December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:55 PM 2/1/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: > More seriously, that estimate is the cost of breaking DES on >custom hardware, based on Wiener's figures. Ian got RC4-40 in 3.5 >hours on I don't know how much hardware, not a lot of it custom, AFAIK. http://now.cs.berkeley.edu is the home page for the Network Of Workstations CPU farm. Mostly Suns with some recent generation of Sparc chip. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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RE: Fighting the cybercensor
by blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Steve Schear I sincerely doubt that many would use AP to right small slights, anymore than many now kill others for the same reasons. The world has always been inhabited by bullies and tyrants who cared little of what harm they caused others. An AP system would quickly eliminate bullies and tyrants. .................................................... Some of them. But like an infection which can be potentialy killed with antibiotics, ignoring the unhealthy conditions which made it possible to establish itself will frustrate the attempts to prevent the phenomena of its recurrence. .. Blanc

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Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

jim bell wrote: > > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem > is solved. > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say, Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered. Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result, he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome. Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies. - Igor.

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Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timothy C. May wrote: > With no false modesty I tried awfully hard to compose > substantive essays on crypto-political topics, often more than one per day. > (Others did too, but they seem to be tapering off as well, leaving the list > to be dominated by something called a "Toto," the "O.J. was framed!" > ravings of Dale Thorn, Dale, that's me! > * To summarize: > - the decision to censor the list was made without any discussion on the > list, without any discussion with at least some of the longterm core > contributors, and was presented as a "fait accompli." > - while John has every right to do with his hardware as he wishes, he does > not "own" the Cypherpunks group (though whether he owns the "list" is a > semantically debatable point) Which is exactly the point I labored so long on while Tim May was sitting on the sidelines. > - whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a > particular mailing list running on someone's home machine...and it cannot > be claimed that any person "owns" the Cypherpunks group. Ditto.

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Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- are you really saying we must dispose of our time honoured tradition of "the best justice money can buy..." ??? say it is not so; where would our legal system be without body trading? as for the communist/socialist ideal of work/need/want where want is suppressed --it does not work; never has, never will. even the religious orders have not made it work over time (other than by fear). on or about 970201:2218 Jim Choate <ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said: +1. Removal of the lawyer from the ultimate choice of whether the case + should be pursued. whew, open the floodgates. free lunch. +2. The minimalization of the defendants and plaintiffs monetary + resources + by removing them from the legal system by choosing the legal + representation of both parties by lot. damn, free dinner, too. +3. By moving the responsibility of police to provide evidence from the + prosecution to the court we equalize the impact of irregularities + in evidence selection as well as minimizing the sorts of evidence + disputes which so impact some trials (ie OJ Simpson). my, we're on a roll, aren't we? +4. By the implimentation of a bond proviso on the part of the + plaintiff + the system provides a check and balance reducing nuisance cases as + well as reducing the taxation load on the citizenry. this is already a factor in the need to pay an attorney his ridiculous fees. being required to post a plaintiff's bond does nothing to equalize the rights of the have nots --most of whom seem to have unlimited resources from the dogooders anyway. Get real, Jim. it may not be the best system, but other than enforcing the principles on which it is founded, and stripping attorney privileges to a percentage of the take, the system works quite well; corruption on the bench is whose fault? ours, just like the excesses in Washington are our fault. it is _our_ failure to insist on clean, representative government and judiciary. and to convert to a pooled system for equality is not going to stop graft -it is built in to human greed. stop apathy on _our_ part, and we will stop graft. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMvTltb04kQrCC2kFAQFRNAP/fJyPvrecq+GEcHygxCqtatySX81OfeaO lCCsgQ5cddvX/tLmSE7+hEN6jBoV3xHkQEbgfDm2mcJWEtGGNMMtNYZCKHrz0Y+l LKUx53PlmByg887Lsf7ta6zjYdE/0pJHtKoBC6hS/uJV3R+2YeWg5sqrsT3t/3oS W4PwmJVq6bc= =mfZQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "Secret" Postal Device stolen
by Roy M. Silvernail 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In list.cypherpunks, toto(a)sk.sympatico.ca writes: >> >>>Postal Service offers $25,000 reward for stolen . . . something > Mail carriers in some areas carry keys for buildings with security > doors (sometimes Master keys). In Minneapolis and Anchorage (the two cities of which I have knowledge) mail carriers have a key that opens not only apartment-style mailboxes, but little boxes on the outside of apartment buildings that hold a key to the building's lobby. Snag one of those keys and a large portion of the city opens its doors to you. (some buildings have further locked doors beyond the mailbox lobby to counter this threat) - -- Roy M. Silvernail [ ] roy(a)scytale.com DNRC Minister Plenipotentiary of All Things Confusing, Software Division PGP Public Key fingerprint = 31 86 EC B9 DB 76 A7 54 13 0B 6A 6B CC 09 18 B6 Key available from pubkey(a)scytale.com, which works now -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvTEUxvikii9febJAQEMEwP+Ji/B1z7uYSJspTij6xH2jUn/JMXmJ7RF drUZruHZNxQv3xGHOPbf4nerDqANgYe/6DzZdrNRhP5RgYTPZp4K1gHDRLhyKAZL EriifeqlXe9X69EDCXSJr8nVSEP1XlSoI2cc9nMFyG42Mwg0Do52WdvhBbZtiM8I zKo9v+3VOqg= =O4dL -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Free & Open Society & toleration
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970201:2001 Jim Choate <ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com> said: +I further hold that one of the current legal practices based on +precidence which MUST be replaced is our system dealing with +defamation. I further hold that our current system of legal +representation is inherently flawed and prevents equal representation +under the law. BULLSHIT why don't you toll the bell for freedom while you're at it, and think about 'for whom the bell tolls.' --it tolls for thee. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMvTgoL04kQrCC2kFAQHeuQP8CtEQx/Rw/fLHqIx9UOfqp3QK4fQXKneV PXDiZvTi9aTLqd/8D64CgNmRizmb26NIMlEBXXt/YreucdYKSWByBkmMozKw7kxY QN3N/of1wZfqbXmJQj2+oV5dG9ieNWM3mkQw8pp79z8qa6jGYMt3xW1aqsYaweR0 Kx8zM9xm8S8= =4Hwo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Reminder: Release 0.4 of my Linux IPSEC code is out.
by Robert Moskowitz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:29 AM 1/29/97 +0200, John Ioannidis wrote: > >Please note that in some countries such as the USA, it is unlawful for a >citizen of that country to provide technical assistance "with the intent to >aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture outside the United >States" of >"Encryption Items". I think there is a partial 'out'. If a US company is attempting to interoperate with your code and fails, they can point to the part of a public specification related to the failure. Such as our implementations failed to interoperate related to section n.m.o of rfc wxyz. But I am not a lawyer, only heard this explaination 3rd hand from a lawyer. Robert Moskowitz Chrysler Corporation (810) 758-8212

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FW: Cyphernomicon by Tim May
by blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(meant to send this to the list earlier) From: Toto Personally, I could care less when people want to play footsie-games with flaming, but I think it points out the ludicrousness of having a moderator limiting people to 'childish' insults. I prefer someone screaming at me what a cocksucker I am. ................................................... Now, you know it has to do with proportion: if Jim Choate, in the course of an ADD-induced discourse on the reprehensability of libelous indiscretions, happens to let out a "Bessie", it's going to be less disconcerting than to read continuous content-less alerts consisting of nothing but declarations against your personal virtue. At the very least, the one provides some cause for educated clarification, while the other leaves nothing to say, but only to filter. However, it's 3:00 a.m. PST and Sandy's asleep right now, so if you really feel like flaming somebody uninhibitedly, now's the time to get past the flame-bot (hee-hee). = Ray Hettinga forwards these long, literate missives advertising this-or-that million dollar a plate conferences, but when he chose to insult me with his own words, the result was an immature blathering which showed questionable literary skills. ............................................. Bad, Ray - Bad! = It would be nice, however, to try to twist the rest of the list around to my own world-view. It gets lonely here in the 'rubber room' at the Home, and I could use some company. ............................................. You're at liberty to try. Why don't you start with Messrs. Jim and Jim. (but, wait - let me set up my Inbox Rules.....) .. Blanc

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Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > jim bell wrote: > > Better yet, set up a system to encourage the public to USE those guns (and > > other weapons) to get rid of the people who pass such laws, and the problem > > is solved. > How about this scenario: I borrow 1 million dollars from, let's say, > Phill Hallam-Baker. Not wanting to pay it back, I pay to the > assassination bot and arrange him to be murdered. Igor, there's an old saying in this country: the best way to lose a friend is to lend him money. > Another story: suppose that I negligently caused fire that destroys > house of, say, Toto. Toto knows that if he sues me, I can arrange him > murdered for the amount less than the amount of damages. As a result, > he refrains from suing me, or (if he is a mean person) pays additional > money to have me murdered. A suit would probably be a much better outcome. Sometimes you have to pay a steep price for negligence, like neglecting to watch how close you get to the edge of the road on, say, Topanga Canyon or one of those (long way down). Now, since people *know* to be extra careful on the canyon roads, don't you think by the same analogy they'd be extra careful with other things when AP is running? > Another story: suppose that OKSAS hired me to work for her, but then > our relationships go south and she fires me. Again, her fate is very > unclear, although I would probably spare her life if it were she. If she does it right, with empathy, there is not likely to be a problem. On the other hand, if she bad-mouths you to prospective employers or customers you want to do business with, you might be inclined to hit her. This happens a lot when AP is not available. > The bottom line is, it becomes very hard to do ANYTHING that disappoints > at least somebody. That can lead to a lot of inefficiencies. To get rid of everyone who pisses you off, you'd have to pay a lot more money than you'll ever have, therefore not a problem. Those people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more people than they already do, because: 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]). 2. Rich people have a lot of eyes on them, and it would be easy to triangulate a series of murders to them, even without hard evidence. In an AP world, this triangulation/correlation would be enough to convince people to either shun this killer, or kill him outright.

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