December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

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by Japhy Ryder 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

cual es la fecha? czesc, tak mal na dodjze kajka.... -- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzLvsCAAAAEEANHTflxW1D4mB/h3dnEV7K1jzXvmBOrSh+EHbkCn+ZjLislg LW51QG9CuS81VaHx75xdxV1C11RXJybaqqrtT186aQfmEuTQP0rLJYy859xdHpcu DldUZ9ry3xXACtQAk3bPlvo6Yd3TmucoPXDl55w95Hru+H7TIzR2UortBxKZAAUR tAtKYXBoeSBSeWRlcg== =0WVf -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"reece(a)taz.nceye.net" "Bryan Reece" 17-FEB-1997 23:23:10.06 >> use. However, I do have one problem with this recipe: lack of >> loop prevention if a news2mail gateway is going in the other direction. >All the mailing-list hosts are supposed to check for duplicates before >forwarding anything, so this shouldn't do anything worse than have a >few extra copies of each post get discarded, loading the network and >the hosts a bit more. But posting the list to a widely-distributed Umm... IIRC, the only person who's announced how he's filtering for duplicates is Igor, and he's just checking for messageIDs. Won't those get chunked on going through a mail2news gateway, and thus possibly come back through a news2mail gateway? The filtering mechanism could be improved via MD5 digests, etcetera (someone's already given a recipe for such; thank you), but even so various mungings could still set up a mailing loop. (Yes, I'm paranoid about those; I may have been reading list-managers for too long and seen too many stories on there.) The sensible place to keep track of possible duplicates is at the gateway; it can certainly filter based on that it (or, for that matter, another known bidirectional gateway) sent a message out. >newsgroup seems wrong for noise (both to the list itself and to >posters) and delay reasons. Delay reasons being that mail will go to Usenet, go all over the place there, and then get replied to later than if it were just on the mailing list(s)? A potential problem, yes. But (especially given the options I mentioned below), this would appear to be a matter for individual users to decide by which list they go with and any added control headers. Maximum individual sovreignty (sp?). >> In regards to your later query about whether people want their postings >> going to Usenet, might I suggest that this be individual to the given >> distributed mailing list? In other words, since the recipe is logically >> going to have to not forward to a gateway messages from other mailing >> lists (since it's not a good idea to have multiple copies of the same >> message arriving at the gateway if it can be helped; better to filter >> it out beforehand), >It doesn't seem an especially bad idea, since it Thank you. Were you cut off? >> some of the mailing lists can forward and the >> others cannot. (One could even determine this behavior on application >> of the proper X-header, although I never trust various mailing systems >> to forward such intact.) The same could also be done with gatewaying >> _from_ Usenet - if the news2mail gateway feeds to whatever individual >> lists sign up to it and they _don't_ forward such messages to others, >> people can decide whether or not to receive Usenet postings on >> alt.cypherpunks.* by which list they subscribe to. >The code currently running is a perl script that turns typical email >messages into something INN is happy with. It is probably possible to >get your message rejected by INN if you put obsolete or otherwise >unusual and illegal headers in. This may be a bug. That would probably depend on: A. if any other circumstances other than deliberately sabotaging your message's translation would also disrupt its chances of getting through seriously, particularly if they weren't something you'd spot; and B. if sufficiently bad messages would disrupt INN's operations too much. You'd know a lot more than I would in regard to the latter, and probably the former. I was last a serious participant on USENET on a Vax running VMS (via Bitnet, as a matter of fact... a while back). -Allen

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by Japhy Ryder 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

cual es la fecha? czesc, tak mal na dodjze kajka.... -- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAzLvsCAAAAEEANHTflxW1D4mB/h3dnEV7K1jzXvmBOrSh+EHbkCn+ZjLislg LW51QG9CuS81VaHx75xdxV1C11RXJybaqqrtT186aQfmEuTQP0rLJYy859xdHpcu DldUZ9ry3xXACtQAk3bPlvo6Yd3TmucoPXDl55w95Hru+H7TIzR2UortBxKZAAUR tAtKYXBoeSBSeWRlcg== =0WVf -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
by Alan Barrett 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote: > Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at > the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news > servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will > flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless > something is seriously broken). Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news propagation? News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not at all uncommon. --apb (Alan Barrett)

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Any more like www.anonymizer.com ??
by Edgar W Swank 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Does anyone have a list of web proxies for anonymous surfing? I already know about www.anonymizer.com, and there was a "canadianizer" that would alter text to make it more "Canadian", but that is now apparently defunct. Reason I need to know, a friend in a foreign country has to deal with a web proxy that blocks "objectionable" sites including www.anonymizer, so some alternates that might not be blocked would be welcome. Edgar W. Swank <EdgarSwank(a)Juno.com> (preferred) Edgar W. Swank <Edgar_W._Swank(a)ilanet.org> (for files/msgs >50K) Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/~EdgarS/index.html

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Re: DES and RSA crypto hardware from the free world
by Dan Geer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

These chips look *very* promising. Who needs Clipper, or HP's Clipper-under-another-name, when you can get triple DES from the free world at prices like this? The critical thing is to get the horse out of the barn before the door is barred. Each and every one of these sorts of vendors has to establish use and distribution on a wide basis before governments of any stripe start locking down on domestic use. There is little time and, yes, I am a paranoid who hopes thereby to survive. --dan

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Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
by Alan Barrett 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news > >propagation? News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not > >at all uncommon. > > News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_ > servers? To some (perhaps many, certainly not all) distant servers, provided all the news servers in the path run appropriate software (designed for low latency propagation) and have reasonably high bandwidth Internet links. Disk to disk delays smaller than 1 second have been measured between news servers that use software such as nntplink or innfeed to send outgoing articles immediately. > The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and > news feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of > megabytes a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a > point-to-point process for e-mail. Right. And some of those news links are fast, while others are slow. If two sites happen to be connected by fast news links, it's quite possible for news between those sites to be faster than mail. --apb (Alan Barrett)

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Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
by Alan Barrett 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Bryan Reece wrote: >> obviously the message will flood the majordomo net before it floods >> the real usenet unless something is seriously broken). I replied: > Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news > propagation? News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are > not at all uncommon. Sorry, I misunderstood the earlier message. I thought that it referred to news propagation between a small set of hosts versus mail propagation between the same small set of mail/news hosts, and I did not see why it was obvious that mail would be faster than news. But actually the earlier message refered to news propagation over the whole planet versus mail propagation between a small set of hosts, in which case of course news will be slower. --apb (Alan Barrett)

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alt.cypherpunks.ebonics
by Alec 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Igor, A friend, who, in the CP tradition requested to remain anonymous, and I were doing an informal analysis of those subjects/topics which over the past year generated the most discussion and, by implication, interest on the CP list. Since the list at that time was reportedly unmoderated, we felt some weight should be given to members' interests/desires as measured by their posts, regardless of the applicability to the list topic. With the exceptions of AP (oh so clearly way off-topic), list censorship (too tedious), and remarks either questioning or affirming the sexuality/virility/femininity (or lack thereof ) of almost every CP subscriber, the topic which claimed the most bandwidth was Ebonics. It seemed to touch on several layers of CP interest: freedom of speech, obfuscation, tolerance, intolerance, phonetics, linguistics, race warfare, etc. You name it; just about every well-known c'punk jumped in to make some urbane statement on this, sadly, now dead and ignored issue. Nevertheless, the bandwidth was there! Note; any messages followed by Punctuation Art were excluded if they seemed to lack "dignity," for want of a better word. Based on the above stats (available from my friend on request), my anonymous friend and I request that you add Ebonics as an area of interest to Cypherpunks in your List Intro. Please judge this request on its merit and not on what you may think of me or my anonymous (asexual) friend personally, thereby, by that very action, initiating a New Order of Cypherpunks! Thanks for you consideration. More importantly, thank you for helping to keep this vibrant list alive. Alec (and friend) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 Comment: Message PGP 2.6.2. signed/encrypted. Public key available on request or from keyservers. iQCVAgUBMwnVrSKJGkNBIH7lAQEl9gP/XIujtLKrVf2l7MaR50rM/BO9wCkYQeHy 7UoISphHlxs8PScnxkw6PQsVHerd+FnxPJQ2xAnCa1gUujxuif8OrsYpInVcfEap 99KkC39DzAe+/zHrOR2Kt7MK+X8267oCIWl4Yt1VBkCSt8ruktCnIXF41ghyuHUt 3N7reRPx6Hs= =EMeF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Anyone have the complete info on CP list alternatives?
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 5:35 PM +0200 2/18/97, Alan Barrett wrote: >On 18 Feb 1997, Bryan Reece wrote: >> Filtering out other gateways' messages will reduce load at >> the possible expense of delay (assuming a smallish network of news >> servers that feed each other the list; obviously the message will >> flood the majordomo net before it floods the real usenet unless >> something is seriously broken). > >Why is it obvious that mail propagation will be faster than news >propagation? News propagation times of small numbers of seconds are not >at all uncommon. News propagation in seconds to your _local server_, or to _distant_ servers? Articles I post do indeed appear "immediately" on my local site, but certainly not so immediately on distant sites. The Usenet is thousands of news servers, maybe tens of thousands, and news feeds take a while...small articles are mixed in with hundreds of megabytes a day of binaries. A percolation process, as opposed to a point-to-point process for e-mail. And I know that my site sometimes does not see articles for tens of hours, even days, after the initial act of distribution. (Sometimes articles appear more than a week late...presumably they've been lost to mu site on some railroad siding someplace.) This is why people say "News is slower than mail." --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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