- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri(a)netcom.com> > To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way > > > what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over > <snip><snip><snip> > > timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing a troll

1 0

"cypherpunks is dead..."
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"...long live cypherpunks?" "So long, and thanks for all the fish?" But, seriously, folks... Lucky Green echoed many of my own thoughts when he talked about all the things being on this list has meant to him. Like Lucky, there is a rediculously huge list of things that this list has taught me over the almost three (wow..) years or so that I've been here. Thanks to all of you here, I have had nothing short of a Copernican transformation in my perception of the universe, and it completely changed what I wanted to do with the rest of my life. From the very first time I started reading this list and applying what I learned here to what I already knew, right then, for the first time in a *very* long time, I knew *exactly* how some very important pieces of the world actually worked, and more important, why they were going to change. I now *know* where the world is going to go. Maybe not when, of course, but certainly where and how. :-) (Old stock picker's joke: "I can tell you what. I can tell you when. I can't tell you both. If I did, I wouldn't tell *you*.") Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still here, and a lot who've left. I expect that, as we move into the next phase of this "group", we'll continue to teach ourselves much more about the world and strong cryptography's effect on it. But, nothing will compare to the feeling we'll get when we remember the time we've spent here at Toad Hall. We have John Gilmore to thank for the "lodgings", of course, and, certainly, for his encouragement and support. And, obviously, his tolerance, which finally sagged and broke under the weight of both his expectations and those of our own. We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current "leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here (myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most symmetrical indeed. :-). And so, in this last 24 hours or so on toad.com, I want to thank *both* Tim and John. But, also, I personally want to thank the "money-punks". People like Eric Hughes, and Perry Metzger, and Ian Goldberg, and Hal Finney, and Lucky Green, and Duncan Frissell, and Black Unicorn, and many, many other people, who have helped me work through, on this list, or in private e-mail, or, occasionally, in person, all of the stuff they know, and the stuff I have figured out myself. All about e$, about digital bearer certificate markets, about microintermediation. All the things which completely occupy almost all my waking thoughts these days. Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial cryptography to any audience who would listen to me, to create a web site dedicated to e$, to create a group of e$ lists with some 300 total subscribers, to work with Vinnie Moscaritolo to create both the Mac-Crypto lists and conferences, to work with Vince Cate and Ray Hirschfeld to create the world's first peer-reviewed conference on financial cryptography, and with Vince and Ian Goldberg to create the world's first intensive financial cryptography bootcamp (which is going on as I write this). To create, with Vinnie, and Rachel Wilmer, and Anthony Templer, and Bob Antia, and Rodney Thayer, the next generation of the e$ website and mailing lists. Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on this list. In the middle of March, I go to Cupertino to help Vinnie with Mac-Crypto 2.0, because of the things I've learned on this list. I've been invited to speak all over the world (and New Hampshire, too :-)) to talk about this stuff. I get quoted in the newspapers. I write magazine op-ed pieces. It has even earned me a buck or two. :-). In short, I owe everything I do of any consequence these days to my participation on this list, and, for that, I'm profoundly grateful to all of you for the privelege of being here: to listen, to learn, and, occasionally, to pay back all the stuff I've learned with a thing or two that I've worked out myself. Like that creosote bush I talked about before, cypherpunks is not going to die just because the address "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" ceases to exist. There are already 3rd-order cypherpunks lists out there. 3rd generation copies of the same "memetic" material. cypherpunks will *never* die, short of a cybernetic Chixalub event of some kind, and, frankly, even then. The internet sees censorship as damage and routes around it. So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who know how to live out here. The whole damn desert, as far as the eye can see, is ours to move into. All we have to do is keep filling in the empty spots... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

2 1

FIPS 196
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key Cryptography." http://jya.com/fips196.txt (12K)

1 0

Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
by Hayashi_Tsuyoshi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Mr. Robert Hettinga, This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, one of subscribers of the cypherpunks list, lives in Yokohama, Japan. I heard today's your voice on the cypherpunks list. I am little sad. I am almost ROM, read-only member... Although I have been hear for two and a half (wow..) years, I posted only three (or four...) messages. I am a bad boy. Sorry. > all Instead of it, I have gotten many many cripto-concerned info (such as PGP) which are worth reading (though they are very difficult for me, both technical and language ;-). Today I know about cryptography a little. I am working nearby the cryptographic field in Japan. So I DO want to say THANKS to all subscribers of the list and the owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com, and the host machine named toad.com [140.174.2.1]. On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:08 -0500, Robert Hettinga said: >Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still Yes, me too! >Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start >the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial [..] I found your DCSB list out about a month ago. This list is also interesting for me. Thanks. >Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on [..] I did want to go to FC97, but there is a long distance between Anguilla and Japan... I hope you will post the summary and/or topics of FC97 to the DCSB. :-) >[..] cypherpunks is not going to >die just because the address "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" ceases to exist. There Yah! >So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the >life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who # Sorry. Although there are both "creosote" and "bush" in # my English-Japanese dictionary, I could not understand # the meaning of "creosote bush". Please teach me it in # other easy words if you have a time. In English is OK. # In Japanese is the best. ;-) ==== Mr. Bob Hettinga and all, doumo arigatou gozaimashita! # And sorry for my poor English. In a "Roman Holiday", Audrey Hepburn said, "By all means, Roman..." Today I say, "By all means, Cypherpunks..." Best, - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take(a)barrier-free.co.jp> - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12 D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22) - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)

1 0

Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote: >We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this >list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current >"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next >few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his >part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who No, Bob, I actually took you out of my filter file (Eudora's killfile) a while back. It is true that I don't like your style, your writing style, that is. Some say I am overly sensitive to style issues...probably so. I find most modern cyber-journalism unreadable, with the hipper-than-thou "street cred" lingo and the obfuscatory purple prose. I find reading the straight-shooting words of even my ideological opponents (or opponents in some areas) far easier than reading the neo-journalistic hype some of my ideological fellow-travellers use. Nothing personal. >was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us >from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us >into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the >new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here >(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that >is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a >world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now >find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most >symmetrical indeed. :-). Well, I guess I have to say "Indeed." (Though I don't claim to be leading anyone, especially not off the list. After several weeks of saying nothing, I outlined my reasons for disliking the censorship move...reasons that had also been made by many other folks. Anyway, Adam Back's summary of events is pretty close to the mark.) The vision of where the world is headed, noted by Bob, has been clear to many of us for many years. When I first read about public key systems, circa 1977, I got an inkling. When I read Chaum's paper on untraceable digital cash, circa 1986, things got clearer. And when I evaluated the business plan of Phil Salin for his company, American Information Exchange, in 1987, everything fell into place. My role with him was to suggest how cryptographic protocols, including digital cash, would open up information markets. His company eventually got some funding, but failed. This company was several years too early, as it presaged many aspects of the Web (and, not coincidentally, its "sister company" was Xanadu, which even more clearly presaged the Web--indeed, Ted Nelson was the godfather of the Web. Anyway, by mid-1988, I wrote and distributed "the Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," which, to my surprise and satisfaction, basically anticipated all of the things now being done on Cypherpunks and elsewhere (anonymous remailers, message pools, steganography, BlackNet types of markets, ubiquitous crypto, etc.). The missing piece, digital cash, is a hard nut to crack...sure, it exists (Mark Twain Bank, DigiCash, etc.), but it's hard to get robust versions deployed and used. (Getting PGP integrated into mailers is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP support painless?) I agree with Bob and others that the Cypherpunks are in no danger of dying out. Things are just about to get a lot more interesting. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

3 2

DCSB: Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- The Digital Commerce Society of Boston Presents Daniel Greenwood, Esq. Deputy General Counsel Information Technology Division Commonwealth of Massachusetts "Online Government & Electronic Commerce - Legislation and Public Sector Initiatives" Tuesday, March 4, 1997 12 - 2 PM The Downtown Harvard Club of Boston One Federal Street, Boston, MA Dan will give us an update on recent information age legislative and operational developments in the public sector. Special attention will be paid to: Electronic Signature and Record Legislation; Joint Government/Private Sector Attempts to Set Certification Authority Standards; Cutting Edge Public Sector PKI Projects; Recent Coordinated State-Federal-Foreign Electronic Commerce Policy Initiatives; and much, much more . . . Speaker: Daniel Greenwood, Esq. Information Technology Division, Deputy General Counsel Commonwealth of Massachusetts Office: http://www.state.ma.us/itd/legal home: http://www.tiac.net/biz/danielg Mr. Greenwood practices information technology law for the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Recent relevant activities include: * Co-Author of the Draft 1997 Mass. Electronic Records and Signature Act * Chairman of the Commonwealth of Mass. PKI Task Force * Chairman of the ABA Info. Security Comm., Legislative Sub-Committee * Co-Chair of the ABA Cyberspace Law Comm., Legislative Work Group * Contributing Author: ABA Digital Signature Guidelines * Negotiator of Contracts for Internet Security and Payment Systems * Board Member of SigNet.Org and Chair of Legal Special Interest Group * Director of the Virtual State House Project (MIT/Stanford Law School) * Faculty Member: MCLE Health Care & Info. Technology Program * Guest Lecturer for Suffolk Law School High Tech. Symposium * Selection Board Chairman for First Commonwealth of Mass. C/A Business This meeting of the Digital Commerce Society of Boston will be held on Tuesday, March 4, 1997 from 12pm - 2pm at the Downtown Branch of the Harvard Club of Boston, One Federal Street. The price for lunch is $27.50. This price includes lunch, room rental, and the speaker's lunch. ;-). The Harvard Club *does* have dress code: jackets and ties for men, and "appropriate business attire" for women. We will attempt to record this meeting and put it on the web in RealAudio format at some future date We need to receive a company check, or money order, (or, if we *really* know you, a personal check) payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston", by Saturday, March 1, or you won't be on the list for lunch. Checks payable to anyone else but The Harvard Club of Boston will have to be sent back. Checks should be sent to Robert Hettinga, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, Massachusetts, 02131. Again, they *must* be made payable to "The Harvard Club of Boston". If anyone has questions, or has a problem with these arrangements (We've had to work with glacial A/P departments more than once, for instance), please let us know via e-mail, and we'll see if we can work something out. Planned speakers for DCSB are: March Daniel Greenwood The Role of State Government in Digital Commerce April Stewart Baker Encryption Policy and Digital Commerce We are actively searching for future speakers. If you are in Boston on the first Tuesday of the month, and you would like to make a presentation to the Society, please send e-mail to the DCSB Program Commmittee, care of Robert Hettinga, <mailto: rah(a)shipwright.com> . For more information about the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, send "info dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo(a)ai.mit.edu> . If you want to subscribe to the DCSB e-mail list, send "subscribe dcsb" in the body of a message to <mailto: majordomo(a)ai.mit.edu> . Looking forward to seeing you there! Cheers, Robert Hettinga Moderator, The Digital Commerce Society of Boston -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMwB+VvgyLN8bw6ZVAQEsRAQAiInZXDXlzdMn0B+b9A6zgWHH5POJku5v k9HIZK286Paw1KWKYsw8VyYjUoG4vq/LAh1CagWkwL4EN9Ysg7kbU+LP0W4u04vb /QoKk5rWpmXuplXx1Fp9IhIe2O6oV0vTInJqPV3zkXk4qGzYUrQ0bqLbQn769iMO 7pwwVbkioSc= =m5Pz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

1 0

Re: E-Gold: It had to happen
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100 From: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> To: Multiple recipients of <e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: Re: E-Gold: It had to happen some dead guy called gold dot wrote: > Yo, c-punks: Yo, dude > In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad > for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm). It appears > to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold > account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious > metals. Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't arrive until ... March. Your system "appears to be" an accounting system stuck on top of SSL. But I guess we don't get to find out, for sure, unless we commit lots of bucks... > See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info. Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to mention: who are you? where are you? when are you? will you be? -- iang iang(a)systemics.com ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/> Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

1 0

Re: E-Gold: It had to happen
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100 From: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> To: Multiple recipients of <e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: Re: E-Gold: It had to happen some dead guy called gold dot wrote: > Yo, c-punks: Yo, dude > In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad > for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm). It appears > to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold > account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious > metals. Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't arrive until ... March. Your system "appears to be" an accounting system stuck on top of SSL. But I guess we don't get to find out, for sure, unless we commit lots of bucks... > See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info. Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to mention: who are you? where are you? when are you? will you be? -- iang iang(a)systemics.com ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/> Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

1 0

Re: Cryptanalysis
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES. If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish. > >Vague explanations are OK. Dont want long drawn out explainations on >the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical >analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack. Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with lots and lots of results. It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries, because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-) Differential cryptanalysis, discovered by Biham and Shamir, shows that the NSA probably did help the design process when working with IBM to turn IBM's 128-bit-key Lucifer system into DES, and certainly didn't weaken it. Linear cryptanalysis, discovered more recently, shaves some more bits off the strength if you have an extremely large amount of known plaintext. Brute-force attacks on DES (just try lots of keys until you win) used to be viewed as almost infeasible, but about 5-6 years ago there were a couple of designs for cracking machines that could do a 1-day crack for $30-50M, and then Wiener's design for a $1M, 3.5-hour cracking machine about 5 years ago. Gate arrays have gotten denser, faster, and cheaper since then, and if you want to crack a _lot_ of keys (e.g. you're the NSA) you can probably afford to burn ASICs to get even denser and faster. The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/ decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.) There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and works better on bit-twiddliing chips. SKIPJACK is a totally different game - the NSA keeps the algorithm secret, and the only semi-outsiders who've seen it were a group of 5 people including Dorothy Denning and Dave Maher who were allowed to do a study when the NSA were trying to foist Clipper onto us. They concluded that SKIPJACK was reasonably strong (in their interim report), which gave them good propaganda points, and never did the "final report" that was supposed to address the entire Clipper chip (where most of the technical weaknesses were) and the key-handling charade around it. I don't remember if Matt Blaze's spoofing attack on the Clipper chip came before or after their interim report - the checksums were too short so you could impersonate another chip under reasonably wide conditions. According to the data sheets for the Mykotronx Clipper Chip, SKIPJACK is a Feistel-structured cypher with N rounds (I think it was 16 or 32.) 80 bits is enough that if anybody can discover the algorithm, it's too long to brute force today but starts looking pretty vulnerable in 10-20 years, and of course the Feds would have your keys today, so they can wiretap you, without needing legal authorization, and you can probably bribe a Fed faster than you can brute-force the chip. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

1 0

Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Attila T. Hun wrote: > on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> said: > +Simple, but.... In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the > +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim? Both the Rodney > +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you > +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions. > you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that > *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for > years that everyone is equal. yeah, right! > therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by > attorneys calling up racism. yeah, right! It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a (I suppose) victory salute. I didn't care to watch the charade in Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better. > as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away > permanently. I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation, which was fair to the officers. It was stated by Koon and one of the other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were. > Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in > the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost > 24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits > with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until > found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the > family should be punished as well. we wont even bother with the > issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights > trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except > Powell who they hung on. they had a clear right to try Powell, > noone else. It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times. One of their lead editor- ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky, writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde- pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97). Either that's a load of BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the Times, which is usually bad enough. BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy. Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother. Two bozos if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much about their newspaper editorial policy. > and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a > very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came > out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell. by the time > the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the > witnesses, nobody told the truth. The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials. The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to contradictory descriptions they've given before. Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to indict Simpson. I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case, where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but maybe there's something on the internet.... > Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled > substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized > for what he was --and easily identified. Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust. I heard first hand from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming. If a .38 won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy. It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so with a couple of K-9's... > in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you > start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no > stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or > 'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, > except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop. When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and weighed 120 lbs. I weighed 130 when I came out. I guess I could have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity. In any case, I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King, so I lean toward the cops as much as I can. BTW (and speaking of stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45 went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders. > and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the > LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial. I dont > know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or > just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news. > or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of > the oppressive whiteface? Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune. Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil, Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the- scene experience in the JFK killing. Remember Netanyahu, who spent all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and take command in a crisis? Well, he did, and have you seen any recent pictures of him? Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary. Big, big money. > it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when > you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of > them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west > Valley, what was horse country when I lived there. they had a job > to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half > of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems. > Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline > hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of > the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was > double decked. > Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's > bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box > and dock in between. yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; > take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors. > perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his > actions. [heh heh] The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace. And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the city really clean. No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under Mayor Riordan. Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess. Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged. Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something. Funny that when he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao. [remainder snipped]

1 0