April 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Slashdot | National Governments and the Internet?
by Jim Choate 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

http://slashdot.org/askslashdot/01/04/16/161248.shtml -- ____________________________________________________________________ The ultimate authority...resides in the people alone. James Madison The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Cypherpunks, Feds, and Pudgyfaced Voyeurism
by Declan McCullagh 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

The cypherpunks list has become a popular tourist destination in the last two years for voyeuristic Feds in Washington and Oregon. This monitoring has been less cyber-stalking of the chargeable sort, and more a kind of spectator sport, something to chat about with fellow TIGTAians at the water cooler, and maybe launch some investigations every now and then. We all know that, from his own testimony, a pudgyfaced Jeff Gordon has become enraptured by the cypherpunks list. We know from exhibits that he subscribes to the list from apparently a Hotmail account, but the relevant headers were redacted so we don't know which one. We also know that Gordon & co infiltrated the common law court and Libertarian Party and monitored the "northwest libertarians" mailing list. Anyone attending the first Seattle-area cypherpunk meeting next week may want to check for Gordonian bodywires. The real surprise is not that investigator-stalkee Gordon has extended his arguably unethical pursuit of Bell and cypherpunks, but that other area Feds have joined the fun. For instance, Assistant U.S. Attorney Floyd Short teaches a course on cybercrime at the University of Washington law school on Thursdays, and has reportedly made the cypherpunks list a part of his class. Short has also spoken about the cypherpunks list and its relation to online lawlessness during at least two speeches, I'm told. The cypherpunks list, in other words, is a staple of law classes not because of participants' views about privacy -- but because of the number of their number who are now serving time. One assistant U.S. Marshal in charge of moving Jim Bell from the downstairs holding pen to the courtroom confessed to me yesterday that he's a cypherpunks fan. Not in the ending-the-nation-state-through-crypto sense, but he finds the list interesting enough to read on a daily basis through the inet-one archive site. He was puzzled about why it's been down; the speculation seems to be that it's related to cyberpass' problems. He told me he's been a list reader for about two years. Someone could make a tidy profit by compiling a complete cypherpunks archive and selling it to the Feds on CD-ROM for use in prosecutions. Note that if Bell had not posted under his real name to cypherpunks during his investigation of federal agents last year, he would not be facing perhaps five more years in prison. The government buttressed its case against Bell by using each message that could conceivably be relevant as structural support for its Good Society vs. Internet tale to the jury. Email to the cypherpunks list appears dozens of times in the government's pretrial list of exhibits. Assistant U.S. Attorney Robb London led the jury on a post-rich digression about plausible deniability that included posts from occasional participants like Michael Froomkin and Black Unicorn. London argued that Bell's investigation gave him plausible deniability for stalking. During closing arguments yesterday, London brought it up once more: "Let's talk about plausible deniability. It's a whole big part of what the cypherpunks are into." You'll recall that London and Gordon were involved in the prior prosecution of Carl Johnson, another cypherpunk regular. Perhaps the Feds are frustrated since during their obsessive-compulsive cyphersurveillance, they can only listen and not post in response to windy rants about the perils of big government. At least not under their real names. The Tacoma courtroom is a sterile place, kind of Singapore-meets-the-Bastille. Not helping the atmosphere is the half-dozen agents, some armed, who populated the audience benches during the Bell trial. In addition to two reporters, only one non-Fed observer showed up every day; she took notes and posted them to the cypherpunks list. When this unnamed 'punk introduced herself to Bell's parents after a week of being anonymous, all the Feds' heads swivelled to hear what her name was. Like the old-media types they are -- London says he's a former legal reporter for The New York Times -- the Feds hardly appreciated online reports from the trial by John Young and that anonymous local cypherpunk. London, whose courtroom demeanor veers between snide and surly, griped loudly during a recess last week about "glorified stenographers" taking up space in the courtroom. The six bodyguards offered up appropriate nasty glares. But Gordon seems to be the true antipunk. (London has indicated he didn't want to prosecute this case, and missed out on a more high-profile one because of it.) After the jury delivered their partial verdict, Gordon leaned over from his seat at counsel table and asked London to seal the court records. London dutifully requested that U.S. District Judge Jack Tanner seal any information or exhibit or transcript that included home addresses of alleged stalkees. Now, those data are arguably key to the government's case against Bell -- did he drive to this address or not? -- and were discussed at great length in open court. Tanner denied the motion, and Gordon wasn't happy. You can be sure that Tanner has learned all about the "TannerWatch" website, and is hardly amused by it. You can also bet that some unnamed agent will be watching who asks for copies of the court file -- they seem to fear that some local 'punk will try to obtain Bell's diary, which was introduced as evidence and seems to include not just inaccurate home address of government agents, but accurate ones as well. Watch for more investigations here -- apparently court information does not want to be free. Anyone know if that grand jury meeting in the Seattle federal courthouse is still in session? It would be interesting to find out why local papers didn't cover the trial, even after some residents repeatedly suggested they do so. The only other reporter there besides your humble correspondent was a Washington, DC correspondent one from 60 Minutes. Other reporters from local newspapers had covered unremarkable pre-trial hearings at great length, but failed to cover a fairly unusual trial. I'm told they didn't want to have to fight subpoenas. As a former journalist himself, London probably knew exactly how to handle them -- and avoid potentially unfavorable press coverage. Government prosecutors now appear to qualify as technical experts on the cypherpunk phenom, having scrutinized listmember behavior as ants under lenses. London told the jury yesterday that "the one unifying theme that defines someone as a cypherpunk on the Internet is the ability to encrypt mail." One could say the same thing about a NAI marketing flack, but that wouldn't be as quotable. It's all so sad and predictable and sad again. The cypherpunks list had its glory days: Wired magazine cover stories, blossoming technology, and, yes, even those damnable tentacles. Now it's become a convenient way for the Feds to land convictions. -Declan Washington, DC April 11, 2001 Background: http://www.cluebot.com/search.pl?topic=ap-politics http://www.mccullagh.org/subpoena/ This article is at: http://www.cluebot.com/article.pl?sid=01/04/11/238254

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Re: Making the Agora Vanish into Cyberspace
by mean-green＠hushmail.com 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

At 12:12 PM 4/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >I want to apply what I just wrote to the projects of some friends of ours: MojoNation and Zero Knowledge Systems. I say "friends" because long-term list members are either working for them, or founded them, or whatever. You all know what I mean. > >Caveat: I have not talked to principals at either company for a long time. I don't know what they're doing, or even if their companies still exist in the same form (same basic mission) as when I last talked to their principals. Consider these comments to be applicable to companies _like_ these companies. At 11:14 AM -0700 4/12/01, Tim May wrote: >>This makes Yahoo, Amazon, EBay the easy targets for lawsuits by foreign governments, lawsuits by PC groups in America, boycotts (which are OK, of course), and even direct actions against corporate officers. How long will it be before corporate offices at EBay are bombed because birth control stuff is sold on EBay? How long before the President of Amazon is assassinated one night for "allowing" books like "The Satanic Verses" be sold on his system? >> >>These three companies are representative of the trend toward a corporation, readily traceable to a physical location, acting as the "marketplace" location. Even more abstractly, Napster only distributed an _indexing_ application and then provided a forum for indices to be published. And yet what has happened with Napster is and was predictable. >> >>(If you set up a music pirating system, as seen by others, and paint your name and address on your back, you _will_ be sued. A bunch of us pointed this out at a CP physical meeting in early 2000, when Napster was just starting to become known.) >> >>There's a better solution to this "big targets problem": peer-to-peer, a la Gnutella, Mojo, etc. No identifiable nexus of corporate control. Online clearing. Reputation intermediaries. Digital cash (not strictly needed, if N (number of sellers and buyers) is large enough and there is no central clearinghouse which can be sued.) >> >>Making the agora disappear into cyberspace, whether by sheer numbers of sellers and buyers (peer-to-peer) or by robust encryption (a la BlackNet) is an important goal. >> >>"The Theory of the Corporation" needs revisiting. >> >>This is what is missing from the plans of so many of these "Cypherpunks- interesting" companies: they start developing some ideas of how to implement true untraceability, and doing commerce in uncoercible (transactions cannot be physically coerced) ways, then they BLOW IT: >> >>The blow it by incorporating in above-board ways, readily-traceable by any constable or narc or Fed who wants to find their corporate offices in Quebec or Mountain View or whatever village constitutes the capital of Anguilla. >> >>Which means none of these entities can exploit the truly rich markets out there. Markets for online porn of various kinds, markets for "specialty" interests, a free and open and unfettered market in Nazi memorabilia and other such newly-verboten items, and, the gold mine, markets in medical information, credit information, and other such data bases which governments seek to hold monopolies on. (Governments ain't stupid. Being the official Mafia, they know the value of regulating and controlling data bases.) >> >>For those of you who don't fully appreciate what I am getting at, being newcomers, let me move away from such banalities as "kiddie porn" market- -though this is a real market which any truly untraceable tools will facillitate, obviously--and focus instead on the "credit rating market." >> >>Alice defaulted on a loan to Bob some years ago. Do-gooders in the United States decided that Alice's "credit records" should be forced to "forget" this item after some period set by legislative decree. Charles, who was told by Bob by that Alice defaulted on a loan, is ordered by the government that he may not reveal this information to Darva, who is considering making a loan to Alice and is willing to pay Charles a fee for supplying her with what he knows of Alice's past habits regarding loans. >> >>This is, in a nutshell, the essence of the "Fair Credit Reporting Act." This is what laymen, who usually think it a good idea, mean when they say "Your credit records only go back 5 years." >> >>Cypherpunks know that the technologies exist to support bypasses of such contra-freedom laws. Usually called "data havens," though Bruce Sterling got it wrong (no insult meant to him) when he predicted in "Islands in the Net" that such data havens would be on Caribbean islands or in the jungles of Southeast Asia. Physical security is only the equivalent of a few dozen bits' worth of cryptographic security. (At the time "Islands in the Net" appeared, in 1988, I had already presented the "BlackNet" crypto scheme to my Silicon Valley friends Phil Salin, Marc Stiegler, Randy Farmer, Chip Morningstar, and a bunch of the Xanadu/AMiX folks. It did in cyberspace, a la Vinge's "True Names," what Sterling was simultaneously setting out in "Islands.") >> >>(As to the morality of such bypasses, why is the business of government or anyone else to tell Bob or Charles that it is illegal and punishable by fines and imprisonment to tell Darva that Alice cheated Bob at some time in the past? It isn't. >> >>OK, so the crypto tools really do exist to enable "free markets in cyberspace." So it this what Mojo and ZKS will do? Is this what Vince Cate in Anguilla is able to do? >> >>Why is Mojo not becoming the pirate music capital of cyberspace? 1. Because most music down-loaders (and many others with content to share) are lazy and Mojo requires them to take positive action to publish. 2. Because Mojo is sensitive to networks effects (when there are less than a hundred or so users on-line the reliability data retrieval quickly diminishes) and because of factor 1 there is less interesting data being shared. The members of this list with always-on connections could easily put Mojo right by running a client configured to offer most or all of Mojo's services (block server, content tracker, publishing tracker and relay server). This one small thing could provide the needed infrastructure to bootstrap. Come on guys, it can't be that painful to participate, can it? Look, I'm not loaded but if I can get a few dozen list members running the client (BTW, its small and easy to run, doesn't patch the OS, etc.) and stabilize the system, I'm willing to start converting Mojo currency out of my own pocket and pay those offering services. >>Why is ZKS not advertising its software to those interested in nude photos of youngsters? Why is Anguilla not the credit rating capital of the world/ >> >> >>Because each is readily locatable and targettable. These are at least part of the reasons. (I admit that other reasons may be "Because Jim is not interested in being the pirate music capital, because the shareholders of ZKS choose not be child pornographers, because Vince doesn't want to be the credit rating center of the world.") True, but he was/is interested in seeing the technology and the public Mojo service become generally useful. >>The important point is that even if any of these ventures _wanted_ to use their technologies as described above, THEY ARE TOO VISIBLE. >> >>Jim McCoy understands this quite well...and yet he located his operation in a visible way, which surprises me. Cost, priorities and a bit of laziness. But all is not lost. The public code includes almost all of the system and the parts which are missing I have on good assurance aren't that hard to reverse engineer. Free, encrypted, secure Web-based email at www.hushmail.com

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Pleading the 5th
by Anonymous 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

In light of recent "situations" involving cpunks and the courts, I've been thinking about the 5th Amendment. I pose two questions: If called to testify in a criminal case, and asked the question "Are you known by any other names" (or a derivative of that question), could one plead the fifth in order to prevent the disclosure of a pseudonym? If asked the question "have you ever communicated with [third party]", could one plead the fifth if that communication was made through a pseudonym, and tying that pseudonym to oneself could potentially be incriminating?

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HELP ME, PLEASE, I CAN�T WITH THIS INFORMATION. !!GETTINGS!!
by Agapito lopezcaste 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

nesecito ayuda quien me puede asesorar sobre este tipo de informacion aaaaaahhhhhh por cierto los mensajes del enanito como puedo abrir el codigo de este mensaje. >COMMAND > > Novell Remote.NLM Password Decryption Algorithm > >SYSTEMS AFFECTED > > Novell Netware > >PROBLEM > > 'dreamer' found following. Novell is known to use a one-way hash > algorithm in their password encryption, so all captured encrypted > passwords must be brute-forced, slowly and painfully. However, a > few days ago, he cryptographically cracked Novell's Remote.NLM > password encryption algorithm. It is a very weak algorithm > compared to what Novell has implemented in NDS, as it is > instantaneously decryptable. RConsole password encryption is > different from Remote.NLM password encryption because: > > 1) Encrypted RConsole passwords are sent across the wire, via > RConsole. Remote.NLM's encrypted passwords are generated at > the server console by typing REMOTE ENCRYPT MyPass, and they > are optionally stored in SYS:System\LDRemote.NCF. > > 2) They use a different password encryption algorithm. RConsole > passwords are encrypted with information from the workstation > that is currently running RConsole. Remote.NLM passwords are > encrypted with a time byte, one of 255 constants in a hash > table, appended characters, some XORing, and bit-order > separation. > > 3) Encrypted RConsole passwords are locally obtained with a packet > sniffer, but Remote.NLM passwords are remotely accessible to > anyone with the ability to view SYS:System\LDRemote.NCF. > > The Remote.NLM passwords are decrypted using only five steps. To > encrypt, simply reverse the steps. The password will look > something like this: > > AF8CBBF48CA9955F5ADAFDADAA23 > > The structure of the password is as follows: > > AF8CBBF48CA99 55F5ADAFDADAA - 23 > > The first section contains the low-order bits, and the second, the > high-order bits. 23 is the time byte, which is decremented by the > server once every two seconds, from FF to 02, then back up to FF, > etc. > > Step 1) Realign the low-order bits and high-order bits > ======================================================= > This is extremely simple to do. The high-order bits are in order > from the first character to the last, and so are the low-order > bits. Example: > > Password: AF8CBBF48CA99 - 55F5ADAFDADAA, > Output: 5A 5F F8 5C AB DB AF F4 D8 AC DA A9 A9 > > At this point, ignore 5A 5F F8 5C, or the first four bytes. They > are appended somewhere during encryption, and decrypt to "%*@$". > It was a TERRIBLE idea for Novell to implement those four > characters into every single password, as those are what helps > rebuild their hash table from scratch. Also, if the length of the > password is 10, the password is automatically decryptable to nul. > > Step 2) > ======= > Match each of the password characters (group of two hex > characters) to the hash table below. Use their position from the > beginning of the table to determine the value of the pre-hash > encrypted password. Example: F4, the 8th character of the > password, matches the hash table at 95. This means that 95 is the > pre-hash value of F4. Thus far, (ignoring the first four > characters) the password was: > > AB DB AF F4 D8 AC DA A9 A9 > > and now the password is: > > 98 A0 9B 95 A1 9D A6 9C 9C > > Remote.NLM Hash Table > > 00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F > > 00 5B 58 5E 5F 59 5C 5A 5D-73 70 76 77 71 74 72 75 > 10 13 10 16 17 11 14 12 15-7B 78 7E 7F 79 7C 7A 7D > 20 53 50 56 57 51 54 52 55-03 00 06 07 01 04 02 05 > 30 1B 18 1E 1F 19 1C 1A 1D-0B 08 0E 0F 09 0C 0A 0D > 40 2B 28 2E 2F 29 2C 2A 2D-63 60 66 67 61 64 62 65 > 50 83 80 86 87 81 84 82 85-3B 38 3E 3F 39 3C 3A 3D > 60 8B 88 8E 8F 89 8C 8A 8D-33 30 36 37 31 34 32 35 > 70 93 90 96 97 91 94 92 95-6B 68 6E 6F 69 6C 6A 6D > 80 9B 98 9E 9F 99 9C 9A 9D-A3 A0 A6 A7 A1 A4 A2 A5 > 90 F3 F0 F6 F7 F1 F4 F2 F5-AB A8 AE AF A9 AC AA AD > A0 DB D8 DE DF D9 DC DA DD-FB F8 FE FF F9 FC FA FD > B0 23 20 26 27 21 24 22 25-B3 B0 B6 B7 B1 B4 B2 B5 > C0 CB C8 CE CF C9 CC CA CD-BB B8 BE BF B9 BC BA BD > D0 C3 C0 C6 C7 C1 C4 C2 C5-D3 D0 D6 D7 D1 D4 D2 D5 > E0 43 40 46 47 41 44 42 45-E3 E0 E6 E7 E1 E4 E2 E5 > F0 4B 48 4E 4F 49 4C 4A 4D-EB E8 EE EF E9 EC EA ED > > Step 3) > ======= > Subtract the length (the number of groups of hex characters, > excluding the time character) of the full password from each > encrypted password character. Now you have the ACTUAL pre-hash > encrypted password. If the subtracted value is negative then > simply continue from FF down to the negative value. Example: if > the password character is at 04, and the length is 6, the value of > the password character will be FF. The length is 13 (D in hex), > so the password was: > > 98 A0 9B 95 A1 9D A6 9C 9C > > and is now: > > 8B 93 8E 88 94 90 99 8F 8F > > Step 4) > ======= > Get the time var, in this situation 23 (hex), and subtract it > from FF. This new character is for use in Step 5. Example: > > FF-23=DC. > > Step 5) > ======= > Finally, XOR each character (group of 2 hex characters) of the > encrypted password with the new time character, and you now have > the decrypted password! The password was: > > 8B 93 8E 88 94 90 99 8F 8F (before the XOR) > > Now, the decrypted password is: > > 57 4F 52 54 48 4C 45 53 53 > > "WORTHLESS" > > TheRuiner ('dreamer') has written a program in Pascal (oh well) > which decrypts Remote.NLM passwords instantaneously. It was > tested on a password of around 50 characters, and it worked > flawlessly, so there shouldn't be anything to worry about > regarding the length limit. It can decrypt any character, from 00 > to FF, and it will display that value upon execution. The source > of the program is below. > > --- > Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="remote.zip" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > Content-Disposition: inline; filename="remote.zip" > Content-MD5: GJdEvw/Ya/aVRkxDK1lSyg== > > >UEsDBBQAAgAIAPy0hyZ84rYL1AoAAPcqAAAKAAAAUkVNT1RFLlBBU71a227bSBJ9D5B/aMw+ > >SBpdQFIX62IaoERyE0BJBEfZ2AjyQEsdW4BNZikqjncx/5xPmDpsstm8SJaTiTUzHLJ5uup0 > >dVdVV9OLMLgOvTtm81X48DU653dBxN/O3yy87fY+CNeTly9evvg/u3pgyxt+vtv4PGR/iba2 > >H7Cdv4m2bdGyCvxt9PIFY6+87c3Su7rlbMysMPQePmmdjt5vxdfPLPjC3kfhxr/+ZHxmJquj > >C2P1Wn9aa9X6Q1wcXFxcRrjMcLFwsely0sVFw2WAywkuOi49XAxc+rVGK5WrA68DrwOvA68D > >rwOvA6/30Qn6T6D/BPpPoP8E+k+g/wT6T2xFbh9y+5Dbh9w+5PYhtw+5fcjtQ64GnAacBpwG > >nAacBpwGnJbjCx46eOjgoYOHDh46eOjgocMOGnAacBpwGnAacBpwGnCaytcA3gDeAN4A3gDe > >AN4A3oDcAfgOwHcAvgPwHYDvAHwH4DtQ+Q6BHwI/BH4I/BD4IfBD4IewQxf6u9Dfhf4u9Heh > >vwv9XejvqnyHwA+BHwI/BH4I/BD4IfBD8O1Cfxf6u9Dfhf4u9Hehvwv9XZXvCPgR8CPgR8CP > >gB8BPwJ+BL4D6B9A/wD6B9A/gP4B9A+gf6DyHQE/An4E/Aj4EfAj4EfAj8DXgn4L+i3ot6Df > 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AAAEAAQA3gAAACAiAAAAAA== > > ----- > >SOLUTION > > Nothing yet. >gettings for all. >bye > > >Send FREE April Fool's Greetings to your friends! >http://www.whowhere.lycos.com/redirects/American_Greetings.rdct _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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A cite: "Elementary Number Theory"
by Jim Choate 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

Hi, I've a cite for, Elementary Number Theory Underwood Dudley pp. 208 prob. 87 Unfortunately the only copy I can find is a 2nd ed. and the page numbers are off. If somebody who has this book could tell me what the chapter title is and a quote of the problem I'd appreciate it. I want to find out if it's still in the 2nd ed and if so what it's current identity is. Please respond directly, off list. Thanks. ____________________________________________________________________ The ultimate authority...resides in the people alone. James Madison The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Starium?
by Trei, Peter 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

Here it is.... http://www.L-3Com.com/cs-east/programs/infosec/privatel.htm 3DES, 1024 bit D-H, TEMPEST compliant. Handles both voice and data. > ---------- > From: Trei, Peter > Reply To: Trei, Peter > Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 1:35 PM > To: Dr. Evil; 'Declan McCullagh' > Cc: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net > Subject: RE: Starium? > > At the RSA conference I saw a company selling Starium-equivalent > units, both for voice and data encryption. The voice only units were > about $1400 apiece. (frankly, at that price, you could plug a PC > with an A/D converter card between the handset and the base, and > roll your own). > > I'm still decompressing, and have not unpacked all my bumph, else > I'd have more specific data. > > Peter Trei > > > ---------- > > From: Declan McCullagh[SMTP:declan@well.com] > > Reply To: Declan McCullagh > > Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2001 1:46 PM > > To: Dr. Evil > > Cc: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net > > Subject: Re: Starium? > > > > I have a pair of their preproduction units they sent me in December. > > --Declan > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 02:01:10AM -0000, Dr. Evil wrote: > > > Does anyone know if Starium is ever going to release anything? I > > > noticed on their News section that they have engaged an M&A > > > specialist. That's probably not a good sign for them operating as a > > > stand-alone company. email to them bounces. > > >

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Dempster-Shafer Theory
by Jim Choate 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

http://yoda.cis.temple.edu:8080/UGAIWWW/lectures/dempster.html -- ____________________________________________________________________ The ultimate authority...resides in the people alone. James Madison The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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The Theory of the corporation
by brainteaser 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

Thats one thing I don't get about what (many) people post on this list. There is a lot of shit about the government did this and federal agents are doing that, but very little about what corporations do. Partly this is probably because of some sort of a "the market must be right" mentality, even though as I see it we are a long way from any sort of a free market (I see IP law as we have it as a hindrancxe to the free market). Anyway to my point, one pet hate a lot of people seem to have is surveillance cameras. The fact is surveillance cameras exist, and people see they serve a useful purpose. My issue with them is not that the government control them, but that the government don't control them, security firms do. The ideal would be if they were controlled openly at a level far below government, say each street employs their own camera monitor. But thats all irrelevant cos if anyone really has a reason to put up a secret camera they can, and they don't have to tell you about it. If I had a need personally for secure anonymity my threat model would be 1) whoever Im hiding from, 2) interested corporations, with government running a distant third. -------------------------------------- FREE ANONYMOUS EMAIL! Sign up now. http://www.subdimension.com/freemail

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RE: A suggested musical tune
by Trei, Peter 16 Apr '01

16 Apr '01

"Won't get Fooled Again" by The Who. Most of us are familiar with the version on "Who's Next". However, it was originally written for Pete Townshend's "Lifehouse" project, a hugely ambitous and prescient work about escape from a dystopian society, only recently released. Also consider "Ever Breath You Take" by the Police. Peter Trei > ---------- > From: Jim Choate[SMTP:ravage@EINSTEIN.ssz.com] > Reply To: Jim Choate > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 8:02 PM > To: cypherpunks(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com > Cc: The Club Inferno > Subject: CDR: A suggested musical tune > > > "Eve of Destruction" > > There are two 'classic' version. The first by the writer, Barry McGuirre . > The second by The Turtles (released in 1970 when I was 10 years old > learning to love my country and hate my government). > > Look at todays headlines and then listen to the song... > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate >

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