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Network Associates' KRA Partner status
by Jim Gillogly 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Bruce Schneier said in the "News" section of Crypto-Gram: >> Okay, I finally got the story right about Network Associates Inc. and the >> Key Recovery Alliance. (Last month I pointed to a Wired News story that >> they quietly rejoined.) The story is wrong. They never left the KRA. >> Since its inception, Trusted Information Systems was a big mover and shaker >> in the KRA. When NAI bought TIS in May 1998, TIS's membership transferred >> to NAI. NAI resigned the leadership posts that TIS had held in the >> Alliance and stopped attending its meetings, but never left the KRA. So, >> NAI is a member of the KRA, and has been since it bought TIS. >> http://www.wired.com/news/print_version/technology/story/16219.html Someone responded: > When NAI bought PGP, in late 1997, Phil Zimmermann found out about NAI's > membership, and he was able to persuade management to withdraw from > the KRA. This is why it is wrong to say that NAI never left the KRA. > See http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,17112,00.html. I remember hearing this at the time. The cited article (8 Dec 1997) has supporting quotes from NAI's Gene Hodges. In addition, Dave Del Torto wrote to the secretary of KRA last month and got a response from secretariat staffer Michael LoBue on 20 Nov 1998 that addresses this point in passing: Indeed, some of this current 'public debate' about NAI's relationship with the KRA goes back to their public statement that they 'withdrew' from the organization. The fact of the matter is that they simply did not choose to become an actual member at the time the organization was formally constituted. When it was reported that they withdrew, there was in fact no entity from which to withdraw. While the actual status of KRA is interesting, the relevant point is that NAI did indeed say they were withdrawing, and they did withdraw from participation in the nascent organization. > NAI bought TIS a few months later. TIS was a member and in fact a leading > member of the KRA. By purchasing TIS, NAI inherited its membership in > the KRA, and so NAI was once again a member. It was more explicit than this. Michael LoBue said further: Concerning Network Associates membership in the KRA, in response to your question I have verified that our files contain an executed Membership Agreement for Network Associates (dated July 2, 1998), as well as a properly completed Application for Membership of that same date. This is not just accepting the existing membership status of TIS. It's reversing NAI's non-membership status and explicitly joining. DDT's message and KRA's response were posted to several lists on 22 Nov 1998. Somebody'd better write this all in a physical book before the wrong version gets scribbled into history. Webbage is nice, but is regrettably transient. -- Jim Gillogly 26 Foreyule S.R. 1998, 18:06 12.19.5.13.19, 5 Cauac 12 Mac, Ninth Lord of Night

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[e-money] Press Review IV: E-mail trail
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:37:56 +0100 To: e-money(a)moving-art-studio.com From: jens-ingo <jens.ingo.brodesser(a)euronet.be> Subject: [e-money] Press Review IV: E-mail trail Sender: owner-e-money(a)mail.serve.com Reply-To: owner-e-money(a)moving-art-studio.com MOVING ART STUDIO LIST: E-MONEY http://www.moving-art-studio.com/ ================================= found in wired news on 16 dec 1998 pst http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16485.html ==================== start quoted text ==================== China Delays Net Trial Reuters 7:35 a.m. 25.Nov.98.PST SHANGHAI -- China has delayed the closed-door trial of a man accused of using the Internet to undermine the state, and on Wednesday his wife called for an open court hearing. Lin Hai, a 30-year-old computer engineer, had been scheduled to go on trial on Thursday. He is accused of inciting subversion of state power, but a Shanghai court has postponed the case indefinitely, said Lin's wife, Xu Hong. "They did not say when it might get underway," Xu told Reuters. "When it starts, I would want it to be in open court so there would be public scrutiny." Lin, who was arrested in March, has been accused of using the Internet to send tens of thousands of email addresses to VIP Reference, a dissident publication based in the United States. If convicted, he could face up to life in prison. The case was to be heard in a closed-door session at the Shanghai Number One Intermediate Court. Even the defendant's wife was to be barred from court. "Of course I believe I should be at the trial," Xu said. "But the hearing should be open to the public as well." The court offered no explanation for its sudden decision to postpone the hearing, but Xu said it could be a result of international interest in the case. The case has been ignored by the official Chinese media but has attracted widespread attention abroad. Some 1.2 million Chinese are on the Internet, and the total is expected to reach 5 million by 2000. The government has embraced the Internet, but so have a number of dissident groups. VIP Reference, one of many dissident publications that have sprung up online, says it sends information to 250,000 email accounts in China from various email addresses in the United States. Court documents called VIP Reference a hostile foreign organization, and claimed it used data provided by Lin "to disseminate large numbers of articles aimed at inciting subversion of state power and the socialist system." Lin ran a now-defunct software company that set up Web sites and provided job searches for multinational companies. His supporters say he frequently exchanged or purchased email addresses to build up a database for his online job search business. Copyright© 1998 Reuters Limited. ==================== end quoted text ==================== ================================== You are subscribed to the list e-money. To *un*subscribe simply send mail to e-money(a)moving-art-studio.com *message text: subscribe or unsubscribe* --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: Network Associates' KRA Partner status
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Gillogly writes: >I remember hearing this at the time. The cited article (8 Dec 1997) has >supporting quotes from NAI's Gene Hodges. In addition, Dave Del Torto >wrote to the secretary of KRA last month and got a response from >secretariat staffer Michael LoBue on 20 Nov 1998 that addresses this >point in passing: > > Indeed, some of this current 'public debate' about NAI's > relationship with the KRA goes back to their public statement > that they 'withdrew' from the organization. The fact of the matter > is that they simply did not choose to become an actual member at the > time the organization was formally constituted. When it was reported > that they withdrew, there was in fact no entity from which to withdraw. This sounds like some legalistic spin-doctoring from the KRA to try to minimize the political impact of the departure. Are they really claiming that the KRA did not exist as late as December, 1997? See their own press release at http://www.kra.org/clips/alliance2.html, dated October 2, 1996, describing the formation of the KRA. See also the McAfee press release at http://www.nai.com/about/news/press/1996/121296.asp, dated December 12, 1996, saying that McAfee was joining the KRA, and the KRA press release http://www.kra.org/clips/prkeyrec0597.html from May, 1997, welcoming 22 new members. Perhaps their story is that prior to December, 1997, the KRA had enough existence for companies to join, but not enough for them to withdraw? >> NAI bought TIS a few months later. TIS was a member and in fact a leading >> member of the KRA. By purchasing TIS, NAI inherited its membership in >> the KRA, and so NAI was once again a member. > >It was more explicit than this. Michael LoBue said further: > > Concerning Network Associates membership in the KRA, in response to your > question I have verified that our files contain an executed Membership > Agreement for Network Associates (dated July 2, 1998), as well as a properly > completed Application for Membership of that same date. > >This is not just accepting the existing membership status of TIS. It's >reversing NAI's non-membership status and explicitly joining. Keep in mind that the KRA is apparently trying to put a particular spin on events, as is clear from their strained attempt to claim that NAI never withdrew because their was "no entity from which to withdraw." They want to maximize the appearance of commercial support for their organization. The membership applications they are referring to may just be the paperwork needed to officially transfer the membership from TIS to NAI. This would represent NAI's decision to continue to be a member of the KRA but would not be a matter of joining anew; rather it would maintain the existing relationship inherited from TIS.

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Re: Network Associates' KRA Partner status
by Jim Gillogly 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Somebody said in response to my quoting the message from KRA to Dave Del Torto: > The membership applications they are referring to may just be the > paperwork needed to officially transfer the membership from TIS to NAI. > This would represent NAI's decision to continue to be a member of the > KRA but would not be a matter of joining anew; rather it would maintain > the existing relationship inherited from TIS. Whether or not KRA had a legal existence at the time NAI withdrew from it, my main points (and yours, assuming you're the same Somebody as before) still stand. NAI did announce after the PGP acquisition that they were withdrawing from KRA, whatever its legal status at the time, and they did take explicit action to join, rejoin, or transfer TIS's membership to themselves. It was <not> simply a passive acquisition of the TIS membership as a result of absorbing TIS. Our points of difference seem to be much smaller than our agreements, and the recent Schneier article doesn't appear to match this version of history. -- Jim Gillogly 26 Foreyule S.R. 1998, 21:29 12.19.5.13.19, 5 Cauac 12 Mac, Ninth Lord of Night

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RE: Nitwits
by Harvey Rook (Exchange) 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May Wrote... > > Some (Nitwits) are from Yahoo, some from MyDejaNews (tm), some from > HotMail. And then > there are the unilluminati from WebTV and AOL. > The depressing thing is that AOL as at least 14 million paying subscribers. It may even be up to 20 million. Hotmail has 30 million active accounts. The unilluminati are the future of the internet. Harv

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Clinton Attacks Iraq
by Eric Cordian 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Looks like Bubba has launched a massive strike on Iraq to draw attention from his cocksucking problems. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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Open Letter To William Klinton (fwd)
by Missouri FreeNet Administration 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:30:55 -0600 (CST) Dear Mr. Klinton, Your actions in bombing Bagdad, *solely* to distract from your own impeachment problems, is a Stalin-like crime against humanity. I am *astounded* that you are willing to throw away the lives of innocent people in your attempt to hold your [so often abused] power. Impeachment is no longer enough: only assasination could hope to bring Justice to the world at this point. I fervently pray that some heroic man or woman will have the courage and moral standing to answer the call and end your miserable Nazi existence, and once again allow us to hold our heads up when announcing that we are an American citizen. Right now, I am totally ashamed: of you, of the Country for allowing you to get to this point, of the system of putrid politicians that allows you to stay in an office which allows you to maim and murder in such a wanton and capricious manner. In short, I am ashamed of my citizenship. Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin(a)mfn.org -- If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Nitwits
by HyperReal-Anon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Sites like AOL and Hotmail do a great service to the net: They hurd the >unilluminati onto a select few sites, making it easier to blackhole them en >masse. This is what happens when you read literature on GNU Hurd while you're posting.

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by JMaflk＠msn.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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RE: Clinton Attacks Iraq
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Cordian [mailto:emc@wire.insync.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 4:20 PM > To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net > Subject: Clinton Attacks Iraq > > Looks like Bubba has launched a massive strike on Iraq to > draw attention > from his cocksucking problems. Spoken like a poet. First thought, best thought. Here's a loose haiku: Bubba launched a massive strike on Iraq blowjob snag go *poof* Excuse the abuse of style... C.G. -- sig space for lease

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