December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "This post is G-Rated"
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:50 PM 1/26/96 -0600, Mike McNally wrote: >Bill Frantz writes: > > >Enforce? Enforce? Exsqueeze me? > > > > On cypherpunks, Perry is the principle enforcer, although others frequently > > join in. > >Oh, right. I remember now. All the off-topic junk I see on this >list is just my imagination. All the billions of "UNSUBSCRIBE" and >"SIGNOFF" and "SET NO-MAIL" messages I see on the mailing lists I'm on >are just bits of lint that slip by. Absolutely correct. What we don't have is general firewall discussions and general conspiricy discussions (which are directed elsewhere). Perry performs a needed function. >The "enforcement" is always a reactive thing. I don't think you'd get >far with a parent explaining that the material they consider indecent >which somehow showed up on alt.kids.only would be dealt with by >blistering flames. Such parents would not let their children read unmoderated/unrated newsgroups. I think they are failing their children, but they would certainly disagree. >So you think those who want a "controlled cyberspace" would be happy >with newsgroups that stay "mostly decent"? I strongly doubt it, and I >will also add that such "enforcement" is far, far less effective on >newsgroups than on mailing lists. The people who want a "controlled cyberspace" will not be happy. I want explore the consiquences, both technical and social, of taking the control away from them by putting in the hands of individuals and minor children's parents. This approach would destroy their principle argument and make it less likely that they will succeed. However, unlike the motion picture precedent, I think multiple rating agencies will not only be desirable, but necessary. I assume that in addition to the Christian Coalition's rating service there would be a Hottest Pics of the Net service. Bill

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Doctor Denning
by mpd＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I just read the new and improved Dorothy Denning essay at http://www.cosc.georgetown.edu/crypto/Future.html and I must say that I am impressed to see that our august little group has managed to define most of the issues Dr. Denning addresses. She even uses the Gospel According to Tim as her first bibliography entry. One should realize, of course, that whether Crypto Anarchy prevails depends not upon the varied philosophical leanings of citizen-units May and Denning, but rather upon whether our mathematics is more powerful than their jackbooted thugs. Success also depends upon the implementation of widely distributed comunications systems which are not vulnerable to attacks launched against any particular set of nodes, and which obfuscate which processing elements are responsible for providing any specified instance of a service. Crypto Anarchy running on the World Wide Crypto-Mesh. Your guarantee of a government-free future, Denning and friends notwithstanding. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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[rant] A thought on filters and the V-Chip
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

[Not Perry(tm) approved -- Skip of this offends you] I am waiting for someone to come out with a product that will modify the v-ship (or the various internet "protection" tools) in such a way that it scans *FOR* pornography. Porn is big business. You would think that people would pay for a way to sort through all of that non-smuttiness and just "get to the good stuff". I also imagine that as soon as such a product appears, the censors will scream bloody murder. The purpose of all the ratings, and the filters and all the other stuff is not to "protect kids". It is to protect the prejudices of the adults. They do not want to see it anywhere in the world, not just inflicting some sort of imaginary harm on their children. I expect the first people to use the "reversed filters" will be the kids themselves. (Behind the parents back, of course.) I have known too many adults that believe that by restricting their kids access to information, they can prevent them from growing up. In these parent's minds, such information is what makes them want to hump their little brains out. Biology has nothing to do with it in their limited way of thinking. Cluelessness does not just cover computers with these people. It also covers any other topic that required more than two brain cells to understand. But censorship alone will not solve the problems that these people see in the world. They are afraid that somone, somewhere, is commiting "sin". They will do what it takes to stamp out all this immorality, no matter who gets hurt or what it takes. A good description of what is next is at http://www.cum.net/cnextstep.html . You have to realize that these people are busybodies who believe that they have the right to define what is right and what is wrong. In order to enforce these beliefs, they will need access to every means of communication in existance. Anything that prevents this enforcement will be seen as a threat and thus must be banned. Encryption will be one of the first things to go. Double entendres, sarcasm, and wordplay will be next. Fiction dealing with anything that would offend an eight year old (because that is where they stopped their intelectual growth) must be stamped out as well. More will follow as the demons appear in more and more forms. And they will never succeed... No matter how hard the censors have tried in the past to outlaw "smut", it has always existed in one form or another. All they do is drive it underground. If they stamp out crypto, they will just drive it underground. And in the process they will have stamped any freedoms you or I have underground as well... Alan Olsen -- alano(a)teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ National Security uber alles!

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Re: OFFSHORE RESOURCES
by Alex de Joode 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You sez: : There has been sporadic interest on this list with regard to : offshore incorporation, banking, etc. While ads for offshore : services are common in the international press, until now, none : of these companies has an Internet presence. : THE ECONOMIST has an ad for OCRA, a group that specializes in : offshore company services. What's new is that they have a Web : page. It includes a good primer on the benifits from going : offshore and on selected offshore jurisdictions. I've never done : business with these folks, but they have good info. I maintain a small page with offshore resources at: URL: http://www.replay.com/offshore bEST Regards, -AJ-

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No Subject
by gorkab＠sanchez.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I was leafing through the new terms of service from my ISP, and lookie what I came up with: .... stuff deleted * Posting private e-mail to any newsgroup or mailing list without the explicit approval of the sender is strictly prohibited. * Impersonating another user or otherwise falsifying one's user name in e-mail or any post to any newsgroup or mailing list is strictly prohibited. * We reserve the right to take whatever actions we deem appropriate in enforcing these policies, including the ones below. We also reserve the right to change these policies without prior notice at any time. ... stuff deleted The actions we take may include account suspension or termination. We do not issue any credits for accounts cancelled due to policy violations. The second point make me wonder if NymServers are logal to use with my service (PSInet, Interramp) ---------- Brian Gorka Key fingerprint = ED 7D 78 7E 95 E8 05 01 27 01 A1 74 FA 4B 86 53

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Re: Doctor Denning
by Mark Grant, M.A. (Oxon) 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 26 Jan 1996, Peter Monta wrote: > It seemed to boil > down to the vacuous "if everyone could just agree that key > escrow is a good thing, there would be no problem". Actually, I think that's "if everyone could just agree that key escrow is a good thing, there would be no problem. And if they don't, then we'll just ban everything else..." Mark

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Doctor Denning's URL
by mpd＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I screwed up and mistyped the URL in my prior message referencing Dorothy Denning's updated article on "The Future of Cyptography." The correct URL, pasted directly from my browser which is now displaying the article, is... http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Future.html Sorry about that. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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Re: Crypto Exports, Europe, and Conspiracy Theories
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:06 PM 1/26/96 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: >A minor correction. Tim Berners-Lee is British, and was only working at >CERN, which effectively straddles the French-Swiss border, near Geneva. Wouldn't it be awful for CERN if they had to get export/import licenses for PROTONS? Each pass? Sorry, couldn't resist.

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Re: Denning's Crypto Archy
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 09:45 AM 1/26/96 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 02:14 PM 1/26/96 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >> >>Cypherptoady's updatest unscratchable crypto itch and salve: >> >> >>http://www.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Future.html >> >> > >A good read. You know you're making progress when they start to address >your arguments. > >"Although May limply asserts that anarchy does not mean lawlessness and >social disorder, the absence of government would lead to exactly these >states of chaos." >I've never known Tim to offer limp assertations. >DCF While this would normally be my cue to offer up my "Assassination Politics" idea, which (if presumed to be correct) would stabilize "anarchy" and prevent "lawlessness and social disorder" (at least as normally seen by the average reader) I think that under the circumstances that would be redundant here. Jim Bell Klaatu Burada Nikto -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMQk/JfqHVDBboB2dAQHQJAP/aMz9v2iXudFrdiayCTNvgWP7y3u4Qr78 gDGGZt+O5ODrcZuBJTE+CuYBvuhRq/nidtIWrmkIhonBC4+ahP/ryxxLDaJ7usvK BWXgIR5rsEIPjGQsZsH00qlaOZ8fQLeQJ710F0bTpbUuKNIkvpFrXq4vY4kgaIT+ wGLKWFizNnQ= =LOcz -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "Gentlemen do not read each other's mail"
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 09:04 AM 1/26/96 -0600, Mike Tighe wrote: >Perry E. Metzger writes: > >>I am a funny sort of person. I don't believe that governments should >>be able to do anything that individuals cannot. If it is bad for me to >>steal, it is also bad for a government official to steal. If it is bad >>for me to listen in on my neighbor's phone calls, it is bad for the >>government, too. > >I do not see anything funny, but you are at odds with the Constitution, >where the people have granted the government certain rights that they have >not granted to themselves. But it seems we may be making progress at >getting those rights ourselves. It isn't clear to me that the Constitution grants "rights" to the government that aren't already possessed by the people themselves. Would that even be possible? "Powers" maybe, "rights," maybe not. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMQk/8vqHVDBboB2dAQHTywP/aw9I8woDyjTIGgiUc3AB4S9bCGnRsIUo Ggrpc6PCpeIb+irflrffSpopiTJa+PQlMJUG0eXi3Bldi6mBVNCWeW1n1dOzwM9L lWV70S6Zw/CuRfvwH6byw01XdUbIq6egiVTis6/QVo727Q1k03nqeXdmnRo+lt9Q YAHdaDYWVZM= =a6qT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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