December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: IP: Fwd: Evaluation of Vehicle Stopping Prototype ("Kill Switch")
by Michael Motyka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> [Note from Matthew Gaylor: Several years ago on this list I mentioned > that EMP devices will soon be used to stop car chases. Several of my > subscribers wrote in and said I must be crazy, that I lived in a > science fiction fantasy. Oh well, the future is now.] These ideas have been around for more than a few years. In the past year or so I've seen two systems on Discovery Channel. One was a flat strip that was unrolled across the road and generated some ESD when the car crossed it. The other one was a cockamamie toy rocket car that would be deployed by the pursuing car and run under the pursued. They say it shows promise. These things are fine. It would probably require small effort to devise effective CM. The project solicitation is pretty nasty however: they very casually talk about high energy RF. I would say pointing that crap at anyone would come under "reckless endangerment". I miss the days of mechanical ignition points and carbureters! BTW - Did you see the bullshit that happened up in Vallejo? Cops sent a dog into a culvert after a suspect. The suspect shot and killed the dog. The police had a full-fledged funeral, casket and all for the fucking dog. Flowers all over he place, mourners. Now they're buying goddamned kevlar vests for their dogs. Fuckheads. Who's the citizen? The human or the dog? As for the suspect he's charged with something for killing the dog. Simple destruction of property, which would be a charge befitting the act, is probably not enough to avenge beloved Bowser's death. Because it's a cop-dog-on-duty the penalty is probably more than restitution and some community service. Jail time for defending yourself against an attack dog? I think maybe our society is suffering from a form of mass insanity induced by the fucking television programming. LE seem to think they're John Wayne or Steven Segal. They actually believe the brain-dead, binary morality of pop fiction. Us vs Them, Good-guys vs. Bad-guys, Human vs. Non-human. The lack of perspective is mind-blowing. Mike

2 1

EVEN MORE FREE PORN: STUFFED HAS 10 LINKS TO 100S OF FREE PICS, NEW EVERY DAY
by STUFFED TUE OCT 20 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

+ 30 SUPERB, HI-RES, HOT PHOTOS + 5 SUPER SEXY STORIES + ULTRA FREE XXX + ABSOLUT FREE HARDCORE + BIMBO DIGEST + ASIAN ACTION + BOOBS R US + ALL DAY PUSSY PARTY + MISS TEASE FREE XXX PLAYHOUSE + HOT SEX 4 U + THE IDEAL NUDE BEACH + GALLERY XXX + BONUS PIC 1 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/29645.htm + BONUS PIC 2 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/20932.htm + BONUS PIC 3 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/31091.htm + BONUS PIC 4 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/31754.htm + BONUS PIC 5 -> http://www.stuffed.net/home/21188.htm + MUCH, MUCH MORE! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <---- If you haven't visited STUFFED in the last few days, you're in for a real treat. It's faster than ever before and now, as a subscriber, you get 35 FREE new pics every day, plus over 100 more at carefully selected FREE sites we link to. This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/home/ <----

1 0

NEW SECURE INFO MANAGEMENT SYSTEM
by info＠tcii.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Subject: NEW SECURE INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY ANNOUNCEMENT The reason that we are communicating to you is simple. We understand that you are concerned with information security solutions and we need to get the news out about a new kind of technology, which we call Premonition. You need to know that this brand new class of secure Internet publishing technology is in the final phase of development and our company is working hard to make it available! Please take just a few moments to visit our web page located at www.tcii.net/premonition. You will find that there are no requests to purchase anything. We believe our company is on target and that information-based businesses and clients who need secure publishing will benefit. This is an enormous opportunity involving the entire information publishing industry so we know we need help. During this final development phase our company is now beginning to organize a network of business contacts across the country and around the world including those who may wish to participate or become associated with us in this venture. For you to understand what this means you need an opportunity to visit our website at www.tcii.net/premonition. So come to our web site for a visit. If you like what you see then you can send us an email reply from our address on our web page. We know that you will find the general concept of our technology interesting and we will appreciate constructive suggestions. But please do not wait and do not delay; this is a limited one-time window of opportunity for you to consider. After this message your email address will be automatically added to our remove list and we will not try to target your address again. We must limit the number of people we will send this message to. However, you are welcome to forward this message on to other qualified professionals who you think may be interested. We want to thank those of you who choose to participate for your honest review of www.tcii.net/premonition. You will see that sometimes it can be refreshing and worth your while to take a look at new information that drops in your email. Sincerely, Transaction Control International, Inc. Memphis, Tennessee www.tcii.net/premonition

1 0

Dorkslayers..
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text From: steven.soroka(a)mts.mb.ca X-Lotus-FromDomain: MTS To: coderpunks(a)toad.com Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 18:02:52 -0500 Subject: Dorkslayers.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-coderpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk You'll notice that toad.com is on the dorkslayers list, (under ip 140.174.2.1).. It'd advisable to find a way to remove it.. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

IP: WEBSITE: Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT)
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: WEBSITE: Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:39:27 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Forwarded: ---------------- Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:44:43 -0700 From: "A.C." <angie(a)computerhut.net> Subject: WEBSITE: Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) BELOW IS A SITE WORTH VISITING AND DESERVING OF CAREFUL STUDY, as the US military has made it clear in its numerous documents, that a considerable segment of the US population is suspect, and a sizable number are of the "warrior classes," hence must be contained. Machiavelli, a shrewd military strategist, understood well the strategies for keeping the balance of power and, thus, advised the princes of Renaissance Italy, which at that time were a collection of powerful city-states, always at war with each other. Machiavelli's strategies AND PHILOSOPHIES, have been, still are, the subject of SERIOUS study by US military strategists. "He [the prince or any ruler] must, therefore, never raise his thought from this exercise of war, and in peacetime, he must train himself more than in time of war; this can be done in two ways: one by action, the other by the mind. And as far as actions are concerned, besides keeping his soldiers well disciplined and trained, he must always be out hunting, and must accustom his body to hardships in this manner; and HE MUST ALSO LEARN THE NATURE OF THE TERRAIN, AND KNOW HOW MOUNTAINS SLOPE, HOW VALLEYS OPEN, HOW PLAINS LIE, AND UNDERSTAND THE NATURE OF RIVERS AND SWAMPS; [emphasis ac] and he should devote much attention to such activities. ... and a Prince who lacks this ability lacks the most important quality in a leader; because this skill teaches you to find the enemy, choose a campsite, lead troops, organize them for battle, and besiege towns to your own advantage." .... Therefore, a prince must not worry about the reproach of cruelty when it is a matter of keeping his subjects united and loyal; ......." The Prince, by Machiavelli. > >http://earthops.org/sovereign/urban_warfare/ >Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) FM 90-10 Headquarters Department of Army Washington, DC, 15 August 1979 FM 90-10 Military Operations on Urbanized Terrain (MOUT) Table of Contents CHAPTER 1... INTRODUCTION Urbanization Characteristics of Urban Warfare CHAPTER 2... OFFENSE How the Enemy Defends Planning the Attack The Offensive Battle Corps Division Brigade Battalion Task Force CHAPTER 3... DEFENSE How the Enemy Attacks Planning the Defense The Defensive Battle Corps Division Brigade Battalion Task Force CHAPTER 4... COMBAT SUPPORT Field Artillery Engineer Army Aviation Tactical Air Air Defense Military Police Chemical Communications CHAPTER 5... COMBAT SERVICE SUPPORT Support Organization Logistical Functions Noncombatants Civil Affairs Operations Refugee Control APPENDIX A... Urban Terrain Analysis APPENDIX B... Weapons Effects And Employment APPENDIX C... How To Select And Prepare Defensive Positions In Built-Up Areas APPENDIX D... Employment Of Obstacles And Mines In Built-Up Areas APPENDIX E... Demolitlons APPENDIX F... Armored Forces In Built-Up Area APPENDIX G... How To Attack And Clear Building APPENDIX H... References And International Agreements **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email@address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************************

1 0

IP: [FP] National ID back on table?
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: [FP] National ID back on table? Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:52:36 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Forwarded: --------------- From: "ScanThisNews" <mcdonalds(a)airnet.net> Subject: [FP] National ID back on table? Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 07:05:28 -0500 SCAN THIS NEWS MONDAY OCTOBER 19, 1998 National ID back on table? Weekend maneuvers in Congress may kill moratorium http://www.worldnetdaily.com/exclusiv/981019_national_id_back_o.shtml By David M. Bresnahan Copyright 1998, WorldNetDaily.com Last-minute deals on Capitol Hill may remove a previously negotiated moratorium on the national ID card, and one organization opposed to the card is not surprised or disappointed. The law was already passed by Congress in 1996 and a national ID for all Americans will soon be in use unless changes to the law are made soon. The omnibus appropriations bill contained a ban on the national ID, first exposed in WorldNetDaily, but over the weekend efforts were made to remove that ban. A great many bills were never voted on during the year. With elections just around the corner, politicians want to go home to their districts and brag about something they've done this past year. The omnibus bill contains thousands of pages, including many pet projects intended to win votes. The main purpose of the bill, negotiated last week and scheduled for a vote tomorrow, is to approve the budget and keep government in business. Prior to the negotiations last week, all sides were predicting a shut-down of government over disagreements in the budget. No one in Congress wants to explain to voters why government has come to a grinding halt just before an election, so the passage of the omnibus bill is assured, along with anything else attached to it. "There are so many deals that have been made and are still being made that no one will ever know exactly what's in that thing and what's not until long after the vote is over and the members all go home to campaign," explained a congressional aide who did not wish to be named. The moratorium was first included in the transportation appropriations bill, but Rep. Lamar Smith, R-TX, convinced Speaker Newt Gingrich, R-GA, to remove it before passage, according to House Transportation Committee sources. The ban on the national ID was then included the omnibus bill. However, Smith has continued to make efforts to kill the provision, according to a congressional source who has been working on the ban. "It's very hard to say just what will happen, but I do know that Smith has recruited help from some other members and the Speaker is considering their requests," said the source yesterday. It was Smith who got the national ID ban out of the transportation appropriations bill. "It was reported that Lamar Smith had obtained an agreement from Speaker Gingrich to eliminate this provision from the bill," reported Patrick Poole of the Free Congress Foundation. The ban was back in the bill "after many House members openly complained to the speaker about Lamar Smith's seemingly religious devotion to the national ID idea and the American peoples vehement opposition to being branded and tagged by the U.S. government," explained Poole. Numerous organizations opposed to the concept of a national ID rallied their members to send thousands of letters, faxes, and make phone calls to Congress for the past two weeks. Rep. Smith could not be reached on Sunday night by WorldNetDaily, but he did publish a letter in the Washington Times last Tuesday because of the many calls his office received. "I do not support a national ID card and don't know anyone in Congress who does," said Smith in his letter. He tried to label those voicing opposition as radicals when he added, "There are fringe groups that believe the United Nations is taking over Yellowstone National Park, that Congress is creating a national ID card or that they have been abducted by UFOs." The law to create a national ID card was passed as part of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996. One section of the act requires all states to make their driver's licenses comply with certain guidelines found in Section 656 (b) of the act, including the use of the Social Security Number on all licences and in all data bases beginning Oct. 1, 2000. The act also calls for digitized biometric information to be a part of each license, or "smart card." The biometric information will include fingerprints, retina scans, DNA prints, and other similar information. Responsibility for the design and implementation of the cards has been given to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the Department of Transportation. That agency has recently published the proposed "Driver's License/SSN/National Identification Document," which contains the guidelines which must be in force by each state -- a federal mandate once campaigned against by many conservative Republicans. "These new national ID regulations violate every notion of federalism, because they force states to comply with regulations issued by the federal government without any constitutional authority to do so," said Poole recently. "Nor are federal agencies empowered to force states to gather detailed information on every person in order to comply with federal mandates. The net result of the DOT's regulations is to establish a national ID system, which has been opposed by almost every non-governmental sector for the past five decades." House Majority Leader Dick Armey, R-TX, Rep. Ron Paul, R-TX, and Rep. Bob Barr, R-GA, have been working on repeal legislation, but there was insufficient time to bring it to a vote during this session of Congress. The DOT solicited public comments on their plans for implementation of Section 656 (b) of the act earlier this year. The public comment period has just closed and many thousands of letters in opposition were received, according to a spokesman. Five states also expressed opposition to the plan, and only a "small number" of letters supporting the plan were known to the spokesman, who spoke on condition that his name would not be published. One group that has worked diligently for the repeal of the national ID card was not surprised to learn of plans to remove the ban from the omnibus bill. "I won't be terribly disappointed if the one-year moratorium is removed from the appropriations bill. In fact, if left in, the moratorium may actually serve to provide an unwelcomed delay in this issue being addressed by Congress and the DOT," said Scott McDonald leader of "Fight the Fingerprint." McDonald says his group will use the situation to educate more people regardless of which way the bill ends up. He is concerned that national debate on the national ID will be delayed by the ban and would lessen the chances to get the law repealed. McDonald wants the debate to begin now. "Time is on the side of the proponents of the national ID. Opposition to any issue tends to wane as time passes. The American people have already firmly stated their strong opposition to the DOT's proposed standardized driver's license proposal. Now it's time for the DOT to act on behalf of the people they serve. The DOT should go back to Congress with a report stating that the American people do not want a national ID which the 1996 immigration law would establish via standardized driver's licenses," explained McDonald on Sunday. McDonald's group is opposed to the use of Social Security numbers from being used as past of driver's licences and in centralized government databases tied to driver's licenses and other government documents. His group is also opposed to the use of fingerprints on such records. In the event there is a moratorium on the implementation of the National ID, McDonald predicts there will be a good chance the DOT will design a compromise which will keep Social Security numbers off licences but keep the number on license applications and in universal data bases to keep track of individuals. Without a moratorium, a report must be provided by DOT detailing the responses they received from the public on the issue. McDonald wants Congress to see that report as soon as possible. "Without the temporary reprieve, the DOT is required by law to respond to all public comments which have been filed with the agency, and to publish their responses in the Federal Register," said McDonald. "I am anxious to see their responses. If the moratorium goes into effect, the DOT may be able to avoid this mandatory requirement. The American people deserve to be know what the DOT's official position is in response to the objections raised by those individuals and groups who took the time to object." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- You can call the capitol toll free at........1-800-378-1844 Lamar Smith..................................1-202-225-4236 Speaker Gingrich.............................1-202-225-0600 ======================================================================= Don't believe anything you read on the Net unless: 1) you can confirm it with another source, and/or 2) it is consistent with what you already know to be true. ======================================================================= Reply to: <fingerprint(a)networkusa.org> ======================================================================= To subscribe to the free Scan This News newsletter, send a message to <majordomo(a)efga.org> and type "subscribe scan" in the BODY. Or, to be removed type "unsubscribe scan" in the message BODY. For additional instructions see www.efga.org/about/maillist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Scan This News" is Sponsored by S.C.A.N. Host of the "FIGHT THE FINGERPRINT!" web page: www.networkusa.org/fingerprint.shtml ======================================================================= **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email@address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************************

1 0

IP: Brave New World of Implants
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: Brave New World of Implants Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:42:06 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Source: Jewish World Review / Oct. 19,1998 / 29 Tishrei, 5759 http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0798/mothernature.html Can we 'fool Mother Nature'? Do we want to? By David S. Oderberg IMAGINE THAT YOU have been fitted with a tiny electronic device, measuring nearly an inch long and a third of an inch wide. This device receives and emits radio waves in the presence of transceivers in 'intelligent' buildings fitted to recognize the unique signal emanating from the tiny 'smart' chip in your body. This chip, implanted just under the skin on your arm, has immense advantages. With it you can open and close doors, pass through security channels set up to recognize your identity, operate machines such as computers and faxes, and generally negotiate your technological world with greater ease and convenience than at present. You can even use your chip to carry out daily commerce. Swipe your arm over a scanner and you can make payments, have your account debited automatically, check you bank balance. In short, you can do everything which currently requires you to lug around a walletful of credit cards. One small catch, though: because of this chip, your whereabouts are known to others at every minute of every day. You can be tracked like a car or airplane. Orwellian nightmare? Delusional apocalyptic fantasy? One would have thought so, until it emerged in the British press a short while ago that Kevin Warwick, professor of cybernetics at the University of Reading -- my own university, as a matter of fact -- has decided to try out such a scenario on himself. Seeing himself as a latter day Edward Jenner -- the pioneering scientist who tried out the smallpox vaccine on his own body -- Prof. Warwick has entered the hallowed halls of self-experimentation by having just such a silicon chip injected under the skin near his elbow. He is, as far as anyone knows, the first person to do so. The results of his experiment are not yet known. He has to take antibiotics against the risk of infection, and is a little concerned his body will reject the alien device. Speaking of the doctor who agreed to implant the chip, Prof. Warwick says: "If it all goes wrong and my arm explodes, which I have been warned could happen, my wife will probably sue...". The good professor is, nevertheless, sanguine about the possible side effects. For he sees himself as a crusader at the cutting edge of cybertechnology. Already famous for his little machines -- looking a bit like cockroaches on wheels -- which, he glows, behave for all the world as though they have intelligence (something I and others doubted when we saw them in action), Prof. Warwick is thrusting forward in the attempt to fulfil the prophecy of his own recent best-seller, March of the Machines. "It is possible," he says, "for machines to become more intelligent than humans in the reasonably near future. Machines will then become the dominant life form on earth." Is this a tragedy? No, he adds blithely: "We are just an animal, not much better or worse than the other animals. We have our uses [sic], because we are different. We are slightly more intelligent than the other animals." The professor looks forward to the day when machines rule our lives. The fact that his microchip enables him to be traced is no great worry. His secretary finds it a boon: "It was often hard to find Prof. Warwick...but since the implant we always know where he is." And so would your employer if you were similarly implanted. You would be monitored every time you clocked in and out of work, or left the workplace. Prof. Warwick surmises the chip could carry all sorts of information, such as medical records, past convictions, financial data. "It is quite possible for an implant to replace an Access or Visa card. There is very little danger in losing an implant or having it stolen," he said. But it seems Prof. Warwick is alive to the dangers of the microchip implant: "I know all this smacks of Big Brother," he comments. Where the technology will ultimately go "I really don't know and would not like to envisage." By now, you may well be feeling a little spooked. This is not surprising. Nor should the experiment itself be such a shock. After all, on October 11th 1993, The Washington Times reported on the "high-tech national tattoo" made by Hughes Aircraft Company --- an implantable transponder which the company called "an ingenious, safe, inexpensive, foolproof and permanent method of ... identification using radio waves." In 1994, in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, it was reported that a local humane society offered pet owners, for $25, to inject their dogs or cats with a microchip, to prevent their being lost or stolen. A Dr. Carl Sanders, electronics engineer and inventor of the Intelligent Manned Interface biochip, told the Monetary Economic Review that satellites could be used to track people fitted with the IMI chip: "We used this with military personnel in the Iraq war where they were actually tracked using this particular type of device." Whether soldiers have actually 'volunteered' to be surgically implanted with the chip, as opposed to carrying it on their clothing, is not made clear by Dr. Sanders. But what we do know is that proponents of this technology envisage first using it on animals (now widespread, particularly dogs, cats and cattle), then prisoners (more effective than electronic ankle tags), then children (e.g., newborn babies, so as to prevent their being switched or lost) and elderly people suffering from Alzheimer's disease (to prevent their wandering and getting lost). After that, who knows? The potential for the chips to replace credit cards and cash is huge, and will tempt financial institutions in turn to tempt their customers to 'try out' the chip with no obligation to carry it permanently, and monetary rewards for those who persevere. Supporters of the injectible microchip say it is just the logical extension of a technology that already allows the heavy monitoring of people through pagers, cellular phones, 'smart' cards, and cars fitted with Global Positioning System transponders. On the other hand, could it not be said that the advent of the chip implant is the final outrage which demonstrates the inherent unacceptability of its technological ancestors? We are, it seems, fast approaching a world that even George Orwell was not able to envisage. Had the microchip implant been known in his day there can be no doubt it would have replaced the 'telescreen' in his dystopian novel 1984. The fact that the corporations and individuals promoting its use are not being bombarded daily with protests from millions of outraged citizens is itself cause for wonder. How, particularly in countries such as the USA and Britain in which civil liberties are so prized, is it possible for so much propaganda to reach the mass media with barely a hint of contrary opinion? Prof. Warwick has gained enormous publicity, and is flooded with calls from journalists wanting to know how his little experiment is going. Until, however, a sufficient number of citizens make known their implacable opposition to the totalitarian trend of a technology which threatens to reduce most humans to the status of cattle, the likes of Prof. Warwick will go about their evil work unperturbed. JWR contributor Dr. David S. Oderberg is Lecturer in Philosophy at the University of Reading, England, and a freelance journalist. ©1998, David S. Oderberg ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- **************************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address or (un)subscribe ignition-point-digest email@address **************************************************** www.telepath.com/believer ****************************************************

1 0

My citizenship renunciation made difficult (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:17:12 -0400 (AST) > From: Vincent Cate <vince(a)offshore.com.ai> > Subject: My citizenship renunciation made difficult > But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me > permission to renounce my association with it seems totally wrong. The > people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or subjects. Free > means free to leave. > > Any advice? Sue. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

1 0

"Microsoft is racist"
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/15702.html On the sidewalk in front of the building, a handful of protesters held up a sign saying "Microsoft is racist." The group attacked the company for not donating money to Howard University, which is predominately black.

2 1

Re: Another potential flaw in current economic theory... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, I've a point unrelated to this topic. I recieved two copies of your email. One was 101 lines and the other was 108 lines, the difference being 7 blank lines. Pretty curious, no? Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 15:15:13 -0400 > From: tzeruch(a)ceddec.com > Subject: Re: Another potential flaw in current economic theory... > Not labor any more than capital. I think what you refer to is often > called "stakeholders" which includes suppliers and customers in addition > to employees. Well suppliers are a business unto themselves so I'm not sure I can extend my point that far. I certainly wouldn't include customers as this confuses the entire issue of the point of business (ie making a profit). If we extend the issue to include customers then we're looking at reducing our profit margin to zero as we discount our services to the customer over time. There is also the aspect that with this model we end up selling our service to ourselves, an inherently loosing proposition since there is no profit to be made at all in that case. > However you do not need to play games to justify proper treatment of > employees. I didn't mean to imply any sort of mistreatment, though I did raise that spectre in related postings. Sorry for the confusion. The point I was trying to make was that business has a third, and untried near as I can tell, strategy in approaching their business process. Include the employees in the plan with the specific goal of making them rich enough and invested enough so they don't have to work and do it in a short time span - say 10 years. I've read a few pieces (I must admit to viewing them as pie-in-the-sky) which predict that what will happen with technology is that people will begin to invest in automated processes and over time as these become ubiquitous people don't work, they live off their profit from the investment in these automated factories. One aspect, which I alluded to above, is that at some point the investors are also their own customers so that the profit they make to buy the materials is in a closed loop. This seems to me to invite a level of inflation (in order to preserve at least the ghost of a profit) that would explode pretty quickly. > If you consider capital such as a machine, it is usually > better to keep it well maintained and in good repair instead of letting it > wear out and rust - the quality of your goods will suffer, profits will go > down, and shareholders will dump management. True enough, though the machines don't retire (they do wear out). If we look at it from a strictly cost analysis perspective I'd agree with you (as I understand your point) fully. The question I have is what if we abandon the Friedman view and take on a more humanistic view. In short, business represent a participant in a social process. As a result they have more duties than just making profit for their shareholders (or stakeholders). [text deleted] > Our current stock market bubble - which is in the process of popping - > distorted this. I agree in part, I believe that the reason we're seeing the failure of the traditional economic systems is that in large scales with extremely fluid capital (intellectual, physical, monetary, etc.) it becomes very difficult to keep long term participants when there are so many more lucrative short-term potentials. I personaly feel the collapse of the CCCP in the early 90's is a good indication of this 'delayed responce' syndrome. I also believe the current problem with funding the government is another example where the gains are such that the traditional political and social views don't apply well enough so that the errors cancel each other out. Instead they pile on top of each other over time. My guess is that the current political system will collapse of its own ineptitude and lethargy as well as a wedding to outmoded ideas sometime in the next 20 years or so. What comes after, I believe at this point, will be a polycratic technocracy based on distributed democratic ideals. > My concept of Usury (yes, another mideval or earlier > idea) is loaning in the abstract. You just want 5% or 10%, and try to > find a piece of paper (or electronic book entry) that will return it > regardless of what is behind the paper. This can include ponzi schemes if > they aren't recognized as such. Oops, what's a 'ponzi scheme'? I can't find it in any of my texts.... > If people were really investing in the non-usurous sense, they would be > concerned with the company as an organic whole, with the suppliers, and > customers, and employees, and the physical plant and everything else, I understand the conept of 'organic whole'. I have to disagree at extending it to include the customers and suppliers for the reasons listed above. In a very real sense the term you use is more apt than anything I've come up with so far as a label. > If I want milk, I will be very concerned with keeping the cow happy and > healthy, and doing so rationally - pampering the cow too much won't give > any more milk and maybe make the cow less healthy, but starving it or > beating it would be worse. I agree, the interesting question - I hope without stretching the comparison too far - is what happens when the farmer figures out how to make the milk using a bacteria (for example) via genetic manipulation? (this is meant as an example of technical invasion of a traditional market) Does the farmer continue to feed the cow on principle (it being a fellow living creature and mankind having destroyed its natural habitats and hence we can't turn it loose) or simply kill the beast and sell the remains to the golden arches? > price didn't go up further). I haven't heard a reason connected with > something tangible (dividends, book-value, cash flow) for someone to own > such a stock. Only that "it the internet". And I think this decoupling > is at the center of what you are getting at. Paper v.s. people, and when > it comes time to decide, the paper wins. That is most definitely a major aspect of the problem. People get so dazzled by the visions of fruit plums dancing before their eyes they don't notice the snow has melted. > There is a lot of ignorance, and it is rational in the short term - these > stocks are going up, so it would otherwise make sense to follow the trend. > But if the trend is all that is being watched, who is going to care if > they are using slave-labor? - to mention just one issue. I'm afraid I don't quite catch your point here. Could you reword it? > But that is investing in a bubble. Exactly why I don't want to see an integrated world economy. It's doomed to fail from the get go. > The same thing happened in 1720 with > the South Seas company in Great Britian and the Mississippi Scheme in > France. I'll look into these as I'm not familiar with the particular. Thanks for the lead. > And I think we will see the same thing here and across the globe shortly. > Japan started to see this in the early '90s. Agreed. What I find really funny (in a macabre sort of sense I admit) is that the folks who are hording gold and other supposed universal valuables are in for a big surprise at what comes out of the other end. This is going to be a economic/political Industrial Revolution the likes of which haven't been seen since mankind invented the little clay balls for sealing contracts for selling sheep and such. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

1 0