December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: mac-crypto(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie(a)webstuff.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:43:19 -0800 From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie(a)webstuff.apple.com> To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule hey all; I have posted a preliminary list of sessions for the 1997 Mac-Crypto conference at the Mac-Crypto conference at the webpage http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html if you haven't registered, please get your name in now! if you want to give a talk, please drop me a line asap. Vinnie Moscaritolo http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A ------------------------------------------------------- ...I know what probably happened. A new high-level manager at Apple picked up some old dusty videotape off the shelf, labelled "Super Bowl 1984", played it and said, "Yah know, that guy on the screen was making a hell of a lot of sense until that trouble-maker smashed it!" --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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alt.cypherpunks
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hey, folks, I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting process, or anything else. They just happened. Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds it to the available groups list at his own discretion. It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process, right? Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What about totally uncentralized. Instead of using a system like majordomo.com, each person maintain a list of "subscribers", I would be willing to at least attempt to be one lightening rod for "subscriptions". Since I am using the schools machine to read the list, and I don't have any extra priveledge, I would have to do it manually and might quickly stop, but I would be willing to try. In this way, everyone is moderately censored by the processor time expended in mailing a message CC:'d to everyone, but no one could effectively do any type of blocking of the list. Those acting in the place of majordomo could regularly trade lists for alphabetization, (so that the lists should be identical), and file comparing. This list could then be sent to anyone who wanted to be a "subscriber" so that they could post as well. A more effective way would be to have the distributed list as previously discussed, or even maintain one account or web-page to hold the names, but I can't help with that. Just an idea. One small problem, with such a list, advertisers may feel less obligated to follow standard rules of ettiquite. They may feel that the list is even more "open season" than they as a group feel now. I hope that everyone will post to this thread as I would like to be able to "fall in" with the majority decision. To do that, there needs to BE a majority decision.

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Patrick May wrote: > Before doing this, I'd need the answers to a few questions: > > - Is there still any interest in a cypherpunks mailing list? yes > - Is alt.cypherpunks a better alternative? it is not an alternative, it is a complement. i think that alt.cypherpunks will be a failure because all of the troubles of alt.* hierarchy. > - Majordomo can be configured to require confirmation of > subscription requests, thus avoiding some attacks. Is there > any simple way to protect against mailloops? Directly > accessing the listname-outgoing alias? Add X-Loop: header and use procmail to protect against messages FROM_DAEMON and FROM_MAILER. > - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and > volume? yes, it is the other stuff that's the problem -- memory, connection speed, etc. - Igor.

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote: >>>>>> John Gilmore writes: > >JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the >JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19). And it's a good >JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off >JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist. > >[...] > >JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community. > > This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm >"putting up". I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to >start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. I >didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first >pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to >speed things up. Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which >are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures >taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. As the resulting >mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically >(initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating >majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being >removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list.... You might want to set up a temporary majordomo on the same machine as one of the permanent daemons for debugging purposes. It is conceivable to me that a message might be sent to one sub-list, be forewarded to two lists, and then each of those foreward the same message to each other, causing duplication. You might get around this if the daemons keep track of each others, unique, message ID numbers. In other words, if each unit were to apend the message ID with a personal ID number when the message came from someone other than a majordomo, then they could collate them by number, eliminate duplications, and send them on down the line. To do this, the majordomo daemons will probably have to have a guaranteed seat in the front of the cue. This is probably a stupid point to bring up as you have probably already cured this problem, but I decided to post it anyway.

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NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up") (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:49:46 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > > > This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm > > "putting up". I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to > > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. I > > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first > > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to > > speed things up. Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which > > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures > > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. > I'll contribute what I had planned: > > As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the > beefiest of your 'domo hosts. While it is true I was planning on bringing the Austin Cpunks remailer back (kourier.ssz.com) this rather unexpected expansion has got me backpedalling. So it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get the intial site ready for public access. Right now my ISDN based site is all we have working. We have another site through another ISP in the process of registering and configuration. I have currently created a 'cypherpunks(a)ssz.com' but still have a couple of other issues to work out. The most relevant one is that I will be upgrading both Linux and Majordomo in approx. 2 weeks. We will be discussing this issue further on Saturday at the Austin Cypherpunks meeting. If all goes well with our discussion and my upgrade we should have the SSZ cypherpunks site available in about 2 weeks. Sten and I hope that we can pursuade some others to get involved both running remailers as well as modifying the various scripts. At this point everything we do will be released to the public domain. We also are expecting to add a proviso that all submissions to the cpunks distributed remailer will be de facto public domain unless a specific 'fair use' header is included in each submission. Finaly, another issue that will slow me down is the upcoming SRL show here in Austin. I have committed time and effort so I don't know yet how the conflicts will come or how I will resolve them. The next SRL planning meet is Thu. nite so I will have a clearer idea of my upcoming schedule. > Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the > current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file [much good comments cut out] > Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry > Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography(a)c2.net is excellent > at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages. > > And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others > without their knowledge. These are several of the issues that we will be discussing this Saturday. We will also be looking at various means to distribute the subscriber list. The current lead suggestion is to have subscriptions at any of the cpunks be evenly distributed among them. This would somewhat complicate the subscriber process. Another aspect that I am hot to trot on is setting the system up so that some of the cpunks sites could be anonymous, crypto, or combo remailers as well. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:15 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: >- propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the >"alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many >academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news >to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.) Everybody with a web browser has access to alt newsgroups via http://www.dejanews.com/ -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: STE_pup
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:39 AM 2/11/97 -0500, John Young wrote: > Oracle's new fingerprint checking device to assure bona fide > log-on privileges. Covers other such devices, quotes a maker: > "if criminals or hackers get through these, industry will > step up one more level." Fingerprint readers tend to work regardless if the finger is attached to a body or not. All that fingerprint readers will do is increase the damage to those relying on ever increasing, but misguided, methods of authentication. See the rise in "identity theft" since SSN's began to be used for identification. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

linux with 16 MB ram will probably get you through. igor Alan Olsen wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > At 05:50 AM 2/11/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > SANDY SANDFORT > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . > > > >C'punks, > > > >You have probably just read John's post. I truly hope YOU (each > >and every one of you) can rise to his challenge. If you have > >offered nothing in the past but criticism, it's now time to get a > >bit more real. What will it be, your money, time, equipment? > > What kind of memory requirements/machine load does the list eat up? I have a > machine that may fit this purpose... (Need to know if I need to upgrade the > box though.) > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 4.5 > > iQEVAwUBMwCeq+QCP3v30CeZAQGpwAf+MXRvC4wB6LeJkwsQa7yWI1g2TEYFJZ6O > 1wD1S1QeRu1GMGRfUC3/9OTsQFijQLrOVb3MIXiy7bYxzcZsShd2cgKf4cL3HhjV > T/PH1M2uUEpOJEHLF4jCKvspySgCuLfHK+7V0+fNRO0MFQZZeCNvEd2Awog8Ue0q > OIi/jwBvzNITeBQzGu8zrBuS3VHWjMmi66kio1GV6xFL+JLwQWMsi6hT8hSiZ/TT > fOhvAfECT/hGFFDdu3/R0JYkw1B9IO7Uh0NNgH1pl7HoJiBWfU/HTDoRsruKkweX > 7eDVPxB0MR10Q5XCeoH1EA3Lwd3HdNFVEsUJc+myjN58vnZ5Vo+TGQ== > =CWO1 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --- > | "Mi Tio es infermo, pero la carretera es verde!" | > |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | > | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | > |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| > | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com| > - Igor.

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Re: Network of majordomos
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:08 PM 2/11/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote: >At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote: >>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote: >>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to >>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. >>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which >>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures >>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. > >> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology.... > >> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to >> people who want it as E-mail. > >> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:... > >How about this? The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set >it up. The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead >and set those up. Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah. As I understand the creation process for an alt. group, someone posts a proposal to alt.config explaining what's being proposed, waits a week or so to see if there's a general sense of approval or disapproval or [...] and then they send a newgroup control message. Individual systems will choose to add the new group, or not, depending on local policy, administrator whim, and so forth. I sent a proposal to alt.config last night (a few hours before I got John's message indicating that the list is going away, so I wasn't able to include that fact in my message; it was also ~ 10 hours before I saw Tim's message re alt.cypherpunks so I was unable to include his more useful statement of the group's purpose) and intend to newgroup alt.cypherpunks in a week or so, absent a clear indication from the people in alt.config that it would be rmgroup'ed or otherwise have a poor chance of success. I don't think a "charter" is especially necessary or useful in the alt. hierarchy. One feature of the "alt." groups is that there's no real control over what happens there. If someone creates a one-way or two-way gateway between one or more mailing lists and alt.cypherpunks, there's nothing anyone else can do about it. (modulo cancelbunny/NoCeM, both of which are optionally honored on a site-by-site basis) So, the tracks will meet in Utah if someone decides to hook them up. Perhaps this will be you? As far as I'm concerned, nobody owns the word "cypherpunks" and we're all free to use it in any way we please - e.g., Igor can suggest "comp.org.cypherpunks", eight people can run "cypherpunks(a)foo.com" mailing lists, and so forth. Looking for one unified acceptable-to-everyone solution is pointless on this list. Let "n" flowers bloom. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.

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