November 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: The Crypto Winter
by Faustine 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Faustine wrote: >> Jim wrote: >> >> >C-A-C-L's would let people die from thirst before interfering in a 'free >> >market'. Others would say screw the market and give that man a drink. >> >> >> I'd give that man a drink out of my last canteen--but I sure as hell wouldn't >> force anyone else to. >Then you have missed a fundamental aspect of human society and the >responbility (shades of Hayek) that goes along with it. >Hayek, von Mises, etc. would be disappointed. In a survival situation, nobody gives a crap about "human society", it's either a matter of conscience or it isn't. Actually if I were in that situation, I'd probably try to steal some of the water for him. But I wouldn't try to pretty up my stealing with some sanctimonious sermon about needs and obligations to the guy I have at the other end of my gun. Which what it all comes down to in the end. But if he blows me away with his twelve gauge? Well, it's his water. Should have been a little smarter. All the laws in the world will never be able to legislate away the basic fact that the strong and smart disregard and/or prey on the weak and stupid. Read the front page of any newspaper for ample proof of what people are like without the comfortable fiction of societal order. If you had ever lived on the street you would understand this firsthand. Preach on... ~Faustine. *** The right to be let alone is indeed the beginning of all freedoms. - --William O. Douglas, Associate Justice, US Supreme Court -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPsdk version 1.7.1 (C) 1997-1999 Network Associates, Inc. and its affiliated companies. (Diffie-Helman/DSS-only version) iQA/AwUBO/q5uPg5Tuca7bfvEQJr9QCgmbvsa2GBik39XEz1sOESV/lZBwUAn1gs 3VXr+q5x/cNnWO+c0rK8g9R9 =QA+Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: HDCP break and DMCA
by Anonymous 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

David Wagner writes: > Given this risk, I've decided I cannot afford to continue to work in the > area of copy protection as long as the uncertainty remains. And how in > good conscience can I advise students working with me to work in this > troubled area? I can't. It's understandable that you would be concerned about the DMCA. Niels Ferguson raised the same issues when he decided not to publish. Why, then, did you go ahead with publication? This is the part which is hard to understand. Niels decided not to publish, you and your co-authors apparently came to the opposite conclusion. Rhetorically you are saying the same things as him, but your actions are different. It would be interesting to hear more about how you reconcile the decision to publish this result with the belief that the DMCA makes publication in this field too risky.

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Re: Antivirus software will ignore FBI spyware: solutions
by Declan McCullagh 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 01:38:04PM -0800, Meyer Wolfsheim wrote: > According to a rebutal posted to Declan's list, McAfee.com (not the same > as McAfee) is claiming that neither it nor Network Associates is assisting > the FBI. I admit I'm not familiar with the details of the corporate structure, but my understanding is that McAfee is the anti-virus arm of Network Associates. Another NAI appendage is McAfee.com, which is majority- owned by NAI. So you're right, not precisely the same, but they're close enough for this purpose: I got a near-word-for-word identical denial from NAI, below. -Declan ---

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PROVEN Work at Home System that Generates FREE LEADS!
by normie_walcott 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

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Re: Pricing Mojo, Integrating PGP, TAZ, and D.C. Cypherpunks
by Anonymous 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

Some thoughts on digital cash. First, using anonymous cash to purchase physical goods online means giving up much of the benefit from the anonymity. If you have to give a delivery address, they obviously know who you are. It's still slightly better than using your Visa card because only the seller learns your address rather than a centralized agency that knows all of your purchases. But it's hardly worth it. Second, using digital cash for purchases in the real world (grocery stores etc) is pretty much impossible today and relatively pointless anyway since physical cash exists. There might be some slight advantages in terms of not having to carry cash, resistance to theft, etc., but from the privacy perspective, things are about as good as they are going to get in the physical world. It's only going to go downhill from here. It may not be as bad as Scott "Get Over It" McNealy claims but realistically the use of surveillance cameras and face recognition systems is going to increase. Third, this leaves the use of digital cash to purchase information goods and services online. The problem is, few companies have succeeded so far in selling information goods online, and the problems have nothing to do with the payment system or privacy issues. With self-contained products like music and software, piracy is rampant. There are some service businesses which are producing and selling information successfully, but usually they are in the B2B market where privacy is less of an issue. Fourth, the significant exception is of course pornography, and we've had debates about whether it would make sense to create a privacy-protecting electronic payment system that catered to the porn market. It's profitable, it's information, and there are significant privacy considerations for some customers. Unfortunately the greatest sensitivity to privacy comes with illegal products like child pornography. And the Reedy case has to be a significant cautionary tale. Thomas Reedy was proprietor of an age verification service which had a couple of overseas child pornographers among its customers; he ended up with life imprisonment for what was essentially a payment collection service. Any digital cash system for the porn market would therefore have to screen its clients (the sellers) very closely. It's the buyers to whom you are selling privacy, not the sellers, so this is not inconsistent with the business model. But it could be expensive. And by eliminating illegal porn you would be turning away much of your potential business, leading to a constant temptation to cross the line as Reedy did. Can we identify other markets, other applications where cash or cash-like technology can be useful? MojoNation is a good example. Their mojo is intended to be a cash substitute to optimize load balancing and data distribution. Unfortunately the MN network lacks compelling content and the economy is still crude. But the idea is sound; P2P networks which reward providers of information should flourish. The slashdot quota system is another example. Also, various "warez" sites work on an exchange basis, where people get credit for uploading files which gives them authorization to download. Imagine if all these systems could be served by a single virtual currency, where resources and work donated in one forum earned points which would entitle you to privileges in another. Eric Hughes proposed something similar back in the days of the text-based MUD and MOO online games, so that you could transfer quota from one system to another. Or consider the example recently where several people expressed interest in having someone go back to the early cypherpunk archives and select interesting threads. What if each of us had some virtual cash we could transfer to whomever did the work. The point is that there is a possibility today for an online market in informal, peer to peer style information services. There is work to be done, services to provide which remain entirely in the virtual world. If you could be rewarded for work you do online with "cash" that would allow you to request similar services from others, the monetary system can get off the ground. This might be a more promising start for a virtual currency than attempts to tie it immediately to dollars.

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Re: mapping in the sierras and places west
by Greg Broiles 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

At 07:50 AM 11/12/2001 -0800, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >But you missed the mil 4-engine cargo-type plane towing a wire held >in a trailing Y config by two mil copters flying in tight formation >behind it, >circling SF. Yes, I wouldn't have believed that was possible without >having seen it. > >Maybe they were mapping too. They overflew San Jose and Santa Clara, too, headed westbound. What would a trailing wire like that measure or receive? My limited understanding of RF says it'd be good for picking up very low frequency emissions or transmissions - but I don't know of any sources of those that I'd expect to be of interest, other than those used by US subs and I'm sure they have better ways to pick those up. I'd have expected the interesting intel to be up at the other end of the RF spectrum, in the 800-2400 Mhz range with cell phones, cordless phones, pagers, 802.11b, etc. Any ideas? -- Greg Broiles -- gbroiles(a)parrhesia.com -- PGP 0x26E4488c or 0x94245961 5000 dead in NYC? National tragedy. 1000 detained incommunicado without trial, expanded surveillance? National disgrace.

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Pay to Play in Information Markets
by Nomen Nescio 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

George MW writes: > I played around with MN for a while, one of the things that > disapointed me was that you tend to lose mojo just by > running the client. It seemed to me that the idea that > everything you do should involve a cost one way or another > was a mistake, it seemed to me that the housekeeping/say > hello kind of stuff shuld be free. Publishing also, since 1) > there's no guarentee that the site you publish blocks to > will keep them for any nonzero length of time and 2) > Theoretically the people you publish to will expect to make their > "profit" from other people requesting those blocks. This has been a long debate among hard-core capitalist types who want to see everything have a price. In a voluntary system for exchanging and publishing information, who should pay and who should be paid? Of course the easy answer is that the market will decide. But when you're trying to design the mechanisms then you have to anticipate the market's needs. You have to predict what the market will decide. Unfortunately, the realistic answer seems to be that many possible patterns of payment will be desired by the market. In some cases providers of data will pay others to read it: advertising, political or persuasive arguments, reputation-building essays. In other cases people who want the data will pay those who provide it: music and other arts, entertaining and informative works. MN identifies three roles: author, consumer, and publisher (they don't necessarily use these names). The author creates the data (or supplies data authored by someone else). The publisher provides the resources to make it available: disk space, network access. The consumer downloads the data and uses it. In some cases the author and publisher may be the same. It seems reasonable that the consumer would pay the publisher for most data. Presuming that the consumer is going to the trouble of downloading the data, he must want it and so he will be willing to pay for it. There may be some examples as noted above where the author wants to subsidize the consumer's access. In the MN model, the consumer pays the publisher, and the author pays the publisher as well. This latter aspect is the most controversial. Why should an author pay to get his data distributed? Well, as noted above there are some cases where it makes sense, but in those cases the author also wants to encourage consumers to download his work. Just putting it on servers is not enough. MN does not provide for a subsidy or payment to downloaders. Ideally the publisher should be able to pay the author for the work. This corresponds most closely to the traditional publishing model. Talented authors get paid by their publishers, who then receive payment themselves by consumers. For this to work though the publisher must be able to make judgements about which authors are talented. In the traditional publishing world this is handled by reputation and human judgement. It might be possible to automate this to a considerable extent using cryptographic reputations, but it is a new area that would need much infrastructure development. A mailing list such as this one is a microcosm of an information exchange, one where no payment is possible. Each person who posts puts some effort into creating his message (some more than others). Some people's messages are worth reading and subscribers might even be willing to pay to get them. Others serve more to gratify the ego of the writer and he might have to pay to get his contributions read. Imagine a cash-based mailing list (perhaps using play money). Each contributer would either pay or get paid for his submissions, depending on his current reputation. Subscribers would have a quantity of cash flow that they could funnel towards the reputation of the authors they enjoyed the most. Slashdot's karma system is similar to this and it does a pretty good job of separating the quality from the crap, although there are complaints that it promotes groupthink. A system based more openly on cash payments could be a model for future information markets.

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URGENT PROPOSAL
by Sule Adamu 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

FROM THE OFFICE OF ENGR.SULE ADAMU. FEDERAL MINISTRY OF WORKS AND HOUSING FEDERAL SECRETARIAT OFFICE COMPLEX FALOMO, IKOYO-LAGOS. . Dear Friend, INVESTMENT AND BUSINESS PROPOSAL First, I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction, this is by virtue of it's nature as being utterly confidential and top secret as you were introduced to me in confidence through the Nigeria Chamber of Commerce and Industries Foreign Trade Division. We are top officials from the Federal Ministry of Works and Housing, (FMW&H), Federal Ministry of Finance and the Presidency, making up the Contract Review Panel(CRP) set up by the Federal Government of Nigeria to review contracts awarded by the past military administration. In the course of our work on the CRP, we discovered this fund which resulted from grossly over - invoiced contracts which were executed for the FMW&H during the last administration.The companies that executed the contracts have been duly paid and the contracts commissioned leaving the sum of US$21.4 Million floating in the escrow account of the Central Bank of Nigeria ready for payment. I have therefore been mandated as a matter of trust by my colleagues in the panel to look for an overseas partner to whom we could transfer the sum of US$21.4 Million legally subcontracting the entitlement to your company. This is bearing in mind that our civil service code of conduct forbids us from owning foreign companies or operating foreign accounts while in government service, hence the need for an overseas partner. We have agreed that the funds will be shared thus after it has been paid into your account. (1) 30% of the money will go to you for acting as the beneficiary of the fund. (2) 10% has been set aside as an abstract projection for reimbursement to both parties for incidental expences that may be incurred in the course of the transaction. (3) 60% to us the government officials (with which we intend to commence an importation business in conjunction with you) All logistics are in place and all modalities worked out for the smooth conclusion of the transaction within ten to fourteen days of commencement after receipt of the following information; your company name, address, company's details & activities, telephone & fax numbers. These information will enable us make the applications and lodge claims to the concerned ministries & agencies in favour of your company and it is pertinent to state here that this transaction is entirely based on trust as the solar bank draft or certified cheque drawable in any of the Central Bank of Nigeria correspondent bankers around the world is going to be made in your name. Please acknowledge the reciept of this letter using the above email address to reply me. Yours faithfully, Engr.Sule Adamu. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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URGENT PROPOSAL
by Sule Adamu 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

FROM THE OFFICE OF ENGR.SULE ADAMU. FEDERAL MINISTRY OF WORKS AND HOUSING FEDERAL SECRETARIAT OFFICE COMPLEX FALOMO, IKOYO-LAGOS. . Dear Friend, INVESTMENT AND BUSINESS PROPOSAL First, I must solicit your strictest confidence in this transaction, this is by virtue of it's nature as being utterly confidential and top secret as you were introduced to me in confidence through the Nigeria Chamber of Commerce and Industries Foreign Trade Division. We are top officials from the Federal Ministry of Works and Housing, (FMW&H), Federal Ministry of Finance and the Presidency, making up the Contract Review Panel(CRP) set up by the Federal Government of Nigeria to review contracts awarded by the past military administration. In the course of our work on the CRP, we discovered this fund which resulted from grossly over - invoiced contracts which were executed for the FMW&H during the last administration.The companies that executed the contracts have been duly paid and the contracts commissioned leaving the sum of US$21.4 Million floating in the escrow account of the Central Bank of Nigeria ready for payment. I have therefore been mandated as a matter of trust by my colleagues in the panel to look for an overseas partner to whom we could transfer the sum of US$21.4 Million legally subcontracting the entitlement to your company. This is bearing in mind that our civil service code of conduct forbids us from owning foreign companies or operating foreign accounts while in government service, hence the need for an overseas partner. We have agreed that the funds will be shared thus after it has been paid into your account. (1) 30% of the money will go to you for acting as the beneficiary of the fund. (2) 10% has been set aside as an abstract projection for reimbursement to both parties for incidental expences that may be incurred in the course of the transaction. (3) 60% to us the government officials (with which we intend to commence an importation business in conjunction with you) All logistics are in place and all modalities worked out for the smooth conclusion of the transaction within ten to fourteen days of commencement after receipt of the following information; your company name, address, company's details & activities, telephone & fax numbers. These information will enable us make the applications and lodge claims to the concerned ministries & agencies in favour of your company and it is pertinent to state here that this transaction is entirely based on trust as the solar bank draft or certified cheque drawable in any of the Central Bank of Nigeria correspondent bankers around the world is going to be made in your name. Please acknowledge the reciept of this letter using the above email address to reply me. Yours faithfully, Engr.Sule Adamu. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

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RE: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier
by Lucky Green 26 Nov '01

26 Nov '01

[Redundant/inappropriate lists elided]. The page at Amazon. COM claims that the book in question will ship in December of this year. I seem to recall having read announcements in years past that the book would ship in the respective years. Methinks that a mere claim of a future ship date in 2001 may be considered insufficient proof that the condition of the wager has been met by at least one of the parties to the wager. Just my $0.02, --Lucky, who will order the book once it ships. Which unfortunately has yet to come to pass. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-coderpunks(a)toad.com > [mailto:owner-coderpunks@toad.com] On Behalf Of R. A. Hettinga > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:18 AM > To: cryptography(a)wasabisystems.com; coderpunks(a)toad.com; > dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu; e$(a)vmeng.com; mac-crypto(a)vmeng.com; Digital > Bearer Settlement List > Subject: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier > > > > --- begin forwarded text > > > Status: U > Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:45:04 -0500 > To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com > From: Matthew Gaylor <freematt(a)coil.com> > Subject: Order Now: True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace > Frontier > Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)lne.com > > [Note from Matt: I made a small wager in palladium that Vinge's True > Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier would be > available to order prior to Jan. 1, 2002 with a well known > Cypherpunk. And I > won. Acct# 101893.] > > > At 3:03 AM -0700 8/13/01, Well known Cypherpunk wrote: > >Subject: Re: BTW- I'll bet you... > > > >OK - Done deal, if you'll accept the modification that it be > orderable > >and shippable by Amazon or other on-line bookstore within a > week after > >that. > > <http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312862075/ref=pd_bxgy_text_1/ 103-1236763-4454202> True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Frontier by Vernor Vinge, James Frenkel (Editor) List Price: $14.95 Our Price: $11.96 You Save: $2.99 (20%) This item will be published in December 2001. You may order it now and we will ship it to you when it arrives. See larger photo This item qualifies for free shipping on orders over $99! Click for details Great Buy Buy True Names: And the Opening of the Cyberspace Fron... with The Collected Stories of Vernor Vinge today! Total List Price: $42.90 Buy Together Today: $31.52 You Save: $11.38 Paperback - 384 pages (December 2001) Tor Books; ISBN: 0312862075 Amazon.com Sales Rank: 28,271 ************************************************************************ ** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt(a)coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ ************************************************************************ ** --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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