December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Quotable Quotes
by nobody＠entropy.linet.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>who was the cypherpunk who said, ``Cypherpunks, It's such a feeling of >raw power over lesser intelligences''? I can't remember. I have seen only one person on this list use TeX style quotes, such as ``Cypherpunks ... '' instead of "Cypherpunks ..." and that person is ld231782(a)longs.lance.colostate.edu. Writing style may not be conclusive proof, but it adds to the preponderence of circumstantial evidence.

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The Zen of Pseudospoofing
by an12070＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

``I don't trust anyone,'' Medusa said with some paranoia. ``do you trust me?'' I said amusedly. ``I trust only software,'' Medusa asserted. ``Who writes your software?'' I wondered. ``I do.'' ``You must get lonely,'' I observed. ``I have all my snakes to keep me company,'' she grinned. * * * Medusa's sisters had fun with their pseudopool of seven. ``Are you pseudospoofing?'' I asked. The sisters said in unison, ``we can assure you that all seven of us are unique.'' * * * Yin said to Yang, `You move!' Yang said to Yin, `No, You move!' * * * A psychopath asked a policeman to apologize for catching him. The policeman refused. The psychopath called him an evil hypocrite. * * * ``You're paranoid. There's no Medusa.'' ``Am I talking to Medusa or a Snake?'' I asked. ``I'm a True Snake!'' it said. * * * ``What if someone started a pseudospoofing game, invited you, and didn't tell you?'' I asked Medusa. ``That depends -- Would I be in on the secret or not?'' said Medusa. ``What if they said it wasn't a game but it was?'' I inquired. Medusa shrugged. ``So what?'' I asked her, ``Don't you believe in truth in advertising?'' ``What is `Truth'?'' she asked. * * * Yin said, `You are Yin and I am Yin.' Yang said, `You are Yin and I am Yin.' Yin said, `You are Yang and I am Yin.' Yang said, `You are Yang and I am Yin.' Yin said, `You are Yin and I am Yang.' Yang said, `You are Yin and I am Yang.' Yin said, `You are Yang and I am Yang.' Yang said, `You are Yang and I am Yang.' * * * What if you never woke up from a nightmare? What if someone played a practical joke on you -- that never ended? What if we could live forever? In Cyberspace? * * * Stop the world. I want to get off. Beam me out of here Scotty, there's no intelligent life here. * * * The flower said, ``You can trust me.'' But as soon as I bent to smell its beautiful fragrance, it turned into a cocked steel-jawed trap and SNAPPED. In shock, horror, and intense pain I clutched my face. ``You were a fool for trusting me, and I've done you a favor by betraying you,'' it growled. ``Now you know that any Flower could be a Trap.'' Needless to say, I stopped smelling the flowers -- and planted the seeds for a new family. * * * Medusa was proud of her titanium pipe. She told me, `My pipe is flawless.' `I said, your pipe has two holes.' Medusa said, `the holes are not part of the pipe.' I said, `No. The pipe is not part of the holes.' Medusa frowned and walked away. * * * Medusa said, `Nothing is sacred in Cyberspace.' I said, can I quote you on that? She said, `No. Privacy is sacred.' * * * I was talking to a tentacle. `Is it a lie if a tentacle lies?' The tentacle said, `No.' I asked Medusa, `Are you a liar'? She was silent. * * * I asked Medusa to talk to me. ``Only in Cyberspace,'' she said. ``Do you trust Cyberspace?'' I asked. ``No, but you should.'' I asked Medusa, `Why can Cyberspace be trusted?' She said, `Because there is a Real World.' * * * Medusa's snake said, ``Why are you so paranoid?'' I said, ``I'm afraid of poisonous snakes.'' It said, ``You shouldn't be.'' * * * I asked Medusa, ``How many snakes do you have?'' Medusa said, ``There are no snakes. There are only my sisters.'' * * * Three Identities and the Liar were talking to each other. ``You can find me if you need to,'' said one. ``You can talk to me if you want to,'' said another. ``You can get lost,'' said a third. ``You can find me if you need to,'' said one. * * * ``I don't trust anyone,'' said Medusa. ``who do you talk to?'' I asked. Medusa began to cry. * * * Medusa liked to write under the influence of LSD. She thought that it brought out the best in her prose. One day, she stared at her collection in horror. It was all perversely senseless. But the mood passed. Later, she couldn't remember if she had taken LSD or not that day. * * * One day I called Medusa on the phone, long distance. ``Who am I talking to?'' I asked. ``Me,'' she said. I wanted my money back. * * * I shouted to many people that Medusa was coming. They didn't listen. Later, Medusa tricked them all into losing their life's savings. They said it was my fault that they didn't believe me at first. ``We couldn't hear you.'' * * * Medusa was proud of the many books written by her Snakes. She considered them masterpieces of art. But one day, a tiny spark lit a fire in one. The fire raged with intensity. The whole array was reduced to nothing but black ashes. Medusa first went insane, and then committed suicide. * * * I heard on the radio that we are being invaded by aliens. I didn't believe it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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Re: Online Shopping and Banking? (fwd)
by szabo＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 23:39:07 PST From: ptrubey(a)shl.com (Phil Trubey) Message-Id: <9311180739.AA18523(a)technet1.shl.com> Subject: Re: Online Shopping and Banking? > From: bobk(a)cyberspace.com (Bob) > To: com-priv(a)psi.com > Subject: Online Shopping and Banking? > > The options to shop and do banking transactions electronically have > proven to be a highly desirable services on other commercial networks. > The Wall Street Journal recently had an article that said PCFlowers > on Prodigy has become one of the top five FTD sellers of flowers. > Microsoft announced today that it is getting into the home electronic > banking business with US West and US Bankcorp. I'm sure that the > Internet will soon have such services. > > How far is the Internet from being able to provide reliable avenues > for online financial transactions? What would it take for reliable > email-ordering on the Net? How about banking and stock transactions? > Is the primary roadblock the security issue of sending sensitive > financial information (such as credit card numbers) over the Net? > > In addition to the mechanics of how to implement such services, I'd > like to hear some thoughts and predictions on the evolution of this > important and probably inevitable development and its effect on the > character and nature of the Internet as we now know it. > == > > Bob (bobk(a)cyberspace.com) Seattle, Washington > FYI: there is a mailing list in place where developers/designers are developing an Internet Mercantile Protocol. This protocol will enable buy/sell transactions to be conducted over an unsecure network, such as most of the Internet. You can subscribe to the list by sending a request to imp-interest-request(a)thumper.bellcore.com - archives are accessable via FTP on thumper.bellcore.com in /pub/devetzis/imp. Minutes of the last BOF meeting are archived there as well as slides for one proposed IMP implementation. While there has not been a ton of activity on this list recently, there are at least two groups hard at work putting finishing touches on some new proposals for the list to consider. Phil Trubey | Internet: ptrubey(a)shl.com Systemhouse Inc. | Voice: 310-809-5491 | Fax: 310-860-9668

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y
by nobody＠rosebud.ee.uh.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> I don't understand this idea of building up trust just to betray >> someone. Maybe some cypherpunks can explain this in detail to me. `` too much but never enough; tear it up and watch it fall. ''

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Characterizing Cypherpunk Culture
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

- E.Hughes: public vs. private - Cypherpunk culture research materials - CryptoAnarchist Manifesto and Cypherpunk Charter - True Name detection - an introspective note E.Hughes, Mysterious Cypherpunk Leader --- In my extensive research into Cypherpunk pseudospoofing culture, I've come up with a lot of apparent contradictions in what is known about the mysterious figure, E.Hughes in particular. It would be an understatement to say that he values his privacy! Anyway, his mail to me under his True Name is always very terse, and I'm not allowed to publicly quote any of his tentacles without violating the Pseudospoofing Religion (I wouldn't want to offend anyone or break any taboos). So, in my interest in profiling the culture and its leaders, I'm hoping that some CA cypherpunks interested in promoting their ideology and their leader can help fill in the blanks. One thing I have stumbled on is the cryptic references to tax evasion and black marketeering. It appears that he may be alluding to these in his public speeches. This based on mail by A.Chandler (another person who is hard to track down). Can anyone elaborate on these? This would certainly not be an invasion of his privacy. No transcripts are available, unfortunately. Also, it never seems that these speeches are announced ahead of time. Does anyone issue these announcements officially? For example, E.Hughes popped up at the Austin EFF meeting awhile ago and there didn't seem to be any advance warning to the list at large so that people might attend. I'm sure he wants to maximize his exposure and the Cypherpunk `movement'. Also, a prominent cypherpunk told me that E.Hughes had proseletyzed the religion of pseudospoofing to him, so to speak, and that the latter was his great inspiration in setting up a site to permit it. Mr. Hughes never has publicly stated anything on pseudospoofing, except that `that which cannot be enforced should not be prohibited' and `the claim that a person should be limited in pseudonyms represents a profound misunderstanding.' Is he promoting it behind the scenes? Another thing about Mr. Hughes I don't understand, and has always baffled me -- a long time ago he posted a statement about some kind of Unix email message log files, a standard and well-known UNIX file, and Mr. Finney or someone corrected him and said, `You have rather demonstrated your lack of Unix knowledge'. Well, I was greatly confused by that then, and even more so today. Mr.Hughes, from my personal mail, strikes me as someone who is a mastermind of Unix software, nooks and crannies, and security weaknesses. Maybe even SMTP and DNS (Mr. Metzger is an authority on the latter). Sort of the `hacker ethic'. I wonder if that little statement was actually a disinformation stab, to prevent others from suspecting his amazing prowess! And if H.Finney was E.Hughes' tentacle, that would explain some things too! I also wonder if T.C.May's professed aversion to Perl code is in the same category. (This is really a shrewd way to throw off people who are into those annoying `investigations'.) I would like to look at any software Mr. May has written. Also, he seems to have a great fluency for the Mac, which would make for some other great portrayals. Another mysterious reference is that of collaboration between A.Abraham and E.Hughes. I believe T.C.May remarked that they are working on digital cash protocols. I got the impression that they may be running the site ah.com (`Abraham-Hughes'). Do they grant accounts to anyone who requests? Like A.Chandler? A.Chandler said that he posts to the future-culture list, and told me he has written some books, but I can't find them, and he is evasive in email. Is A.Abraham posting to the list under different pseudonyms? could someone tell me what they are? (I got a bizarre mail error sending him something once, maybe an SMTP expert or someone from crl.com can help me. Who maintains that site, anyway?) A. Abraham also popped up in RISKS lately, saying that he had watched my `deterioration'. Thanks for your concern, but I am quite all right, and alive and well! (A., I'm not sure where you got the idea I was `deteriorating' -- I haven't sent you any mail over many weeks, unless you have been tickling me with some tentacles out there, hee hee. Or maybe you are just privy to my private mail to the `inner circle'.) I'm sure that many will criticize my inquiries above as `invasions of privacy'. That, after all, is what the cypherpunks stand for! Let me assure you that is not my intent whatsoever. I simply wish to understand the Cypherpunk culture in all its grandeur, and promote it accurately to the concerned public, who may perceive it as quite subversive! (Markoff called you `the most self consciously ornery group', but I realize that's quite an understatement!) But let me say that I think true leaders with integrity have always had to sacrifice teir privacy. It is a basic requirement of fame and influence -- in holding one's achievements up for public scrutiny, the public affords you greater reputation. Shirking from the public, particuarly in response to their simple entreaties, is counterproductive and extremely damaging. After all, if you have nothing to hide, you can be proud of your public reputation, and look at it as a hard won accomplishment for your diligent and honest efforts. This is how you establish that all important element of *trust* among the public, who will perceive you less as a subversive threat than a privacy advocacy group! (A less subversive title, like the self-proclaimed `radical libertarian' P. Metzger advocates in RISKS, `the government keeping its fingers out of our affairs.') Research Materials --- CA meeting minutes are nonexistent as well. People seem very hostile to documenting them. It's quite annoying, discouraging, frustrating, and unfortunate. I'm interested in tracking the progress of the digital cash and identity obstruction infrastructures under development. I don't understand why CA Cypherpunks are so secretive about their projects. I thought they were interested in collaborations, based on the public mailing list. There's a distinct feeling that the CA people are `insiders' and everyone else is just the audience. I guess this could be one reason that people shriek so much over pseudospoofing accusations here -- they see the distinct boundary between `them' and `us', but promote the deception for `them'. This is partly my concern in the `secret mailing list'. If there is one, I think the CA 'punks should be honest about it and not deceive anyone else. In fact, I think that maybe the CA 'punks should just have their own mailing list unless they want to publicize and collaborate with anyone in Cyberspace, not just whoever can make it to their CA meetings. What is the criteria for people to get on the secret mailing list, `project development free of paranoid ranters', anyway? Do you have to be in CA? Is pseudospoofing outlawed on that list? I always thought that *this* list was for project development, but of course now realize it's just the public cypherpunk international PR outlet. One thing I wonder about the intensely secretive Cypherpunks. Don't you think that the Internet was pretty much built up with entirely public, open debate and interaction? With things like cooperation and collaboration between people, instead of hostile flames between different cliques? Do you think you have the right attitude, conducive to harmony in future Cyberspace? It seems to me all these secret conspiracies and quasi-criminal philosophies are somewhat fundamentally against the grain of a hospitible Cyberspace. Well, as I always say, `to each his own!' or `live and let live!' as long as no criminals are involved! Also, I thought I heard something about cypherpunk archives somewhere, by Al Whaley, maybe at cpsr.org. Does anyone know anything about that? It seems to me an archive would be a great project. Who has archives, and to how far back to they go? G.Broiles was telling me he had a pretty good collection. (I consider him one of the most imaginative authorities on cypherpunk culture I've had the privilege of talking to!). The Cryptoanarchist Manifesto & CypherPunk Charter === The Cryptoanarchist Manifesto by T.C.May and the Cypherpunk Charter are very interesting, but they seem to be speaking metaphorically -- `thinly veiled', as I believe P. Metzger wrote in RISKS. They never refer directly to things like tax evasion, although the former does hint at what might be referred to as `cyberspatial guerrilla warfare' -- clearly a central tenet to the cypherpunk agenda. (see soda.berkeley.edu) One thing that I wanted to ask everyone's opinion on. At the end of the CryptoAnarchist Manifesto there is a references to a revolution that ensued `barbed wire fences' -- useful social infrastructures that protect private property rights, etc. But suddenly, Mr. May ends the essay with `you have nothing to lose but your barbed wire fences'. This was quoted in the NYT article. My question: this doesn't make sense to me unless `barbed wire' is a metaphor for something else. It seems to me that the Cypherpunks would want to advocated `barbed wire' in the sense that it protects their privacy rights! But the metaphor appears to go deeper than that. I think `barbed wire' may actually be a metaphor for *identity* and `fences' are the aspects of social institutions (such as laws and customs) that protect identities, such as proper attribution, crediting, etc. The cypherpunks, of course, are more interested in *blurring* those distinctions with things like misquoting, pseudopools, pseudospoofing, impersonation, etc. than in Privacy itself. (`you have nothing to lose but your barbed wire fences.'). The metaphor makes sense in this interpretation! The two documents are full of these kinds of subtle, invisible metaphors. In fact, a very large amount of postings and email by the `cypherpunk culture' are! Boy, I was quite deluded to think that the `cypherpunks are what they stand for' so to speak. I would appreciate if anyone knowledgeable could clarify their meaning (especially the authors! but that is a lot to hope for right now!) The lack of a basic document describing the Cypherpunk agenda by top leadership in pseudospoofing is definitely constraining and a serious obstacle to describing the Movement (given that it forms the invisible core of it) but, as everyone can attest, that hasn't deterred me so far. (BTW, I have to properly credit S.Boxx as helping me come to the `barbed wire == identity restrictions' idea. Thanks!) True Name Detection --- One thing I don't understand, either. J.Dinkelacker once talked about the list in long, introspective terms about being a Game with different Opponents and Teams and Names. (I can dig this up if anyone wants to see it.) I never fully understood that message -- it is deep with many metaphors and even allusions to Extropians. The thing that is puzzling about it was that at the time, J. Dinkelacker was a list newcomer, and newcomers generally don't comment on the long history of the list like this! The thing that was most fascinating about the post, however, was the apparent allusion of the distinction in `True Name' vs. pseudospoofed posts here -- he compared True Name posts to the pseudoanonymous ones, and said they were all pretty much the same, and that True Name posts had been easily as hot as the worst Pseudospoofed ones. But my question -- how could he tell the difference? N.Szabo has also made references to support being measured by `how many True Name' posts take one's side. N.Szabo also recently suggested that he is a tentacle, that he was retiring as one, and that the CA cypherpunks were quite amused by the `detweilering' (is that the right term?) exorcisms. This is interesting because it also confirms the `CA Pseudospoofing Clique-Conspiracy' scenario. `Mr. Szabo', are you really a tentacle? (Unfortunately, as pseudoanonymous posting goes, I've never gotten an honest answer to this question to date!) I'm flabbergasted if this is true, because you have built up such a tremendous net.reputation in many quarters. Would you be willing to tell me what you True Name is? Because you allude to my private mail and telephone calls to some cypherpunks (who you say have `compromised their privacy' in giving me their phone numbers, I'm not sure why) I think you must be in the thick of things! Your knowledge would be extremely valuable at this point. If someone else was posting under J.Dinkelacker or N.Szabo, I'd really like to talk to you. How do you know which posts are real, and which ones are fake? Is there a group of you people out there, who can tell, and have fun with this exclusive information? Obviously, being able to separate the Snakes from the Medusa Sisters is critical to understanding most of the traffic here! People who didn't see the distinction might become quite frustrated after awhile, especially from mail in their private mailboxes! I guess that those with tentacles would be upset if they are complimented, too -- they would want to reserve the powerful reputation-influencing right to compliment or criticize others for themselves. (That reminds me of all the flames I got over my facetious L.D. Cypherpunk Awards.) This cypherpunk culture sure is baffling sometimes. NYT and Wired articles only scratch the surface. (I suspect that letter to Wired on the subject was pseudospoofed, maybe eminent cypherpunk S. Sandfort, who has written for the magazine repeatedly, can clarify.) There are definitely many layers. Who knows what lies concealed at the center! Future anthropologists are going to have quite a difficulty in characterizing it! What we have here is an elaborate hoax far surpassing War of the Worlds -- except that when the `show was over' Orson Wells quit and apologized over the public uproar! an introspective note --- BTW, perhaps a hundred cypherpunks or tentacles have criticized my `florid' style over the months (great term, T.M.!). I have to credit A.Abraham as being one of the first great Cypherpunk Flamers to my mailbox on the topic. I tried over the past week to change my style a little, with short snippets with less organization and information, less indexing, no headings, less original material, no `congratulations' or intense analyses (obviously, everyone knows what everything means anyway, and these are far better left to the tentacles, so they can improve their reputations) more long quoting (like the `pseudopool' joke, hilariously funny), less attention to actual current dialogue, great hostile, ad hominem flames in the spirit of PM's best, terse statements with the utmost brevity and none of that nagging elaboration in deference to EH's `concision', none of those tedious informative forwarded materials that you've already seen, no independent reporter-style inquiries of prominent people like J. Bidzos, etc. This is all to accomodate the cypherpunks who have sent me hundreds of telegrams complaining about my more well-written pieces. I apologize for all of you in taking your valuable time in your mandatory readings of my dense prose. I'm sure the Cypherpunks list is a far better place, with many new people being converted and projects being accomplished, without my endless, blathering drivel, such as long, meandering paragraphs that seem to contain a lot of important information and complex, prolix vocabulary, but are really nothing but a `borg paranoid rants' according to the eminent cypherpunk newbie J. Dinkelacker, a `tale of sound and fury, told by an idiot, signifying nothing', like the brilliant pseudonymous dramatist Shakespeare once wrote, who could have been Francis Bacon, but because of someone's ingenious facade, no one really knows or gives a damn, and ingenious and eloquent cypherpunks like E.Hughes, T.C.May, A.Abramson, G.Broiles, H.Finney, N.Szabo, and P.Metzger, and all those other wacky and conspirational pseudospoofing CA cypherpunks, interested in saving Humanity from the Draconian Orwellian Totalitarian Oppressive Evil Corrupt and downright Unpleasant Gubberments to replace them with CryptoAnarchy and Digital Terrorism, Espionage, Sabotage, and Warfare (all's fair in love and war!), even to the extent of brainwashing honest people and demonizing and stalking opponents like S.Boxx and G.Spafford into quivering insanity and poisoning cyberspace and corrupting DNS databases and SMTP software and keyservers with toxic waste and establishing imaginary interstate telephone numbers and accounts and fake media accounts by insiders that all unequivocally prove their unique existence and dominance over `lesser intelligences' by raping and their white virgin minds and urinating on their Beliefs (the raw power of which is Liberating), or, that is, particularly in these cases, use this brilliant Shakespearean metaphor to no end in their clever disinformation campaign surpassing that of War of the Worlds and NeverEnding, under the leadership of the most evil megalomaniac since Hitler with hideously majestic plans for World Domination far surpassing His Royal Eminence, as documented in RISKS 15.25 and 15.27 and 15.x (?) by the insane man but brilliant satirical exorcist on his holy jihad, which has spread to very many lists such as the `Internet Mercantile Protocols' list and CERT's only being the mere tip of the tentacles, so to speak! I remain yours -- the humble historian-servant of the Cypherpunks.

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Re: The Republic of Desire (anonymous organizations)
by cfrye＠ciis.mitre.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> My only problem with this is knowing how to organize the >"guerilla cell structures" or whatever it was he mentioned. Anyone have >a ref for something that discusses guerilla cell organizations? The classic Russian model (late 1800's through the October Revolution) was to have three-person cells, each of which had one person who knew one person above them in the hierarchy and someone who knew one person below them. This makes for good security as there is no redundant information in the network and one failure breaks the chain. I don't have any specific citations in mind, but the Russian history instructors at A&M might be a good place to start. Best regards, Curtis D. Frye cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they pay me and make you feel foolish."

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Re: Quotable Quotes
by smb＠research.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>who was the cypherpunk who said, ``Cypherpunks, It's such a feeling o f >raw power over lesser intelligences''? I can't remember. I have seen only one person on this list use TeX style quotes, such as ``Cypherpunks ... '' instead of "Cypherpunks ..." and that person is ld231782(a)longs.lance.colostate.edu. Writing style may not be conclusive proof, but it adds to the preponderence of circumstantial evidence. For whatever it's worth, I use ``this'' quoting style as well. When you do enough writing in troff and LaTeX (they both use it), you train your fingers accordingly. --Steve Bellovin

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Re: Privacy != right?
by cfrye＠ciis.mitre.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

One element of the "right of privacy" debate I've seen is the distinction between a "right _of_ privacy" and a "right _to_ privacy". Linguistically, "right _of_ privacy" == "privacy right", indicating that this particular right would be enumerated somewhere. In the case of a "right _to_ privacy", the concept is a bit more vague and allows the penumbral (implied) construction given by Stanton. Since there is no specific mention of a "right _of_ privacy" in the Consititution, one must fall back on the implied construction and interpret Constitutional privacy as defined by other amendments. What this construction of the "right _to_ privacy" allows is for appellate courts to weight enumerated rights as more important than implied rights. Thus, in the name of furthering the goals of another amendment (say #6, speedy/public trial), the courts can limit the implied "right _to_ privacy". Best regards, Curtis D. Frye cfrye(a)ciis.mitre.org "If you think I speak for MITRE, I'll tell you how much they pay me and make you feel foolish."

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The Republic of Desire (anonymous organizations)
by allan＠elvis.tamu.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Let's start a new topic, and mr. deitwieler is not invited. Has anyone considered how an organization like The Republic of Desire from Gibson's _Virtual Light_ novel could be created/formed? It seems to me that it would be an excellent example and development motive for the crypto-anarchy tools: the DC-net protocol, Zero Knowledge Proofs used for anonymous credentials, reputation-nets/webs-of-trust, etc. etc. My only problem with this is knowing how to organize the "guerilla cell structures" or whatever it was he mentioned. Anyone have a ref for something that discusses guerilla cell organizations? -- Allan Bailey, allan(a)elvis.tamu.edu | "Freedom is not free." Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations | allan.bailey(a)tamu.edu GCS -d+ p--- c++++ l+++ u++ e++ m++ s n+ h+ f g+ w+ t+ r y+ "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." -- George Bernard Shaw "Armadillos....those are the meanest suckers you're ever gonna wanna see... But you gotta kill 'em the first time, otherwise they get this revenge thing in their heads and they come lookin' for ya......." -- (i got this from the 'zine Armadillo Culture)

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Numbered Bank Accounts (Was "privacy and rights")
by an15489＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> >> I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but to the best of my knowledge >> Switzerland no longer allows numbered bank accounts. Also, from >> my studies of international banking, bank secrecy and tax havens, >> I have never seen any reference to numbered bank accounts in >> any country other than Switzerland, including Liechtenstein (although >> Liechtenstein does have better secrecy safeguards than Switzerland. > >"Jack Daniels" has never looked hard enough -- many countries (Austria >comes to mind) allow completely anonymous accounts, with various >degrees of restriction on them. > "Perry Metzger" doesn't carefully read the postings which he directly quotes before passing judgement. I never claimed that nobody offers completely anonymous accounts. I claimed that, to the best of my knowledge, nobody offers the "numbered accounts" that used to be popular in Switzerland. Austria does offer "bearer share" accounts which are completely anonymous, but are quite different than the "numbered accounts" of old-time Switzerland. In a "numbered account", the owner uses a hand-written rendition of the account number as a signature. The hand-written number is compared against bank records to validate the authenticity of the owner. "Bearer share" accounts, which are available in Austria, are issued to the user with some sort of ceritificate of ownership. Anyone (the "bearer") who has possession of the certificate ("share") can withdraw money from the account. No signatures or hand-writen numbers are used to verify the owner. If Austria does offer true numbered accounts, then I stand corrected. "Jack Daniels" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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