pretty. If my host machine was Unix, I'd be fine. But I'm using an Atari emulating vt100 off a VAX 6510. Is there any help for me? How can I be a cypherpunk? I want to be using PGP, but I haven't found it for either machine I'm on. Any suggestions? John W. Redelfs, tsjwr(a)acad1.alaska.edu

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Re: Who`s Most Receptive
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

S >Also, I'm sending a note to Mitch. He was interviewed by NPR a few S >months ago about the National Information Infrastructure. I'll see if S >he can suggest a reporter. S >Shari I uploaded a transcript of NPR's report on the Clipper announcement to the list last April if anyone would like a copy. Dan Charles was the reporter and Whit Diffy was interviewed. It was favorable. I don't know why right wingers aren't as sympathetic to strong crypto. I used to be one and I am. Strong crypto protects us against the Trilateral Commission and the Bilderbergers. They can't put the number of the beast on us if we use it and crypto is obviously handy for financial privacy. After all would you want the dope smoking lesbian communist dominated Justice Department reading *your* mail, financial records, and medical records. Duncan Frissell "Nuke 'em 'till they glow then shoot them in the dark." --- WinQwk 2.0b#0

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Re: Spread-spectrum net (vulnerability of)
by swc＠uc1.ucsu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I do not know of any way that the network can know where you are without there being a way that someone (net operators or authorities) can use that knowledge. I feel it is better to let the user go get his stuff via the net, versus have his stuff come to him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Stuart W. Card, Consultant, Card & Associates -- Research & Development Box 153 RR 1 Newport Rd Utica NY 13502 315-735-1717 / FAX -8469 swc(a)uc1.ucsu.edu or cards(a)top.cis.syr.edu "Who is John Galt?"

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