December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful
by Michael Motyka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I didn't think of this before but add together bees, wind and rampant tree sex and this stuff will definitely spread. It could even become a bit of a "problem". The people who have packets of seeds should distribute those quickly to friends before the buggerers get the mailing list and start confiscating seeds. BTW - I believe that citrus hybridize freely, rather like mentha in that respect. Wild and cool. I think he should do apples next. Then strawberries. Peaches. Beans. A whole fucking farmer's market.

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Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone(fwd)
by Michael Hohensee 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Albert P. Franco, II wrote: > > I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and I am amazed by the level > of utopist muck that is being spewed here by you. I love you, too. > Without some government the Bad Guys will be the only ones with anything. > It is only with the threat of losing their power that leaders do good. If > they had no power which could be lost or taken they will always do what's > best for them in the short term, which is usually to shit on the peons. > Dictators (like Pinochet and Gates) do their dirty deeds because they feel > no need to placate the masses. If they wield no real power, and proceed to do whatever is best for them in the short term, they will be screwing themselves over in the long term (or short term, if doing what they want results in someone shooting them in self defense). And precisely what dirty deeds has Mr. Gates ever done? Excluding those actions in which the judicious use of state regulation was involved. > This anarcho-capitalist spew is so much crap that the bullshit indicators > are blaring at top volume. If the people can't control a constitutional > government, known for having peacefully free elections for over two hundred > years, then how the hell do think you can convince somebody that the people > are going to be able to control warlords and monopolies. It's called, "You > don't like it? Bang, Bang, you're dead!" Yah, and then somebody else points a gun at Mr. would-be warlord and goes Bang, Bang, he's dead (it's unsafe having warlords about --sorta like scorpions). That is, if Mr. would-be manages to shoot me without being shot himself. > Try to lift yourself out of the bullshit of your theory and give us at > least one REAL example (current or historic) of a large scale, long lasting > anarcho-capitalist society. Hippie communes are too small, and make sure > it's capitalistic. If you can't think of one in the next year or so then > come back and tell us. It hasn't happened yet. But then, neither had the USA, before 1776. The above is not a reasonable argument. You can, of course, as me how it *could* happen. And unfortunately, you're partially correct, it couldn't happen under current conditions. The amount of personal firepower that is easily accessible by everyone is not sufficient to back up the soverignity of each individual. It's all linked to whether weapons technology is such that individuals can operate weapons which are just as effective as those wielded by highly trained and specialized groups. The pendulum of weapons tech. swings back and forth over time. During the American Revolution, the pendulum was on the side of individuals, as can be shown by the fact that the revolutionaries were carrying better weapons than those carried by professional soldiers, and could use them to equal or larger effect. Today, of course, the pendulum is on the other side. Tanks, fighter planes, aircraft carriers, etc are where it's at. Read "Weapons Systems and Political Stability" by Carroll Quigley, for an interesting analysis on the subject. Of course, the pendulum keeps on swinging, and there are some indications that it's moving back. For example, anti-aircraft missiles have gotten so small that they can be carried by one man. In any modern war, planes had better be damned careful of what they fly over, lest they get a missile up their rears. So, all we need right now is to produce either a convienient impenetrable shield, or perhaps high-energy weapons. When one man can take out a tank with an inexpensive handweapon, we'll be all set. :) Michael Hohensee

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RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:38:55 +1000 > From: Reeza! <howree(a)cable.navy.mil> > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd) > >Like I said, at least your more honest than the rest of these wanna-be > >thieves. > > Your earlier reply on honesty was to Petro, I think you are confusing me > with him. Then the two of you are more honest than most of the anarcho-whatever folks I've come across. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd )
by Michael Motyka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Clyde wrote: > > Long but fascinating... > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > 9 November 1998 > > DATELINE--Tallahassee, Fla. > Oranges that get you high > =========================== > > A Florida Biochemist designs a citrus tree with THC. > > In the summer of 1984, 10th-grader Irwin Nanofsky and a > friend were driving down the Apalachee Parkway on the way > home from baseball practice when they were pulled over by > a police officer for a minor traffic infraction. > > After Nanofsky produced his driver's license the police > officer asked permission to search the vehicle. In less > than two minutes, the officer found a homemade pipe > underneath the passenger's seat of the Ford Aerostar > belonging to the teenage driver's parents. The minivan > was seized, and the two youths were taken into custody on > suspicion of drug possession. > > Illegal possession of drug paraphernalia ranks second > only to open container violations on the crime blotter of > this Florida college town. And yet the routine arrest of > 16 year-old Nanofsky and the seizure of his family's > minivan would inspire one of the most controversial > drug-related scientific discoveries of the century. > > Meet Hugo Nanofsky, biochemist, Florida State University > tenured professor, and the parental authority who posted > bail for Irwin Nanofsky the night of July 8, 1984. The > elder Nanofsky wasn't pleased that his son had been > arrested for possession of drug paraphernalia, and he > became livid when Tallahassee police informed him that > the Aerostar minivan would be permanently remanded to > police custody. > > Over the course of the next three weeks, Nanofsky penned > dozens of irate letters to the local police chief, the > Tallahassee City Council, the State District Attorney > and, finally, even to area newspapers. But it was all to > no avail. > > Under advisement of the family lawyer, Irwin Nanofsky > pled guilty to possession of drug paraphernalia in order > to receive a suspended sentence and have his juvenile > court record sealed. But in doing so, the family minivan > became "an accessory to the crime." According to Florida > State law, it also became the property of the Tallahassee > Police Department Drug Task Force. In time, the adult > Nanofsky would learn that there was nothing he could do > legally to wrest the vehicle from the hands of the state. > > It was in the fall of 1984 that Biochem 101: How to > John Chapman Professor of design a > Biochemistry at Florida State Cannabis-equivalent > University, now driving to work citrus plant > behind the wheel of a used Pontiac > Bonneville, first set on a pet Step One: > project that he hoped would Biochemically > "dissolve irrational legislation isolate all the > with a solid dose of reason." required enzymes for > Nanofsky knew he would never get the production of > his family's car back, but he had THC. > plans to make sure that no one > else would be pulled through the Step Two: > gears of what he considers a Perform N-terminal > Kafka-esque drug enforcement sequencing on > bureaucracy. isolated enzymes, > design degenerate > "It's quite simple, really," PCR (polymerase > Nanofsky explains, "I wanted to chain reaction) > combine Citrus sinesis with Delta primers and amplify > 9-tetrahydrocannabinol." In the genes. > layman's terms, the respected > college professor proposed to grow Step Three: > oranges that would contain THC, Clone genes into an > the active ingredient in agrobacterial vector > marijuana. Fourteen years later, by introducing the > that project is complete, and desired piece of DNA > Nanofsky has succeeded where his into a plasmid containing > letter writing campaign of yore a transfer or T-DNA. > failed: he has the undivided The mixture is transformed > attention of the nation's top drug into Agrobacterium > enforcement agencies, political tumefaciens, a gram > figures, and media outlets. negative bacterium. > > The turning point in the Nanofsky Step Four: > saga came when the straight-laced Use the Agrobacterium > professor posted a message to tumefaciens to infect citrus > Internet newsgroups announcing plants after wounding. The > that he was offering transfer DNA will proceed > "cannabis-equivalent orange tree to host cells by a mechanism > seeds" at no cost via the U.S. similar to conjugation. > mail. Several weeks later, U.S. The DNA is randomly > Justice Department officials integrated into the > showed up at the mailing address host genome and will > used in the Internet announcement: be inherited. > a tiny office on the second floor > of the Dittmer Laboratory of > Chemistry building on the FSU campus. There they would wait > for another 40 minutes before Prof. Nanofsky finished > delivering a lecture to graduate students on his recent > research into the "cis-trans photoisomerization of olefins." > > "I knew it was only a matter of time before someone sent > me more than just a self-addressed stamped envelope," > Nanofsky quips, "but I was surprised to see Janet Reno's > special assistant at my door." After a series of closed > door discussions, Nanofsky agreed to cease distribution > of the THC-orange seeds until the legal status of the > possibly narcotic plant species is established. > > Much to the chagrin of authorities, the effort to > regulate Nanofsky's invention may be too little too late. > Several hundred packets containing 40 to 50 seeds each > have already been sent to those who've requested them, > and Nanofsky is not obliged to produce his mailing > records. Under current law, no crime has been committed > and it is unlikely that charges will be brought against > the fruit's inventor. > > Now it is federal authorities who must confront the > nation's unwieldy body of inconsistent drug laws. > According to a source at the Drug Enforcement Agency, it > may be months if not years before all the issues involved > are sorted out, leaving a gaping hole in U.S. drug policy > in the meantime. At the heart of the confusion is the > fact that THC now naturally occurs in a new species of > citrus fruit. > > As policy analysts and hemp advocates alike have been > quick to point out, the apparent legality (for now) of > Nanofsky's "pot orange" may render debates over the > legalization of marijuana moot. In fact, Florida's top > law enforcement officials admit that even if the > cultivation of Nanofsky's orange were to be outlawed, it > would be exceedingly difficult to identify the presence > of outlawed fruit among the state's largest agricultural > crop. > > Amidst all of the hubbub surrounding his father's > experiment, Irwin Nanofsky exudes calm indifference. Now > 30-years-old and a successful environmental photographer, > the younger Nanofsky can't understand what all of the > fuss is about. "My dad's a chemist. He makes polymers. I > doubt it ever crossed his mind that as a result of his > work tomorrow's kids will be able to get high off of half > an orange." > > Copyright 1994-98 San Francisco Bay Guardian.

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Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd ) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:11:21 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka <mmotyka(a)lsil.com> > Subject: Off Topic But Truly Beautiful (fwd ) > > A Florida Biochemist designs a citrus tree with THC. Geesh, it's about time. I was wondering what the hell was taking these folks so long to map those mechanisms over into other organisms. Good for him! ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: fuck copyright (Re: Advertising Creepiness) (fwd)
by Information Security 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > > Jim Choate writes: > > > > Ah, true but I was addressing the last sentence about the cost being so low > > nobody will charge for it.....sounds like the nuclear industry marketing > > speal of the 50's.... > > One barrier to such an enterprise is the domain name recognition, > people want wired, they type wired.com; what do they type if they want > the lower priced mirrors? Uno momento... http://www.altavista.com Ask AltaVistaTM a question. Example: "Where can I find information on bicycles?" Okay, let's give it a spin... Where can I find information on low priced mirrors? Results AltaVista found about 1,045,119 Web pages for you. 1. In this site you'll find low priced computer hardware including Pentium CPU 2. Pasadena Pins & Patches - Low Priced Jewelry - Die Struck Enamel 3. Pasadena Pins & Patches - Low Priced Jewelry - Photo-Etched 4. BUSINESS BOOK SALE! Excellent online, low-priced books here! 5. Low Priced Beanie Baby Link List Guide 6. Pentium Computer Systems and Low priced computer components 7. Inexpensive Software Cheap Software Low Priced Software 8. D&R Computer - Your source for great low priced home PCs and business systems. 9. THE UNDER $10 STOCK REPORT - Low Priced - High Yield Stocks 10. Spider Web Designs - low priced web-site design, development, hosting, and cre Hmmm, let me try that again. The "+" is a meta-search character, meaning required. Where can I find information on low priced +mirrors? 1. Miscellaneous Optical Suppliers. Polarizers. 2. The Bronze Face Mirror is a large (14 x 12 cm) mirror made out of clay. 3. The Eye Rings that have a diameter of 2cm are made from a special clay. 4. This Mermaid of Flower ? make up shelf (24 x 84cm) is made from wood. 5. This large (20 x 30 cm) Corset mirror is made from clay and wood. 6. The Large Space Ship Mirror is now made from wood (70 x 45 cm) 7. Gold-Leafed Oval Mirrors. Original designs, sophisticated finishes, and remarkable wholesale prices. [ DING DING DING DING! ] 8. These Wooden Lips are available in Red, Pink and Purple (76 x 53 cm). 9. The Little Devil is a large (14 x 16 cm) face mirror made out of clay. 10. Goderich Chrysler Plymouth Dodge Trucks, Goderich, Ontario, Canada, new and used vehicles Wow. Just like 4th-generation development languages put programmers out of business, these search engines will eliminate the need for any other form of advertising. ---guy

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PiCoBello-Web-Speed-Installation-Instructions
by PCBSUPPORT＠PICOBELLO.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:40:16 -0500 > From: Petro <petro(a)playboy.com> > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > No, I am saying that since EVERY government at one time or another > treats its citizens like roaches, it's time to radically change the nature > of it so that it basically can't be called a government any more. The problem isn't government, it's the people who enforce the government that abuse it. > >Well actualy it's whether it has a tax stamp whether you sell it out of a > >storefront or a truckbed is irrelevent. Considering the number of people wh= > Wanna bet? Absolutely. I happen to know a whole passel of beer, wine, and liqour makers. Austin as aswim in micro-breweries. I'd be more than happy to pass your email address to the enibriated set and let them argue the point with you. > Most states have fairly strict laws concerning where liquor can be > sold. Actualy it's not the states (at least Texas and Louisiana), it's the local cities. The state of Texas doesn't care as long as you pay your liquor license and don't sell to minors and obey the local zoning ordinances. Texas Alchohol and Drug Abuse Commission 9001 N. IH-35, #105, 78753 512-349-6600 Texas Attorney General Office Taxation: 512-463-2002 Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission 512-458-2500 > Which is completely irrelevant as to wheter or not it is currently > black market or not, which is the context I was working in. > > Stay on target. I am on target. The fact that a unregulated alcohol industry led to death, debilitation, and financial hardship justified the imposition of regulation on alcohol and its related operations. You just don't want the entire picture painted because it cast a harsh light on the premise that un-regulated economies are good things. > >Not necessarily. The doctor has to have a medicaly supportable reason to > >dispence those drugs. Otherwise it's just as black market as Joe's. > > Quibble Quibble. You know EXACTLY what I meant. Yeah, you meant to commit an act of ommission so that your position looks more favorable than it actualy does. > >Didn't think of theft? Jesus H. Christ, you gotta be on Joe's drugs. The > >vast majority of material sold on *ANY* black market is stolen from its > >rightful owner. It is *the* example of black market trading that most folks > >think of first. > > No, the vast majority (in terms of dollars) of stuff sold on the > black market is Drugs. Really? Drugs are what $10B US a year or so. I bet stolen automobiles when taken as a whole gross more loss than that. And what makes you think that the vast majority of that drugs aren't purchased at the street level with funds gotten from theft? The drugs may not be stolen, the dollar that they were bought with was in most cases. > Treat theft like any other economic activity, and figure out how to > make it unprofitable. Let me know when you figure that one out. > >How the hell do you sell something on the black market if you don't have > >possession of it? And exactly who is going to prosecute anyone for > > Easy, it's called a Con. > > Seriously tho, I said that the _selling_ of stolen goods might not > be illegal, but the possesion of such things, and the stealing of them are > seperate acts to the selling of them. Still doesn't answer my question. > There isn't a need to. Shoot them. Ah, so you admit that the general mechanism to settle inter-personal dispute under your plan is to allow people to run around shooting each other. Well, at least we've got an honest admission that murder would be legal in this system. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:07 -0500 > From: Petro <petro(a)playboy.com> > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Really, you are saying they couldn't possibly recognize the > benefits of teaming up and co-locating fire stations, or that they wouldn't > sub-contract to a company that handled fires? So, you want to sub-contract out which is going to raise the cost and doesn't alleviate the insurance company from regulatory and supply issues. It'd cost a fortune. > This could still be more effcient than government. I'd love to see your cost breakdown... > "reasonable" in cost? There is a LOT if inefficiency in the system > that competition could eliminate. Yep, and a lot of people the competition would eliminate as well. I'll live with the inefficiency as long as the cost is affordable for the quality of service delivered. I don't mind fireman sitting around eating bar-b-q unless somebodies house burns down. > Read that last bit. They got so carried away, that they spent > themselves out of existence. That is one example, I know of several fortune 100 companies that are equaly extravagant. The problem with Compu-Add was they shot their whole wad. > Governments just raise taxes, there is no penalty for ineffcientcy, > or lousy spelling. Sure there is, it just takes longer than a rifle bullet to settle. > Ok, so you limit the senators and congressmen, then the unelected > beaureacrats have the power since they know the system and run the system. Not at all, they are limited in what they can do by the laws. It's not like they're running around sending bills to people out of the blue and making up the system as they go along. Despite your protestations to the contrary the system just don't work that way. > Wearing a painted leather jacket & ripped up blue jeans is NOT a > reason to get hauled off the street, searched and questioned. If it happened to you and you didn't file a harrassment complaint then you got what you deserved. If you don't use the system it won't work. Never happened to me or anyone I knew unless they were in particular places at particular times. If a cop busts people at a corner every nite for breaking the law it isn't the cops fault, it's the stupid people who keep doing the same damn thing at the same place knowing full well the consequences. > Looking different is not illegal. > > Thinking different is not illegal. Nobody said it was and it isn't. Now if you happen to fit the description of another perp well that's just too damn bad. > With a bunch thrown in at the federal level. Federal Matching Funds > & etc. Oh, malarky (and stay away from my business books). It's obvious you never do accounting. The matching funds are for roads outside of the city or for highways that transit cities. They are not supposed to be used for city street or FM or RM roads. > Then why do they keep building them? Because we still hav an Army whose job it is to defend this country you nit-wit. If we didn't keep fixing them and expanding the system as people move around and expand the Army might find it a tad hard to do their job when called to it. And yes, I know the Militia is the one who is supposed to be called in for that sort of stuff - that's a whole other topic. > Promote does not mean "give away", it means "promote", do things > which incourage. Absolutely. While I agree that there are some particular issues that need fixing in a major way that is not the same (as you would have us believe) as saying as a result the whole system should be scrapped. > They were the heads of the governments. The skills and abilities it > takes to get to that level insure that the people who get there have no > concern for those underneath them. Oh, you mean insanity, egotism, neurosis, etc.? > There is no making up my mind. I never claimed the a government > could or should, rather I am claiming that it can't and won't, and to > expect it to be able to, much less willing to is foolish. Ah, but it does try and in some cases it succeeds. So my expectation is not completely without merit. > So we agree that any government is doomed from the start, since > w/out people of honesty and integrity no system will work properly. No, *all* people are not such. Most people I know are honest and have integrity. What has to happen is a set of checks and balances, which we are admittedly short of at the moment. The system isn't perfect, never claimed to be (read the 1st paragraph if the Constitution), and if it remains so then it's *OUR* fault and not the systems. > No, that face that stares back from the mirror makes every effort > to be as honest and forthright as it can. It causes grief sometimes, but > it's the principle. You claim to be honest yet promote a system that allows slavery, murder, theft, and other horrendous crimes against man.... ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:40:11 -0500 > From: Petro <petro(a)playboy.com> > Subject: Re: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the > Foregone(fwd) > I left the good ol' USA too. I now live in a European country with a strong > socialistic government and I actually find very little interference in my > day to day life. In fact there seems to be a much higher awareness that > each I find very little interference in my daily life as well (except when one of you anarcho-cooks starts dropping bombs and threatening people). > Crap. They take 60+ percent of your income in taxes, that means > that they take 60+ percent of your working day. They take 40% of my income, or are you talking of France taking 60% of your income. Disagreement over the level or specific policies for spending it do not justify eliminating the system. > They (at least france) throw up HUGE barriers to anyone wanting to > start a business, especially if they will need to hire workers. This not > only makes it difficult for you to start a business (which would never > happen since you've indicated you like someone else making decisions for > you) but also increases unemployment (prevents others from creating jobs > rather than just begging for them). And you find that a better place to live then the US? > individual is responsible for his and her actions. At the very least there > aren't as many lawyers claiming everyone is a victim of something or > another (ie. too hot coffee, slippery floors, home owners that shot the > poor intruder who didn't get a warning first, etc.) What is the percentage of lawyers in France to the total population? > Ain't no where perfect, anarcho-whatever was done about 4000 years ago, I > generally prefer to look forward... > > So, the fact that it hasn't been tried in 4000 years means it will > never work? > > I guess it's a good thing the wright brothers didn't take that > attitude, nor Robert Goddard. We tried anarchy, it's called cave men. As to Wright and Goddard, they had ample evidence in physics (that's been around what 4.5B years) to build their expectations on. In the field of politics and social system the only thing we have to go with is our imagination, patience, understanding, and past practice. 5k years or a little more. All of those say anarcho-anything systems won't work. ____________________________________________________________________ Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want the right answers. Scully (X-Files) The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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