December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Help unsubscribe me!
by clueless＠mindvox.phantom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Could some kind-hearted cypherpunk out there PLEASE help me get my name off of this list??!? I've tried every combination to cypherpunks- request of which my fevered noise overloaded cerebrum could think-- but to no avail... If there's a moderator here perhaps he/she/it could unsubscribe me, otherwise if someone would e-mail the secret spell to me directly I'd appreciate it (as I've had to resort to deleting all that comes from this list without reading it...)... Thanks in advance, Your Flame-weary Fool, clueless(a)phantom.com

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privacy and rights (short reply)
by an15489＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> >> Numbered bank accounts and even lines of credit >> exist and will continue to prosper. > >One can hope so, but when the Swiss numbered bank account, the >canonical example, vanishes, I begin to have doubts. > >[Let's hope it doesn't get this far. Besides, there's always >Liechtenstein :)] > I hate to be the bringer of bad news, but to the best of my knowledge Switzerland no longer allows numbered bank accounts. Also, from my studies of international banking, bank secrecy and tax havens, I have never seen any reference to numbered bank accounts in any country other than Switzerland, including Liechtenstein (although Liechtenstein does have better secrecy safeguards than Switzerland. Today, Cayman Islands has more international money in its bank than any other country in the world due to their bank secrecy and favorable tax status (ref: Forbes Magazine). Jack ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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The `Reputation' of Cypherpunks
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've been thinking about this concept of `reputation'. It seems that the Cypherpunks seem to treat it differently than many other people. Many cypherpunks have the argument, `I assign no reputation to messages whose owner I have never met, or have no trust for.' But it is impossible not to be influenced by any message. When you read a message, it is influencing you. The only message that has `no reputation' is no message at all. Also, this preoccupation seems to violate one of the Cypherpunk dogmas, `there is only a message'. Isn't that kind of a bizarre statement? What if Ted Bundy, Hitler, and a Psychopunk posted 99 messages to the Cypherpunks list, and Jesus Christ posted one. Furthermore, suppose no one knew who posted what, in a pseudospoofing scenario. Who would want to subscribe to this? Apparently, it would be Utopia for some Cypherpunks. Another thing about Cypherpunks is that they think that reputation is something you can `cash in' when you need to. For example, in that rather amazing message by Mr. Szabo recently, he seemed to be completely cashing in all his reputation chips just for a cheap thrill. Doesn't that damage everything he has *ever* said, if he suddenly says, `I admit it! I'm a tentacle! I lied in RISKS!'. I don't understand this idea of building up trust just to betray someone. Maybe some cypherpunks can explain this in detail to me. I remember flaming D.Denning rather searingly over the issue of truth (over her involvement with Clipper) a long time ago, and maybe someone else along my long visit to this little dark corner of cyberspace. Mr. T.C.May was upset by my messages. He said that it was generally not a good idea to `demonize' one's opponents, because it `rarely served a useful purpose.' I have been thinking about these words a lot lately. I wonder -- is it okay to `demonize' someone with Tentacles? Maybe that is the preferred method. I guess that would explain a lot! One final question I have. If I get an anonymous phone call to my answering machine, how does that relate to reputation? should I give this phone call ``Lance, stop posting to cypherpunks'' (as I did today at about 730 or so) any merit? Should I give it more or less than anonymous mail? threats from tentacles in my mailbox? to my postmaster? I'm quite confused. Also, suppose this person had reached me personally, e.g. I picked up the phone. Should I have given that conversation more merit, because some two-way dialog took place? What if the caller still remained anonymous? What if he called me `Linda' instead? The call reminded me of an interesting comment by J. Dinkelacker -- `he's a borg'. I was watching Robocop at the time I got the call, and it was kind of funny in that context. If Medusa would like to explain to me precisely why she prefers that I not post to Cypherpunks, and how this does not detract from the forum but enhances it, can someone have her call or email me? All I have been getting are tentacle-grams for many weeks now. It's quite frustrating.

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real-life pseudospoofing examples
by Karl Lui Barrus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I thought I'd try to unearth some real-world "pseudospoofing" just so Mr. Detweiler and other interested in this could have other tangible examples. While I can't do justice (i.e. research further) to these items right now, I've found two examples in the little digging I've done. First, Mary Ann Evans published "Silas Marner" under the pseudonym of "George Eliot." She purposely chose a male name in order to masquerade as a male since women couldn't be novelists at the time. It is unknown how long she pulled this off, but nevertheless is an example of someone who created a false identity in order to deliberately fool others. I don't know what the reasons were for Eric Blair (George Orwell), Samuel Clements (Mark Twain), or Charles Dogdson (Lewis Carroll) to publish under pseudonyms. The second (possible) example of pseudospoofing was relayed to me by my parents. They live in Prince William Country, Virginia, where apparently Walt Disney Company has announced plans to build another amusement park. A representative of Walt Disney Co. bought the land over a period of several years, consistently misleading real-estate agents as to his intention and who he worked for. He claimed to be based in Phoenix, Arizona, and often would head towards a different terminal in Dulles airport in order to make business associates beleive this. Maybe he even flew there every once in a while, I'm not sure (parents are mailing various articles to me). Obviously, he did this in order to keep Disney from being screwed on land prices. He pseudospoofed to do it. He created a false identity, lied to others about it. So I look forward to mention of the Walt Disney Company as a many-tentacled, satanic practicing pseudospoofing, subversive criminal organization. Maybe even in the next issue of RISKS :-) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLOsARoOA7OpLWtYzAQEdOAP7BUPVtHa0fZOBHOaLSZsQBkcZipcMAhTl DWF9q0ANATQJ/g8oOA3OhehbIhmTUrFqpKQM6qt/VZVyjTTTV+3arZ8xMHCf3iTF 6vt6XR5vBRI2nJcF+jDfhFxOKkLAYjOytOQ8UloSqIYPevOlVoIIRf0kYs0slEsY ERV3Jk+seUs= =HOiI -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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the Lies of Cypherpunks
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Could an eminent psychopunk explain to the several dozen sane people left on the list: Suppose that a real person signed someone else's imaginary identity for a key in a key server, or for their own. Can someone explain to me why this is not dishonest? I guess the argument will be, the signor is only guaranteeing that some key is associated with some email address. But that seems to me to abuse the whole idea of trust in people. Has anyone asked PRZ what he thinks of the practice of real people signing imaginary identities? or key servers corrupted with phantom identities?

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Re: Secure phones - STU3
by Phil Karn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As far as I can tell, basic compatibility among STU-IIIs calls for the 2400 bps LPC-10 coder as a minimum. So it's universal. It works, but it sounds pretty bad, so there's been a lot of work on newer and better vocoders. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect the Motorola coder you mention is probably one of several manufacturer-specific algorithms, sort of like the manufacturer-specific high speed modes you find on some fax machines. FED-STD-1016 CELP (Codebook Excited Linear Prediction) at 4800 bps seems to be the up-and-coming standard for newer phones, and it indeed does provide *much* better voice quality than LPC-10. Unfortunately, it also requires many more DSP cycles. Phil

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/dev/null for e-mail; remailer diffusion structures
by szabo＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Like zero in arithmetic, the "device" /dev/null serves a useful purpose as a kind of "syntatic glue" for Unix shell programs. I wonder if such a "bit bucket" for mail might also be useful for anonymous remailers. A couple examples: * To provide multiple endpoints for a mail message, so that the remailer list becomes a tree (or at least one branch with a bunch of leaves). This might be done with syntax like Request-Remailing-To: remail(a)tamsun.tamu.edu <remail@tamsun decrypts to reveal> Request-Remailing-To: next(a)destination.com Cc-Bit-Bucket: hfinney(a)shell.portal.com Cc-Bit-Bucket: remailer(a)utter.dis.org where "Cc-Bit-Bucket" causes the tamsun remailer to randomly generate a message of identical size, paste a "Bit-Bucket:" header, encrypt it with the hfinney remailer's public key, and send it to hfinney. When the hfinney remailer decrypts the message and sees the "Bit-Bucket:" header it deletes the message. remail@tamsun repeats this process with remailer(a)utter.dis.org, and sends the real mail message on to next(a)destination.com. To the traffic analyzer, bit bucket messages are indistinguishable from real ones (as long as the sender properly encrypted the next message layer with next(a)destination.com's public key). Remailer bit bucket branching might be useful for adding confusion when it's impractical to delay the mail to mix it with other traffic (either because it's time sensitive or due to lack of other traffic). Bit bucket accounts could be useful if the destination receives a regular, identifying pattern of traffic (eg a unique number or size of encrypted messages). To foil traffic analysis, set up a bunch of pseudonymous accounts at various sites that serve no other purpose than sending and receving bit bucket messages. It then looks like many sites are receiving that pattern of traffic. * To provide endpoints for confusion & diffusion loops. For example: Request-Remailing-To: remail(a)tamsun.tamu.edu <remail(a)tamsun.tamu.edu decrypts to reveal> Cc-Loop: 7 iterations: hfinney(a)shell.portal.com, remail(a)tamaix.tamu.edu Request-Remailing-To: next(a)destination.com Does the same as above, except the randomized carbon copy is put in a loop between remail and hfinney (in real life we'll want more than two remailers in the loop). After 7 iterations remail dumps the message, terminating the loop. Instead of "Bit Bucket:" the remailers might paste a loop counter, where 0 causes the message to be terminated. Remailers might set limits on the number of loops and destination sites, charge postage, or both, to make sure these techniques don't soak up the available bandwidth. With sufficient bandwidth and software tools we might get fancy and be able to choose routing patterns from trees, acyclic and cyclic graphs, randomized branching, fractal branching, etc. if we find any such patterns better at thwarting traffic analysis. Nick Szabo szabo(a)netcom.com

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Re: Quotable Quotes
by nobody＠entropy.linet.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>who was the cypherpunk who said, ``Cypherpunks, It's such a feeling of >raw power over lesser intelligences''? I can't remember. I have seen only one person on this list use TeX style quotes, such as ``Cypherpunks ... '' instead of "Cypherpunks ..." and that person is ld231782(a)longs.lance.colostate.edu. Writing style may not be conclusive proof, but it adds to the preponderence of circumstantial evidence.

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The Zen of Pseudospoofing
by an12070＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

``I don't trust anyone,'' Medusa said with some paranoia. ``do you trust me?'' I said amusedly. ``I trust only software,'' Medusa asserted. ``Who writes your software?'' I wondered. ``I do.'' ``You must get lonely,'' I observed. ``I have all my snakes to keep me company,'' she grinned. * * * Medusa's sisters had fun with their pseudopool of seven. ``Are you pseudospoofing?'' I asked. The sisters said in unison, ``we can assure you that all seven of us are unique.'' * * * Yin said to Yang, `You move!' Yang said to Yin, `No, You move!' * * * A psychopath asked a policeman to apologize for catching him. The policeman refused. The psychopath called him an evil hypocrite. * * * ``You're paranoid. There's no Medusa.'' ``Am I talking to Medusa or a Snake?'' I asked. ``I'm a True Snake!'' it said. * * * ``What if someone started a pseudospoofing game, invited you, and didn't tell you?'' I asked Medusa. ``That depends -- Would I be in on the secret or not?'' said Medusa. ``What if they said it wasn't a game but it was?'' I inquired. Medusa shrugged. ``So what?'' I asked her, ``Don't you believe in truth in advertising?'' ``What is `Truth'?'' she asked. * * * Yin said, `You are Yin and I am Yin.' Yang said, `You are Yin and I am Yin.' Yin said, `You are Yang and I am Yin.' Yang said, `You are Yang and I am Yin.' Yin said, `You are Yin and I am Yang.' Yang said, `You are Yin and I am Yang.' Yin said, `You are Yang and I am Yang.' Yang said, `You are Yang and I am Yang.' * * * What if you never woke up from a nightmare? What if someone played a practical joke on you -- that never ended? What if we could live forever? In Cyberspace? * * * Stop the world. I want to get off. Beam me out of here Scotty, there's no intelligent life here. * * * The flower said, ``You can trust me.'' But as soon as I bent to smell its beautiful fragrance, it turned into a cocked steel-jawed trap and SNAPPED. In shock, horror, and intense pain I clutched my face. ``You were a fool for trusting me, and I've done you a favor by betraying you,'' it growled. ``Now you know that any Flower could be a Trap.'' Needless to say, I stopped smelling the flowers -- and planted the seeds for a new family. * * * Medusa was proud of her titanium pipe. She told me, `My pipe is flawless.' `I said, your pipe has two holes.' Medusa said, `the holes are not part of the pipe.' I said, `No. The pipe is not part of the holes.' Medusa frowned and walked away. * * * Medusa said, `Nothing is sacred in Cyberspace.' I said, can I quote you on that? She said, `No. Privacy is sacred.' * * * I was talking to a tentacle. `Is it a lie if a tentacle lies?' The tentacle said, `No.' I asked Medusa, `Are you a liar'? She was silent. * * * I asked Medusa to talk to me. ``Only in Cyberspace,'' she said. ``Do you trust Cyberspace?'' I asked. ``No, but you should.'' I asked Medusa, `Why can Cyberspace be trusted?' She said, `Because there is a Real World.' * * * Medusa's snake said, ``Why are you so paranoid?'' I said, ``I'm afraid of poisonous snakes.'' It said, ``You shouldn't be.'' * * * I asked Medusa, ``How many snakes do you have?'' Medusa said, ``There are no snakes. There are only my sisters.'' * * * Three Identities and the Liar were talking to each other. ``You can find me if you need to,'' said one. ``You can talk to me if you want to,'' said another. ``You can get lost,'' said a third. ``You can find me if you need to,'' said one. * * * ``I don't trust anyone,'' said Medusa. ``who do you talk to?'' I asked. Medusa began to cry. * * * Medusa liked to write under the influence of LSD. She thought that it brought out the best in her prose. One day, she stared at her collection in horror. It was all perversely senseless. But the mood passed. Later, she couldn't remember if she had taken LSD or not that day. * * * One day I called Medusa on the phone, long distance. ``Who am I talking to?'' I asked. ``Me,'' she said. I wanted my money back. * * * I shouted to many people that Medusa was coming. They didn't listen. Later, Medusa tricked them all into losing their life's savings. They said it was my fault that they didn't believe me at first. ``We couldn't hear you.'' * * * Medusa was proud of the many books written by her Snakes. She considered them masterpieces of art. But one day, a tiny spark lit a fire in one. The fire raged with intensity. The whole array was reduced to nothing but black ashes. Medusa first went insane, and then committed suicide. * * * I heard on the radio that we are being invaded by aliens. I didn't believe it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help(a)anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin(a)anon.penet.fi.

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Re: Online Shopping and Banking? (fwd)
by szabo＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 23:39:07 PST From: ptrubey(a)shl.com (Phil Trubey) Message-Id: <9311180739.AA18523(a)technet1.shl.com> Subject: Re: Online Shopping and Banking? > From: bobk(a)cyberspace.com (Bob) > To: com-priv(a)psi.com > Subject: Online Shopping and Banking? > > The options to shop and do banking transactions electronically have > proven to be a highly desirable services on other commercial networks. > The Wall Street Journal recently had an article that said PCFlowers > on Prodigy has become one of the top five FTD sellers of flowers. > Microsoft announced today that it is getting into the home electronic > banking business with US West and US Bankcorp. I'm sure that the > Internet will soon have such services. > > How far is the Internet from being able to provide reliable avenues > for online financial transactions? What would it take for reliable > email-ordering on the Net? How about banking and stock transactions? > Is the primary roadblock the security issue of sending sensitive > financial information (such as credit card numbers) over the Net? > > In addition to the mechanics of how to implement such services, I'd > like to hear some thoughts and predictions on the evolution of this > important and probably inevitable development and its effect on the > character and nature of the Internet as we now know it. > == > > Bob (bobk(a)cyberspace.com) Seattle, Washington > FYI: there is a mailing list in place where developers/designers are developing an Internet Mercantile Protocol. This protocol will enable buy/sell transactions to be conducted over an unsecure network, such as most of the Internet. You can subscribe to the list by sending a request to imp-interest-request(a)thumper.bellcore.com - archives are accessable via FTP on thumper.bellcore.com in /pub/devetzis/imp. Minutes of the last BOF meeting are archived there as well as slides for one proposed IMP implementation. While there has not been a ton of activity on this list recently, there are at least two groups hard at work putting finishing touches on some new proposals for the list to consider. Phil Trubey | Internet: ptrubey(a)shl.com Systemhouse Inc. | Voice: 310-809-5491 | Fax: 310-860-9668

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