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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Phil Hallam-Baker's rejoinder to Paul Bradley' defense of AP: Virtually all of Phil's charges against AP apply equally well to state-sponsored killing in the natonal interest, including that arranged by highly educated, cultured, philosophical, nuclear physicists and electrical engineers. That's the issue. Who gets to decide who lives and who dies, and how close the killer is to the slaughter, unprotected by law, by public consensus, by popular will, by apologetics for the security of national interest. Jim Bell is hardly the first to articulate this challenge to the grand tradition of the majestic state and its precursors -- the king, the bandit, the tribal bully, the strong -- all sanctioned beasts taking what their trainers want by force, while being excused and celebrated by fey intellectuals and balladeers of all craven submissive dress. Rushdie, hmm. Phil what mind-swill you elbow-tipping? Is Rushie not closer to Jim Bell than he is to you in challenging the arrogant mullahs of highly sophisticated armed thuggery. Who you shillinging for these days, Crispin's bandits of the NLs?

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Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
by Mid West Electronics 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timothy C. May <tcmay(a)got.net> wrote in article <5i3tpu$86h(a)life.ai.mit.edu>... > At 1:51 PM -0600 4/4/97, null(a)myemail.net wrote: > > > Horseshit. Anybody here ever hear of the Boston Tea Party? How > >about the American Revolution? War of Independece? French Revolution? > > You know, people who said "Fuck this shit, I've had enough." People > >who acted in concert to fight injustice and oppression. If you care to read the history of the times from unbiased sources you will find that the Boston patriots main gripe with Britain was not the tax on tea but the insistence of the British authorities on negotiating with the Sioux nation amongst others. It was the fear that the British would sign a peace treaty with the Indians recognising them as a sovereign nation that was the spark to the flame. Try reading "Lies my teacher told me" sometime. Given that the American revolution institutionalised slavery and lead to the theft of Indian land, and the French revolution the murder of about quarter of a million people they cannot be said to be entirely laudatory events. The national myths of the countries concerned nothwithstanding. People are not fit judges of their own cause. The civil war was started by the South who believed that the North might infringe their "right" to own others as property. > Note that I've never called for a witch hunt, nor have I called for his > posts to be censored out of the list. I chose a long time ago to filter > Jim's stuff into my appropriate folder for such stuff, and occasionally > took him out of the filter when he seemed (from occasional checks on what I > was filtering), to be discussing things other than his "Klaatu Narada > Nictoo" (or whatever) Final Solution. Same for me. I objected to Bell's AP proposal but not to his _right_ to post it. It was the tedious length at which he bored the rest of us with it that I objected to. Last I heard the Feds were concerned that he might have been putting AP into effect. Collecting the names and addresses of IRS officials, setting up a kangeroo court to try them, sending them demands, those sound like actions Bell would have serious difficulty in doing without giving someone reasonable cause to believe they were being targetted for murder. Phill

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RE: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for >a New World Order, and wrote: Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order". ... They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan. The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam. Must be in deep, deep cover. >> I have degrees in Nuclear Physics, Electronic Engineering, I have >> been offered a contract for my book on the philosophy of >> communication. > ...so the rest of us are just dirt under your feet? I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed. >> I don't believe that people >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not >our own? Or not fight at all? I think that before you murder someone because you think they are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial arbitrator. Phill

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The Laird
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > > >paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk pissed off Hallam-Baker to the > >extent that gave up all pretense hiding his support for > >a New World Order, and wrote: > > Yeah, like I wrote in "The Laird of the new world order". > ... > They said they worked for freedom but they had another plan. > The only new world order is, obey your Uncle Sam. I would like to see the complete work, if you have it available online. > Must be in deep, deep cover. I'm a conspiracy theorist. Any particular Crayola colour you would like me to use to draw the links between yourself and the Cabal? > I was pointing out that the attempt to claim that the rest of > us poor slobs didn't see Jim Bell as a shining Messiah was > not because we were too stupid to understand him as claimed. I once recorded a tune called, "He used to take acid, and now he's found God, but he's still got that look in his eye." I can't deny that Jim Bell seems to have "that look" in his eye. > >> I don't believe that people > >> are fit judges of their own cause as Bell and you do. > > > So we should only fight for other people's causes, and not > >our own? Or not fight at all? > > I think that before you murder someone because you think they > are wrong you need to at the very least put the matter to an impartial > arbitrator. I believe that the AP system pretty much spreads out the "arbitration" in much the same manner that the electoral system does. To me, it is similar to the inter-family dynamics that take place in Dr. Kevorkian's work, only on a more pervasive scale. I have always seen Jim Bell's work as a theoretical exercise that deserved a more serious analysis than he, himself, gave it. It pushed the envelope of issues that need to be dealt with, and did so in a manner that went beyond seemingly mundane matters wherein one could easily dismiss the long-term consequences of the train of logic involved. An analogy might be made to those who dismiss a little ass- grabbing as inconsequential when compared to rape, as opposed to those who view it as a precursor to rape. Despite my sometimes caustic, irreverent demeanor, I enjoy your posts, as they show a thoughtfulness which goes beyond some of the "Oh yeah! Sez who! Yo' mamma!" threads that sometimes prevail on various lists. So, don't change on my account, I hate you just the way you are. (Please note my aversion to adding little 'happy faces' to my posts. Humor be humor.) -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 16:36:54 -0800 > From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> > Subject: Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats > of people through AP--I don't find it at all surprising that an > investigation, involving search warrants, happened. > > Whether he gets charged, let alone convicted, and his conviction is upheld, > is a different set of issues. I have a problem with this process, it denies due process to the accussed. This should be the issue of concern with Jim Bell, mainly the fact that his property was taken on a warrant issued on oath of probable cause. If you have enough evidence ("I think he is dangerous judge" is not evidence except to a fool) to produce a search warrant then you should have to explain the results of that warrant to a judge and that means the accussed has a right to be there and have a say. Since his property was taken for public use, protection of public officials, then those agencies should pay him for the property and the relative worth of the work on it OR do what Constitutionaly is correct. This is mainly at the point of delivering the search warrant a notice of appearance before a court should be presented to answer those charges. He has a right to face his accusers FROM THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE CASE as well as legal council by public appointment if required. Under the current conditions Jim Bell is being forced to testify against himself (some argue that this is not so, if that is true why then are we 'secure in our property and papers'?) and has been denied the right to legal council, as well as facing his accusers in a court. If this sort of check and balance is not in place then we get law enforcement confiscating property without charges being filed and hence no legal issues for the accussed to defend. This could be used to shutdown a newspaper (for example) because of articles that it printed. It nearly put Steve Jackson out of business. This is what you should be pissed off about. Jim Bell, as we all do, carry our own crosses. The issue is not whether Jim Bell committed a crime but rather did the law enforcement agencies follow the Constitution they swore to uphold. Let's see, I believe the courts say that a 72 hour stay in jail without charges being filed is the limit for habeas corpus. How about the accussed has to appear before the judge along with the police within 72 hours. At that point charges could be filed, charges dropped, payment for property, or return of property could be handled. If the defendant doesn't appear then a bench warrant can be issued on the premise that an attempt to flea is in process. If the police don't show or can't produce a good enough argument the charges get dropped and property returned along with reimbursment for any damages to the property or losses incurred by its confiscation (the money should come from the polic budget). If the police refuse to act then a Writ of Habeas Corpus could be issues demanding the return of the property to the possession of the court or face criminal action. Police in a democracy should be conservative in action. Bet you EFF don't do this one for free. "Oh my god, an ex-drug dealer..." instead of "Oh my god, a poor game publisher...". Fucking hypocrites. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Bell's Phone Number
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Correction for Jim Bell's telephone number: 1-360-696-3911 It's available via Information, assisted by the original story: "James D. Bell, who reportedly lives with his elderly parents at the home at 7214 Corregidor Road Vancouver, WA."

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NDA98 URL
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The correct URL for the National Defense Authorization for FY1998 is: http://jya.com/nda98.htm (176K)

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Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain... Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park..... Corection!
by mf＠mediafilter.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sorry if you received this twice! the link to the realaudio has been corrected! Disneyfication, Privatization of the Public Domain... Turn the Planet into a Strip-Mall and Theme Park..... Hear the realaudio netcast of Infinity Factory Hosted by Richard Metzger of Disinfo.com talking with Paul Garrin about name.space and the future of the net. originally netcast live on May 11, 1997. (this is a realaudio link, so be prepared...) http://www.pseudo.com/netcast/shows/infinity/archives/infinityMay11_1997_084 8pm.ram name.space: http://name.space.xs2.net DisInfo: http://www.disinfo.com

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Re: The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim may wrote: >[much over-the-top exaggeration of the eevull you-ess gubmint > deleted, then he gets personal:] > I noticed with interest this morning that Peter Trei had an interesting > thought experiment for implementing a variant of assassination politics. > Interesting because not much more than a week or two ago Peter was making > the point that I seemed to have gone off the deep end, or at least was no > longer writing "thoughtful" essays and/or was not focussing on what he > wanted to read about (a hopeless task, of course, to tune one's writings to > the interests of others). > Peter has now thrown in with the "let's see how AP might work." His > variant, "Who do we want to see hit with a bus?," is of course essentially > identical to AP. No, it is not. The above paragraph totally misconstrues what I posted, and I am (again) putting it into the record with this post that I oppose all forms of premeditated killing. What I posted was an idea for a POLL, nothing more. There was no suggestion that of any kind of action or incentive - no advocacy of murder, no anonymous cash, no payoffs, nothing. This is NOT 'implementing a variant of assassination politics', and I take strong exception to your implication that I would support such a thing. I really hate it when you misread, misconstrue, and misquote other people. You really seem to have a very tenuous love of truth and accuracy when falsehood will serve your purpose better (if you think that sounds like the tactics of a certain large organization you dislike, you're right.) Let's take just one paragraph from your latest screed. Can you back up all or even most of the points in it? I don't think so. You wrote: >The United States of America is the world's leading terrorist state. Matter of opinion. I suspect that Libya, Iraq, and Iran are better candidates. If you include internal terrorism, add China, North Korea, and many others ahead of the US. >From mining harbors in countries with democratically elected >governments... I've got only a quibble with this one. We did mine Managua, ie one harbor in one country. While this was clearly unacceptable behaviour, it does demonstrate your tendency to play fast and loose with numbers. >...to financing the blowing up of airliners by dissident >groups Really? Which ones? Be specific. Which airlines, which flights? What were the circumstances in each case? You're using plurals again, so you'd better have multiple instances. >...to assassinating dozens of leaders of countries the USA wished >to shape in different directions, the USA is Terror State Numero Uno. Dozens? As in 12+? Again, which ones? When? Any since the (Carter?) exec order forbidding attacks against heads of state? Tim, can you back up your words with facts, or are your recent posts "... full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."? There are sufficient *real* problems with US policy that your exaggerations are counter-productive. Peter Trei Disclaimer: My posts represent my own opinions, no one elses.

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