December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

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by jmotes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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17 Dec '03

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by sixdegrees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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RE: Democracy... (fwd)
by Mark Hedges 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate answered: >> From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> >> There is no reason to think that a god does exist, so why would one even >> need to think about or believe in the negative. > >There is no reason to believe one doesn't either. If we take your claim at >face value you need to demonstrate your test that shows the irrelevancy >of god. God is not a belief in a negative, another straw man, but rather >a mechanism or expression of human psychology and the need for humans to >find patterns (ie reason) in things. Mr. Gering, you may have heard the argument that there is also no reason to believe that you exist, except your sense impressions which can be proven to be unreliable and easily falsified. The old 'disembodied nervous system floating in a tank getting poked by graduate students' premise could explain your entire range of perceptions of your childhood, schooling, adolescence, growing up, eating pizza at the office, etc. I wondered for a while, and then I threw it in the waste bin, because it's pointless and a waste of energy to wonder whether or not I exist. I decided to trust my sense impressions well enough to go to the movies and jog in the mornings and go to work and write code. I certainly do not stop living because there is no reason to believe that I exist. There is also no reason for me to believe that you exist, because you could be Toto forging the mail. You didn't sign your message, I don't have your key fingerprint, I doubt I ever will, and besides, maybe someone monitored your keystrokes and stole your key. And in my experience, certain 'sense impressions' lead me to conclude that the existence of 'god' as some sort of cohesive, coherent, universal-scale eternal being is perhaps possible. Looking at cloud formations on the plane, I sometimes feel like an astrocyte wandering a huge purkinje skyscape, or like a star careening through a nebula. And the erosion patterns on the mountains below look just like dribbling water on sandcastles. And so there is something, some kind of underlying order, the effects of which we see at every scale. Though I'm incapable of understanding the transcendent order, or of conceiving what the transcendent order might be, I do not block the possibility from my mind. And that leads to some interesting experiences. No, I don't follow the often arbitrary rhetoric of many organised religions, and in that point I agree with your opinion of the concept. Although, some of them espouse some interesting ideas. To wander back to the thread topic, democracy, and to totally wrench everything out of context, I've heard the same sort of argument used against democratic empowerment. There's no reason to believe that 'the people' are capable of making their own decisions, and there's no reason to believe that stronger, more direct democracy would work as an effective system of governance and organisational decision-making. 'The people' are demonstrably idiotic, moronic fools, sheep, who must be lead by 'those in the know'. By that logic, it follows we should concentrate all power into the hands of a few beneficent rulers, or an educated aristocracy, or perhaps just one -- the philosopher king. I nominate myself. Any objections? Please e-mail for address to send offerings and libations to me, the ruler of the universe. Donations accepted in the form of gifts of $100 or more. Gold and precious stones preferred. Multitudinous blessings to you, free of charge. Mark Hedges __________________________________________________________________ Mark Hedges hedges(a)infopeace.com www.infopeace.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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by sixdegrees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Questions for Magaziner?
by John Kelsey 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> > To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net; cryptography(a)c2.net; dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu > Subject: Questions for Magaziner? > Date: Thursday, September 17, 1998 11:38 PM > Anyway, In light of more recent crypto-shenanigans from Billary, and the > fact that this thing's a small crowd, I figured I'd ask if anyone on these > lists had a question they wanted me to ask him. Here's a question I would like to ask, in a rather rough form: There has been a lot of talk by the administration about ``striking a balance'' between citizens privacy concerns and the interests of police and spy agencies. Can you give us some concrete examples of what tradeoffs between these two you consider reasonable? For example, what benefits to society would be worth making all private communications available to the FBI or NSA? Would it be a worthwhile trade to the citizens of the US if we could double the street price of cocaine, at the cost of essentially all phone calls being recorded and subject to monitoring at any time? How about cutting the (already barely measureable) risk of dying from a terrorist act in half? My complaint with their rhetoric is that they always talk about these tradeoffs and about striking a balance, but we never seem to see any balance being struck. Striking a balance means acknowledging that some societal benefits aren't worth giving up our privacy. Will doubling the street price of cocaine improve my life much? It sure doesn't look like it will to me. How about cutting my risk of dying from a terrorist act? This is already much smaller than my risk of dying in a plane crash; how much lower does it need to go? (There is also the issue of whether any claimed set of benefits can be accomplished by key-escrow, or for that matter by putting a videocamera and microphone in every home. But that's a different issue.) Of course, there are a bunch of problems with trying to analyze violating fundamental individual rights for some perceived social benefit, but I don't think their basic argument can work, even if we grant that this sort of tradeoff is a legitimate thing for governments to do. The tradeoffs we've seen offered have not given much weight to citizens' desires for privacy. Consider the Clipper chip, the continued use of export controls to slow down deployment of encryption in the US and worldwide, the FBI's CALEA demands (including their demand a few years ago to be able to listen in on 1/2% of all ongoing calls in urban areas), etc. We haven't seen any attempt to strike a balance so far, just an attempt to claim some bureaucratic turf. > Cheers, > Bob Hettinga --John Kelsey, kelsey(a)counterpane.com / kelsey(a)plnet.net NEW PGP print = 5D91 6F57 2646 83F9 6D7F 9C87 886D 88AF

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Re: Questions for Magaziner?
by Steve Bellovin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

It is, of course, worth remembering that Magaziner is pretty much on our side on this issue. He just hasn't been able to win over Freeh, Reno, Clinton, etc.

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by sixdegrees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Hacker D00D
by I.A. Eaglemail 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

DENY >From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Fri Sep 18 12:23:32 1998 >Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA22376 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from neptune.sixdegrees.com (neptune.sixdegrees.com [206.41.12.34]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA22371 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:16:49 -0700 (PDT) >Message-Id: <199809181916.MAA22371(a)toad.com> >Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:15:42 -0500 >From: "sixdegrees"<5j0g50e0(a)auto.sixdegrees.com> >To: "Joe Cyberspanker"<cypherpunks(a)toad.com> >Subject: Hacker D00D >Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com >Precedence: bulk > >You've been listed again. Looks like this whole sixdegrees >thing is working. Your networking potential is growing by the >second. Hacker D00D listed you as "Mother." > >Please let us know if you are in fact Hacker's Mother: > >==================================================================== >TO RESPOND: > >FIRST, click your mail program's reply button. > >SECOND, in the reply e-mail that opens, on the first line of >the message body, type only the word CONFIRM or the word DENY. > >THEN CLICK SEND. > >If you prefer, you can take care of this contact confirmation >by visiting the site at http://www.sixdegrees.com and going to >MY CONTACTS after logging in on the home page. You can also list >new contacts there. > >We look forward to hearing from you. > >==================================================================== >PLEASE NOTE: All replies to this address are processed by a computer. >If you have any problems, questions or requests send an e-mail to >issues(a)sixdegrees.com and someone will get back to you as soon as >possible. >==================================================================== > > >E.DB.ANB.4 > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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RE: Questions for Magaziner?
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mr Magaziner, what do you think Thomas Jefferson meant when he stated: "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Matt

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