December 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Time to unsubscribe...
by Dr. Evil 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

Basically half the posts to this list are incoherent, idiotic rambling from mattd(a)useoz.com and ravage@... The few bits of wonderfully interesting news on this list aren't quite wonderful enough to motivate me to figure out how to use mail filters. If someone knows of a filtered version of this list, please let me know.

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ecash developer software liability, round 809834
by Ryan Lackey 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

(round 809834 because I'm sure this has been discussed 809833 times at least on this and other lists, but google hasn't found anything interesting for me) (I was going to try to make a long posting on what I felt were the good and bad of the state of play of ecash software development at the end of 2001, but then I spent a few minutes poking through cypherpunks archives and realized that's not much new to say which wouldn't need to be explained in context not a lot of people have. I'd rather spend the time this freezing winter day developing some useful software instead. (configuring some semi-useful software, rather, right now) So instead just a few questions.) What exactly *is* the legal or security liability if a person of independent/offshore means develops and delivers an electronic cash system in an open-source fashion, optionally with no continuing personal involvement in development, or optionally with continuing personal software development involvement but no operational involvement? How much of a difference do the various levels of removal make? (in place of "ecash" feel free to substitute "anonymization", "datahaven", "p2p", "assassination politics bot", etc....the argument is probably generalizable to any unpopular code which involves money and privacy.) I'm unconvinced it's possible to develop any large piece of software in a truly anonymous manner; anyone who *could* develop ecash has enough information available about them online to understand what they did, especially for something as intellectually complex as a workable, vs. minimum-effort, ecash system. There is a small enough number of people who could develop such a thing that a bit of research would show which ones spent every day for the past 3 months shirking other professional responsibilities and contacting credit card processors, writing code, etc. (plus, of course, ego reasons make it unlikely the developers of such a thing could remain anonymous) >From nothing I've seen is the risk anywhere near as substantial as some would suppose. Worst case with ecash is that it is ONLY used for criminal operations; perhaps the ecash operator could be attacked under RICO? I think perhaps the developer could be named if there were more than arms-length interaction between developer and operator, but this becomes more difficult if post-development the developer disclaims ownership. Lets say it is used by real terrorists to finance the purchase of weapons for a weapon of mass destruction, in a single transaction, with no other uses. As long as the developer is not linked to the operation of the system, and the operator of the system is not linked to the end parties, I can see legal or extralegal harassment. (I am perhaps naively assuming US law is the only law which matters; this may not be the case) But what is the absolute worst thing that will happen? Extralegal quasi-governmental execution? Indefinite imprisonment without trial? Successful prosecution under some law? Asset seizure? Being declared a bad person by Ashcroft in a press conference? Not getting invited to FBI agent parties? Scorn and slight regard? You can't "unwrite" code, and if something is done and shut down, but doesn't fail for fundamental reasons, it's just a matter of time before someone else picks up the still-shiny unbroken tools and starts again, perhaps a bit more carefully. If people stopped slanging rock every time someone on the corner got knocked, the ghetto would have a lot fewer BMWs. The DMCA/Dmitri case is certainly one of the most recent, but the end result was effectively nothing. I would be annoyed by spending a year in a federal jail, but it wouldn't seriously impact my life. Being convicted of a felony would be slightly more unpleasant, but not substantially so -- not that I'm convinced there's much which would stick. I don't really need to worry about asset forfeiture, being declared "evil" by Ashcroft would be worth it, and I doubt I'd get invited to FBI parties anyway. Being murdered by the state would also be unpleasant, but is at least fairly rare and unlikely. A media/government character assassination attempt would be unpleasant as well, but would be difficult to make stick given the disrespect large segments of society have for the government and media already. If the risks of developing ecash really are overblown, perhaps that will make it more likely people would actively develop software. That is, aside from the standard "ecash is a complex system technically", "we need money to buy aeron chairs and feed ourselves", "you need to be able to both develop and operate a system to bootstrap, and these are different skills", "it's easier to spend time debating why such a system can't be done or hasn't been done than to actually develop it", "how will anyone make money from it?", "writing code is hard, let's go shopping", "crypto-export regulations", "many have tried, all have failed", "the actual lack of any clear market demand for such a system, and active opposition on many grounds by those necessary to deploy widely", "if I wait long enough someone else will do it for me, and I am lazy", "moral doubts about the goodness of a world with such a system", "the patent thing", "x, y, and z will sue civilly", "writing papers and going to conferences/grad school/etc. is more fun than writing code", and "the fact that a lot of crypto-software developers are even flakier than normal software developers." (I don't think just releasing code is productive, but I think there is a code+limited deployment which would be productive, and is not substantially more effort. I think there are certain technical decisions which must be made by an ecash system with some knowledge of how things are done in practice, but there have been ~10 attempts at developing such things in the past, with lots of info available by talking to the developers or being involved. Mainly what is important is to do as little work as possible, the ultimate goal of any software engineer, and to make sure that as little work as possible is required to use the system. There are certain very minor design, API, and UI decisions which would logically have a very large impact on user perception (end user and developer), adoption rate, and terminal success. I also believe in "start small and imperfect, iteratively improve in a mostly hill-climbing fashion" and some other very simple rules of [open source/internet] software development which have not been followed by previous projects (some of which I've learned myself at some cost). I share the belief that a capitalized, startup-style, large and collaborative project is entirely the wrong way to go about things, and would not invest $1 of my own money in such a thing, but I disagree that it requires any substantial technical *programming* skill beyond any other moderately-complex network + crypto programming library; mainly one needs to know how to avoid doing work. Since to be useful the system must be integrated into applications, a lot of thought needs to go into how to design it to encapsulate nastiness, and integrate with a wide variety of applications. The number one thing required to successfully develop and deploy an electronic cash system today, though, is being simultaneously smart enough to be able to do it, but stupid enough to do it anyway, even given the past failures, lack of rational economic motive, and potential risks. People often do irrational things; sometimes this is constructive, other times it is not, but it's usually interesting, at least to me.) -- Ryan Lackey [RL7618 RL5931-RIPE] ryan(a)havenco.com CTO and Co-founder, HavenCo Ltd. +44 7970 633 277 the free world just milliseconds away http://www.havenco.com/ OpenPGP 4096: B8B8 3D95 F940 9760 C64B DE90 07AD BE07 D2E0 301F

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Shiver me timbers.
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

Today's Birthdays English physicist and mathematician Sir Isaac Newton, considered one of the most important scientists of all time, was born on this day in 1642. Newtons Sleep by Ursula K Le Guin On a future Earth of environmental devastation and political instability, rapidly mutating viruses have caused billions of deaths, and the future of the human race is in jeopardy. When a select group of pragmatists take residence in an orbiting habitat, the occupants begin to see visions of the unfortunates they left behind, and some fear that the environmental deprivation has bridged the gap between reality and hallucination. 1991 1907 -- Activist journalist I. F. "Izzy" Stone, US journalist, lives to tell it like it is, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Washington editor of "The Nation" magazine & founder of the legendary "I. F. Stone's Weekly", Stone specialized in publishing information ignored by the corporate media 1913 -- "The Italian Hall Disaster." In Calumet, Michigan, striking copper miners & their children are having a Christmas celebration; strike-breakers outside bar the doors then raise a false fire alarm. In the ensuing stampede, 73 (roughly half are children) are crushed or suffocated. http://www.csufresno.edu/folklore/BalladIndex.html http://members.xoom.com/elstongunn/1913.html 1914 -- Wilderness advocate John Muir dies, Los Angeles, California. 2001-dec 30.Tim May savaged to death by own security dogs. Buried at sea.no flowers.

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Re: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable coward.RIP.
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

>>Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe > you to be, given your writtings, please correct me) Yeah, I favor freedom and free markets. Obviously<< So you've seen http://world.std.com/~mhuben/leftlib.html and http://world.std.com/~mhuben/ddfr.html ? You must have read "Cypherpunks, high-tech libertarians, and various others mistakenly think technology will eliminate the need for government (if not outright eliminate government.) at http://world.std.com/~mhuben/cypher.html How long would todays freedom's and free markets survive the destruction of the state? http://www.spunk.org/library/otherpol/critique/sp001277.txt >>Something I _don't_ favor is wasting time responding to weird rants like the ones from "mattd." The expression "get back on your medications" is sometimes overused on the Net, but in this case it clearly applies. Is that what they mean by "Ad Hominem attack"? We call it "playing the man,not the ball",down under. >>This "mattd" person oscillates from fawning about "crypto anarchy"<< When anarchy is not the may/friedman crock, anarcho-capitalism. >>to foaming that people like me should be hanged.<< Not foaming,just offering up my humble proffr1 dollar for the rope.No wonder tammy hates APster and anarchy! "The price of liberty is eternal vigilantism." >>All written in an illiterate, pseudo-dyslexic, run-on sentence, crude imitation of John Young.<< Ill take that as a compliment from a pompous windsock like you taffy. >>I have yet to see a single idea come out of "mattd."<< So this is your first response to one of my posts? >>There are more interesting fish to fry. --Tim May, Corralitos, California Quote of the Month: "It is said that there are no atheists in foxholes; perhaps there are no true libertarians in times of terrorist attacks." --Cathy Young, "Reason Magazine," both enemies of liberty. << So tammies the shroedingers cat of the libertarian movement.CALCer to the rotten core he should fry in hell.

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"Your either with choate or your with the Terrorists"
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

What is a slacker? The question is beginning to sound as inane as the answers that have sprung out of the media. It cannot be true that a slacker is in transition between college and the real world, since this demands an acceptance of the concept "real world." Linklater's film seems to suggest that a slacker is in a transition, not between school and employment, but between the dominant conception of reality and his or her own construction of reality. Linklater has superbly crafted this film to fit the style of the community and characters he tries to portray. The camera never remains focused on one character or event, choosing instead to wander among the nearly 100 characters involved. We see a small slice of the character's life, never to return to him or her again. This can be frustrating to some audiences, but "Slacker" never falls prey to being gimmicky for the sake of the gimmick. The camera's choice is apparently random, but not without significance. In the opening scene, Linklater's character delivers a monologue about a book that he "must have written" while dreaming on a bus. He asserts that in any situation where we make a choice, each possible path we could have taken becomes a reality. Besides the implication that he could have, should have or did stay at the bus station (where, as he says, he probably would have met a girl), Linklater also indicates that the medium of film is the perpetuator of a dominant ideology. "We're kind of trapped in this one reality, restriction type of thing," he says, a clue that the film will concentrate on the importance of reality and film to the future of our generation. From Linklater, the camera begins its journey around Austin. We overhear interesting conversations on a wide range of topics, from the Smurfs to George Bush, light-blue collar families and, of course, JFK assassination theories. The discussions are not only amusing, but often poignant, and show a group of people expressing themselves within a reality all their own. Somewhere in the middle of the film, all of the inaction becomes a bit depressing. We have seen a young man run over his mother, then passively submit to the police; we have seen a guy who can't even go outside and relax because it involves preparation; and in the funniest and saddest scene, we have seen a woman who has a sure-fire way of making money: selling Madonna's pap smear (although someone stoled [sic] one of the pubic hairs). One may want to scream, "What is the point here?" This sentiment is shared by the older generation in the film. Wandering by a woman caught for shoplifting, an old man quips to his daughter, "I'm always glad to see any young person doing something." However, this man is not a member of the dominant, work-hard, capitalist society. He is, instead, an anarchist, with his own subcultural philosophy. Of the man who killed President William McKinley, he says the 100 more like him could have changed the world. This older idealist wishes that young people would act to change the society that they refuse to join, much like he did in fighting the Spanish Civil War. Unfortunately, as his daughter points out, the old man was in Spain in 1955, a bit too late to have been involved in the struggle. Does this mean Linklater is attacking the "left" as crazy ideologues? This seems implausible considering his general reverence toward these people. The fact that the old man didn't fight is one particular reality, but not the reality that he accepts. The Civil War is the embodiment of his beliefs, and he feels he was there, trying to make a difference. Linklater sympathizes with him, as well as the other characters. They have not yet found a framework for destructive, subversive or any other type of action. So the characters have not found "framework." If Linklater suggests no possibility of a means of expression, then the concept of a framework is merely an excuse for inaction. But Linklater portrays video and film as such a framework, a hope for the future. In one instance, a guy with a television strapped to his back talks about the "psychic power" of the televised image. He does not believe in video as an automatic cure-all, but sees its possibilities: "We need it to work for us, not us for it." Indeed, the last group we see experiments with the image in an attempt to make it work for them. Somewhere in the editing of their camerawork lies Linklater's hopes. No review of "Slacker" can do more than scratch the surface. It is a work of depth, one of the most forward-looking, subversive, hopeful films ever produced. Well-acted, well-photographed and carefully crafted, "Slacker" proves that $23,000 and dedication can still result in important cinema. by adam joyce brooklyn, ny 2001-12-24 Excerpt from www.spleen.org

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Seasons Greetings
by Jim Choate 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!! -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Soft drilling to end "culture of violence"?
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

President Olusegun Obasanjo canceled a trip to Zimbabwe and called an emergency Cabinet meeting. Afterward his spokesman, Tunji Oseni, issued a statement saying "no effort will be spared" to end Nigeria's "culture of violence in politics." Later Monday, the president ordered army troops into the streets of Osun state amid fears of violence, and state television announced a nighttime curfew in the state. Nigeria, Africa's most populous nation with 120 million people, is regularly rocked by violent feuding along political, ethnic and religious lines. Bose Ehindero, a relative of Ige who answered the phone at the official's residence Monday morning, said Ige and his wife, Tinuke Ige, were in their bedroom when the assailants burst in on them. He was shot despite pleas from his wife, an appeals court judge, to spare his life, Ehindero added. A team of police officers assigned to protect Ige were away from their posts eating dinner at the time, Ehindero said. The Lagos daily newspaper ThisDay speculated the killing was linked to a violent political feud between the state's governor and his deputy. Last week, an Osun state legislator, Odunayo Olagbaju, was bludgeoned to death outside his home in the city of Ife, provoking riots in the city. Five people were reported killed. Olagbaju had been a supporter of Osun Deputy Gov. Iyiola Omisore. A few days ago, Ige reportedly escaped a mob attack in Ife in which his hat was knocked off and his glasses broken. Ige had apparently backed Osun State Gov. Bamidele Adebisi Akande, ThisDay said. Ige was the founder of one of Nigeria's three registered political parties, the Alliance for Democracy. Just weeks ago, he was chosen to serve in 2002 on the prestigious U.N. international law commission. Obasanjo quickly recruited Ige into his government following 1999 elections that ended military rule, even though the two had campaigned for opposing parties. Like Obasanjo, Ige had spent time in prison under the junta and was a Yoruba, the predominant ethnic group in Nigeria's southwest. Ige led the World Council of Churches' anti-racism campaign in the early 1970s and later became governor of Oyo State during Nigeria's previous period of civilian rule, 1979-83. He was generally well-liked by many of his fellow Yorubas but distrusted by some northerners for the years he spent campaigning against the northern-dominated military. As justice minister, he also drew criticism from some northern Muslims for statements against moves by several states to implement Islamic law. Ige also gained the wrath of state governments in the Niger Delta, where he was seen as responsible for a ruling that restricts the states' earnings from offshore oil drilling.

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Illusional delusions
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

>>The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined by the state, from the equation. Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is not a solution. This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof watermarks. Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in any form or shape. Thinking aloud ... this may be silly: Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange, maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business for reputation building. Again, hardly new. This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain much from it anyway. Going through a series of intermediaries to buy some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the state's sight. In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad. So, tell me, is this silly ?<< Yes,sadly,because your talking about barter(BUMs or Barter Unit of Money)These would be assessed as dollars,pounds,francs,marks etc for the purposes of taxation. Their very existence would be portrayed in court as evidence of malfeasance,much like the AP essay was in the drey..bell case. As soon as the state feels sufficiently threatened, as it probably will very shortly, it'll crackdown,much the same as its doing now to hawala.So you need mass civil disobedience to bring down the shared hallucination that we somehow need a state to redistribute in an equitable and sustainable way.Revolution in short.Failing that you need APster to take on the tax collectors and the agents investigating their disappearance.Again revolution follows on quickly.The state doesn't like its servants getting the chop.Small business will and does suffer under the iron heel of the state.Crypto-anarchy based on bomb-proof remailers,APster and BUMs is desirable and close through both technical and political advances.The state should suffer,big business should suffer.Under the present blinkered vision of capitalist crypto-anarchy they have little to fear. "Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system, through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times. When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs." Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold

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Everyone a Bank.
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/#free_banking Better looking than Faustines fat apologist for the NWO of corporate fascism.Also some interesting reading for e-cash minded C/punks.Reminded me of a bank that started soon after the Oklahoma land rush with a tent and shingle.Extract... "The claim that monetary systems can function smoothly in the absence of government regulations sometimes raises the question, Why do governments intervene in money? Although economic misunderstanding and pressure from special interests within the banking industry account for many observed forms of intervention, Lawrence White and I suggest, in our forthcoming Economic Inquiry paper, "A Fiscal Theory of Government's Role in Money," that government intervention in the money industry has largely been a result of fiscal pressures to extract revenue from money holders. " They cant tax the web so I guess crypto-anarchy is not a question of if,now,but when.BUMs on seats. Throughout the Western world, December 24 -- January 1, "THE HOLIDAYS," is a period of continuous merrymaking & zerowork.

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Hi there.
by Patricia de Leon 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

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