- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: (Your Comment Here)
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 07:41 AM 1/5/97 +0000, attila wrote: > you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally > over-biased opinions, but... maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems > to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has > turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene. You got to be kidding. Tim is not the problem on this list. As any long time reader of this list surely knows, I do not always agree with Tim. But it is Tim who writes the well thought out essays, and it are Vulis and Aga who post day after day that "John Gilmore is a cock sucking faggot", "Queers must be banned from the Internet" and "Timmy is a convicted child molester that likes to fuck little children up the ass". Let's be clear about this: Tim May is a major asset to this list. Vulis and Aga are slime. [Note, I am unlikely to read any replies to this post since I filter on Vulis and similar vermin in the headers _and_ body text.] -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
by azur＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Rich, Thanks for your passionate and intelligent response. Before I attempt to address some of your objections to the passages Mr. Bork's book, let me say that while I agree with some of his observations I find his objections and perscriptions (including a legislative check on Supreme Court decisions) too little too late. BTW, the lead in and Bork material was taken from an article on alt.libertian (i.e., not my words or sentiment). >From the book's liner notes: The root of our decline, Bork argues, is the rise of modern liberalism, which stresses the dual forces of radical egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather than opportunities) and radical individualism (the drastic reduction of the limits of personal gratification). The roots of modern liberalism are deeply embedded in the past two and a half centuries-and perhaps-arise from the very nature of Western civilization itself. [snip] >> Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking >> classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics >> in bilingual schools. > >No evidence for this assertion exists. See, generally, "The Failure of Bilingual Education," ed. Jorge Amselle (Washington, D.C.: Center for Equal Opportunities, 1996). > >> That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only >> the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as >> others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility >> to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions >> and educational bureaucrats. > >No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic >children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small >but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent >immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd >jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most >visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English. >Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid. > >> Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil- >> dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self- >> esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings >> of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi- >> nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con- >> sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms >> and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein >> writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white, >> Anglo cultural domination." > >Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man >he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a >friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself. See Richard Berstein, "Dictatorship of the Virtue: Multiculturalism and the Battle for America's Future," (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994), p. 244. The interior quotation is from Jim Cummins, "Empowering Minority Students," California Association for Bilingual Education, Sacramento, 1989, p. ix. [snip] > >> Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society >> has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu- >> tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to >> amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All >> that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the >> repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language >> ballots. > >You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before >they know about it. > >> once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their >> children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition >> to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American >> elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture >> of the West and wishing to weaken it. > >Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's >in it for them? Ah, a very good question, and one which Bork spends a considerable time upon. In the short, they are the radicals of the '60s who have taken over or heavily modified the cultural institutions they once sought to destroy (e.g., Clinton, many intellectuals, the media (esp. Hollywood), university faculties, etc.). Special attention is given the Supreme Court (although obviously they are older than the '60s radicals) and its misguided and, in his opinion, unconstitutional basis supporting many liberal decisions (e.g., abortion and affirmative action) in the past 20 or so years. > >> In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New >> York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto >> kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of >> an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized >> the culture and institutions of the United States and the European >> American world for centuries." All young people were being >> "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul- >> ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the >> multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives' >> emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement >> that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ." > >The interesting thing about this attack is that you need to accept >the Task Force's mode of analysis in order to accept Bernstein's >conclusion. What if you don't? What if you say that this "European >culture and its derivatives" thing is bullshit, all we really have is >modern culture, and be done with it? Then Bernstein's statement and >the Task Force's statments are equally nonsensical. True, but its not clear what "modern culture" is, as its constantly evolving. As you correctly point out, and Bork discusses elsewhere, there is no single "Eurpoean" culture. However, no society has prospered by failing to formally educate its youth in its cultural basis. Without substantial cultural unity a fractured and contentious society is a likely result. In Federalist No. 2, Publius (John Jay) wrote: Providence has been pleased to give this one connected coun- try, to one united people, a people decended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same reli- gion, attached to the same princinple of government, very simi- lar in their manners and customs... This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of bretheren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous and alien sovereignties. Despite the fact that we have increasingly become a hetrogeneous society, our culture and law is clearly Protestent English-based. It was not European or, as we now say, Eurocenteric. -- Steve

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Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
by wireinfo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM, dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com writes: >"Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: >> Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I >> understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may >> nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we >> mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts. >> And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious >> problem.... >> >> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for >> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no >> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed), >> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc. >> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through >> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it. ah, yes: "good" becomes so well-defined, as the "banyard insults" shoe drops. a lie, my grandmother used to tell me, is halfway around the world before the truth has even got its boots on. >Timmy seems to be VERY bothered by those anonymous posts and would >surely like them to stop - perfectly illustrating why the "cypher punks" >are enemies of free speech. Timmy can killfile anything he doesn't like, >but he wants to prevent everyone else from seeing whatever information >Timmy doesn't want to be disseminated. > >You lose, Timmy. The truth wants to be free. or somewhere around $19.95 a month, anyway. -just another internet MessAge Processor

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The Problems are Gay
by aga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Most of the time, the problems are Gay... On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > >From csm-tkt(a)support.psi.com Thu Jan 2 15:36:04 1997 > Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) > via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jan 97 16:36:55 EST > for system > Received: from support.psi.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; > id AA06690 for postmaster; Thu, 2 Jan 97 15:36:04 -0500 > Received: by support.psi.com (8.6.12/PSI) > id PAA23158; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500 > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500 > Message-Id: <199701022036.PAA23158(a)support.psi.com> > From: Customer Support Mgmt Tickets <csm-tkt(a)support.psi.com> > To: postmaster(a)dm.com > Cc: abuse(a)psi.com > Subject: csm-00974 (ticket update) dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help? > > Ticket #csm-00974 01/02/97-15:35:37 mikea SUBJECT: dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help? > Posted by: Michael Abelson > ---------- > > > This is to inform you that we have received complaints > about traffic apparently originating in your domain. These > messages are unwelcome intrusions that violate unwritten rules > of the Internet, and are strongly resented. Please confirm > that you are aware of these complaints and are taking measures > to stop this practice. I have attached a portion of a complaint > for your information. > > Thanks for your help on this issue. > > Sincerely, > > PSINet Customer Support > > > > >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats. > >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco. > > > > >Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls plugs and tries to > >silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay. In particular, King John Lack-Clue ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I rest my case. > >Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an > >effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch. > > > > >

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High-tech tracking by police raises legal outcry
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From The Orange County Register, Front Page, Sunday 1-5-97 Police across the country secretly tail hundres of people each year by attaching high-tech transmitters to suspects' cars and tracking them on squadroom computer screens. Detectives, federal agents and prosecutors routinely conceal use of the technology from defendants, their lawyers and the public, an investigation by The Orange County Register has found. Autorities in Orange County often plant the devices on cars without getting a warrant from a judge. ... The technology, marketed by a company called Teletrac, is simple: A tramsmitter sends a radio signal to a computer, which pinpoints the car's street location. Police with the proper software can follow a transimitter-equipped vehicle in real time as it moves across a street map on a computer screen. ... "Is there any expectation of privacy on the whereabouts of a car on a public street? I suggest there isn't," said [Jeffrey] Ferguson, president of the county's narcotics officer's association. "I've told them they don't need a warrant unless they intend to enter a car." ... The system automatically records the time, date, location and duration of the car's stops. The system could tell police, for example, that the suspect's car stopped on Main Street between 4th and 5th streest for about an hour on Jan. 5. The records help police focus their investigation on places the suspects visits. ------- Obviously, several list members were wrong. Travel GAK is not coming; It is already here. <CENTER>BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING</CENTER>

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Re: Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:39 PM 1/5/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair >but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as >flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing >Cypherpunks' mission. I disagree. If you want "straight crypto", subscribe to Coderpunks. This list is first and foremost a political list. Yes, I said it. Cypherpunks is a political list. If it was just a technical list, it would have never become as popular as it did. Nor would it have helped to create such a strong sense of community amongst many of its long time subscribers. As to firearms: Crypto is a weapon. There are very good reasons why governments determined to overstep their bounds are working so hard to restrict access to both crypto and firearms. You can't have one without the other. At least not for long. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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RE: C'punks "moderation" experiment
by Robert Barnes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dale Thorn wrote: >>Vin McLellan wrote: >>> Thank you. I look forward to more of the best of C'punks, without >>> having the hassle of continually weeding out the vapid bullshit. >>> Apparently because of your philosophical orientation, you have stayed open >>> -- and kept the List open -- to this pattern of eggregious harassment far >>> longer than I would have thought possible. I applaud your patience, but >>> for myself -- I have had more than enough! >> >>Well, Vin, without commenting on your plug for censorship, I can only >>say that I hope you are *very* fond of Sandy Sandfort, since he becomes >>YOUR LORD GOD for cypherpunks list purposes. >> >>How many other gods do you have, Vin (if that's your real name, Vin)? > My understanding was that there would probably be more than one moderator, also as Sandy's moderation decisions will be open to scrutiny by interested members of the list I cannot see the list membership accepting unsuitable moderation decisions, either by Sandy or anyone else. This list has a purpose, lets get back to it. > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Robert Barnes Phone: +61 7 32529722 > Fax: +61 7 32571403 >Tritronics (Australia) Pty Ltd Email: robertb(a)tritro.com.au > >PGP Key fingerprint > = 02 A6 22 5E 26 D3 7C 4D E2 91 9E 15 AC EA B1 58 >Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get >a copy of my public key

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RE: Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
by Rich Burroughs 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:56 PM 1/6/97 +1000, Robert Barnes <rbarnes(a)gil.com.au> wrote: [snip] >My bottom line feeling with respect to this is that we cannot >expect freedom unless we are willing to exercise responsibility. >It is apparent that the people who are noisiest about freedom of >speech and content censoring are working tirelessly to abuse >the list and provoke the very opposite of their stated ideals. Hmmm. There has been some of that, but some of use who have spoken about freedom of speech have done so because of legitimate concerns, not just to gain advantage in an ongoing, juvenile campaign. >As for the spammers who have run riot in recent months, >moderation will remove the burden of re-transmitting this unwanted >garbage from the list server and save us all the time and effort >currently wasted dealing with it. Not completely. The plan John mentioned didn't elimainate the full version of the list -- it just added a modertated version. There will still be some garbage floating through Toad Hall, but not as much :) I think the idea of two versions of the list is an excellent one, and it avoids the issues raised by presenting the list in only a moderated form. If people want the spam they can have it, and if they don't they can take advantage of John and Sandy's work, and read a more coherent version of the list. I will certainly choose the latter, but it is nice to know that the choice is mine. John and Sandy -- thanks for getting this rolling. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ Rich Burroughs richieb(a)teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~richieb U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause

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Re: Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Rich Graves wrote: > > Bill Frantz wrote: > > > At 10:54 AM -0800 12/31/96, Timothy C. May wrote: > > > >Our focus is more radical. We are effectively a cyber-militia, > > > >fulfilling Jefferson's recommendation that a revolution happen > > > >every 20 years. (Funny, there hasn't been one in more than 200 years.[snip] > > >I would say that the street action which effectively eliminated legally > > >mandated racial segregation about 25 years ago qualifies as a revolution.[snip] > > Cryptoanarchy, as envisioned here, is not about people mobbing in the > > streets. It's fundamentally about insulating oneself from the mobs in > > the streets. However, revolutions tend to have unintended consequences.[snip] > Looks like we're coming to the old "irresistable force meets immovable > object" consensus, yes? Interesting. I suspect that all of you have forgotton that in order for there to be a revolution, there has to be something to revolt against. It works the other way too: in order to have elitist rulers, there have to be sheep. If you desire neither, then you have to renounce BOTH positions. It's not easy, but it -always- works. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.

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Re: John Gilmore, 58, dead of AIDS
by aga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 5 Jan 1997, Paul Pomes wrote: > |Somebody said it was a lie, but has anybody really SEEN this queer lately? > > Why do you care so much about Mr Gilmore's sexual orientation? Could there > be some internal conflict about your own that you'd like to share with us? > It would make a nice change from your usual rantings. > We care about his sexual orientation because it supports the proposition that MOST of the problem people currently on UseNet are "confirmed" homosexuals. Here is a list of three of the biggest problem people, and they are ALL problem people. J.D. Falk Peter Berger John Gilmore Of course, tale and Chris lewis have not been confirmed as homosexuals, so the percentage of "homos per.problem humanoids" will decline. > /pbp > -- > Fire mission ... battery one round ... rifle company in the open. Fire for > effect. (6 105mm rounds later) Add four hundred, left two hundred, > battalion six rounds. Fire for effect. > -- Lt Allen Bell, Chorwan Valley, Korea 1951 > > Nonetheless, the inordinately high percentage of homosexuals in the newsgroup administration is probably explained by the same social factors as the extremely high number of jews in the medical and legal professions and the high number of blacks in sports.

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