- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 23:23:18 -0600 (CST) > From: ichudov(a)algebra.com > > I can give you an example. > > ``Jim Choate invented an improved bubble sort method, called BSAM.'' > > This is undoubtedly false since you likely did not invent any sorting > method. But you would not be able to get any damages (is that correct?) Under the present system? Yes, it would not be worth a lawyers time to process the appropriate paperwork unless I were a computer scientist and the statement was published in a reputable magazine by something like the ACM or IEEE. Under the system I propose you would be forced to publish a public recantation in the local press as well as paying the legal fees for the trial at least. Provided of course it was worth the cost of the bond to me. After all it is my reputation. The only person who should make decisions about how important my reputation is to me is me, most definitely not you or any other third party. I suspect you would not allow me to decide your reputation either. > When you say "should", what do you mean? That the current law will > hold you to a minimum standard of evidence? > Or you mean that it would be nice if it were so? Neither, the currrent requirements of the law are irrelevant. My premise is that such current laws are broke, why would I want to promote them? Answer, I wouldn't. As to 'nice', what is nice isn't an issue. What is necessary is the recognition that for a democratic society to exist in a world where business is done based on reputations by parties who may never make more contact than a email and EFT making statements about such reputations which are not backed by verifiable evidence should be discouraged strongly. > > A democratic society should have no tolerence for libel, slander, or other > > forms of lies. > > Why? And who decides what is a lie? This is almost too silly to even respond to. A lie is a statement which could be true but isn't. In the context of the current discussion this would mean that a statement made by one party about another party which was told to a third party and was not verifiable with evidence. Why should anyone tolerate a liar? Responsible and reasonable people don't tolerate liars. Who decides? The same group who decides now, the jury. > > In civil cases the plaintiff should place a bond, set at some percentage of > > the maximum permissible award, at the time the case is filed. This would at > > least cover the general costs of the court and limit nuisance cases. > > > > You can either oppose "specieocracy" and inequality of rich and > poor in libel litigation, or ask to place bonds that will make even > harder for the poor to sue, BUT NOT BOTH, if you want to remain logical. This is another clever attempt at a smoke screen. Nice try but 'Brrrrrttt', you loose the bet. I would suggest you don't play poker, your bluffs are truly amateurish. If the plaintiff pays up front or at the end is irrelevant. If the plaintiff loses they pay the cost of the court. If they win then the defendant pays the court costs, reimbursment of the bond, and the penalites awarded by the jury/court. The only reason to require anything up front is to act as a verification that the plaintiff can pay the court costs (which they get back if they win and must pay anyway if they loose) up front. The reason being that it would be possible without this for people to skip out on the court costs if they loose, which would cause another more expensive cost, a criminal trial, that the people in general would have to carry. The end result would be that the taxes we would have to pay would be higher just like your credit card costs are more expensive than they need to be because of fraud by other card holders. I would never attempt to speak for you but I pay too much tax now taking care of deadbeats and similar sorts. Further more, the bond would not have to be extravagant. If it were a simple case of libel with no punitive damages involved it would be resolved by a small claims court and might require no more than $25 - $50 as a bond. The point of the bond is to make the plaintiff think twice, not hinder them if that is what they truly feel is their due. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
by rex 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Black Unicorn <unicorn(a)schloss.li> wrote: >If you want to look at it a different way, if you are involved with a drug >offense and are not using a weapon, you'll get a lower sentence than a >full fledged drug crime. It's a step in the right direction - i.e. away >from manadatory sentencing of a flat time period for a crime regardless of >circumstances. But Putra got the same sentence she would have gotten had she been convicted on both charges. The fact that she was acquitted meant nothing. UNITED STATES v. VERNON WATTS UNITED STATES v. CHERYL PUTRA on petition for writ of certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the ninth circuit No. 95-1906. Decided January 6, 1997 Per Curiam. In these two cases, two panels of the Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit held that sentencing courts could not consider conduct of the defendants underlying charges of which they had been acquitted. United States v. Watts, 67 F. 3d 790 (CA9 1995) (-Watts-); United States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386 (CA9 1996) (-Putra-). [...] Because the panels' holdings conflict with the clear implications of 18 U. S. C. 3661, the Sentencing Guidelines, and this Court's decisions, particularly Witte v. United States, 515 U. S. ___ (1995), we grant the petition and reverse in both cases. [...] Justice Stevens, dissenting. The Sentencing Reform Act of 1984 revolutionized the manner in which district courts sentence persons convicted of federal crimes. Burns v. United States, 501 U. S. 129, 132 (1991). The goals of rehabilitation and fairness served by individualized sentencing that formerly justified vesting judges with virtually unreviewable sentencing discretion have been replaced by the impersonal interest in uniformity and retribution. [...] II The issue of law raised by the sentencing of Cheryl Putra involved the identification of the offense level that determined the range within which the judge could exercise discretion. Because she was a first offender with no criminal history, that range was based entirely on the offense or offenses for which she was to be punished. She was found guilty of aiding and abetting the intended distribution of one ounce of cocaine on May 8, 1992, but not guilty of participating in a similar transaction involving five ounces of cocaine on May 9, 1992. United States v. Putra, 78 F. 3d 1386, 1387 (CA9 1996). If the guilty verdict provided the only basis for imposing punishment on Ms. Putra, the Guidelines would have required the judge to impose a sentence of no less than 15 months in prison and would have prohibited him from imposing a sentence longer than 21 months. If Putra had been found guilty of also participating in the 5 ounce transaction on May 9, 1992, the Guidelines would have required that both the minimum and the maximum sentences be increased; the range would have been between 27 and 33 months. As the District Court applied the Guidelines, precisely the same range resulted from the acquittal as would have been dictated by a conviction. Notwithstanding the absence of sufficient evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, the alleged offense on May 9 led to the imposition of a sentence six months longer than the maximum permitted for the only crime that provided any basis for punishment. In my judgment neither our prior cases nor the text of the statute warrants this perverse result. And the vigor of the debate among judges in the courts of appeals on this basic issue belies the ease with which the Court addresses it, without hearing oral argument or allowing the parties to fully brief the issues. [...] Even more than Williams, this Court, like all of the Circuits that have adopted the same approach as the District Courts in these cases, relies primarily on the misguided five-to-four decision in McMillan v. Pennsylvania, 477 U. S. 79 (1986). For the reasons stated in my dissent in that case, id., at 95-104, I continue to believe that it was incorrectly decided and that its holding should be reconsidered. Even accepting its holding that the Constitution does not require proof beyond a reasonable doubt to establish a sentencing factor that increases the minimum sentence without altering the maximum, however, there are at least two reasons why McMillan does not dictate the outcome of these cases. In McMillan, as in these cases, the defendant's minimum sentence was enhanced on the basis of a fact proved by a preponderance of the evidence. But in McMillan, the maximum was unchanged; the sentence actually imposed was within the range that would have been available to the judge even if the enhancing factor had not been proved. In these cases, however, the sentences actually imposed were higher than the Guidelines would have allowed without evidence of the additional offenses. The McMillan opinion pointedly noted that the Pennsylvania statute had not altered the maximum penalty for the crime committed and operated solely to limit the sentencing courts' discretion in selecting a penalty within the range already available to it without the special finding of visible possession of a firearm. Id., at 87-88. Given the Court's acknowledged inability to lay down any `bright line' test that would define the limits of its holding, id., at 91, and its apparent assumption that a sentencing factor should not be allowed to serve as a tail which wags the dog of the substantive offense, id., at 88, see also ante, at 7, n. 2, the holding should not be extended to allow a fact proved by only a preponderance to increase the entire range of penalties within which the sentencing judge may lawfully exercise discretion. [...] In my opinion the statute should be construed in the light of the traditional requirement that criminal charges must be sustained by proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That requirement has always applied to charges involving multiple offenses as well as a single offense. Whether an allegation of criminal conduct is the sole basis for punishment or merely one of several bases for punishment, we should presume that Congress intended the new sentencing Guidelines that it authorized in 1984 to adhere to longstanding procedural requirements enshrined in our constitutional jurisprudence. The notion that a charge that cannot be sustained by proof beyond a reasonable doubt may give rise to the same punishment as if it had been so proved is repugnant to that jurisprudence.

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Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg, I read your missive (cpunks.html). It was interesting and thoughtful, despite the lack of ASCII art. I thought that I would reply to it by private email, in order to be able to speak bluntly, without damaging some of the rather fragile egos on the list. On the list I do my best to refrain from personal insults toward others, but there sometimes comes a point where the mere facts of a matter tend to be insulting to others, despite attempts to tippy-toe around them. Your HTML post does, in fact, deal with some very important points in regard to the content of the list. So much so, that it points out one of the major reasons that I see the moderation/censorship process that has been implemented as a deceitful and shoddy treatment of CypherPunk list members. After years of reaping the rewards of his role of crypto-anarchist- privacy-freedom/of/speech champion (which he has every right to), John Gilmore decides to declare, "My machine--my list. I'm changing it." (He might as well have added, "Anyone who doesn't like it can go fuck themselves!") John Gilmore effectively said, "I 'AM' the cypherpunks." Despite the fact that he rarely posts to it and does not participate in the discussions. And exactly what was the purpose behind the changes? Any two imbeciles with a case of beer could have sat down in a single evening and hammered out a solution to the problems you have addressed. Instead, John chose to confiscate the subscribers by giving his 'new' list the cypherpunks name, instead of building a new list on its own merits. And he set it up so that anyone who wants to follow what is happening in the moderation/censorship process gets 'twice as much' crapola as before. The fact is, there is not one, single member who expressed a desire to continue receiving the Tim May crapola or the UCE/Spam crapola. But the process was set up so that those who choose not to receive the edited/moderated/censored list get this shit forwarded to them, by design of John and Sandy. As far as 'censoring' goes, 'people' are being censored, not 'content'. I, among others, am auto-botted to the flames and uncensored lists. My 'offense' appears to be questioning the New List Order. If John, in his 'moderation' announcement, had stated that he intended to automatically shit-can certain member's postings, he would have lost even what shaky respect he still maintains among people who are paying a modicum of attention to what is actually transpiring on the list. To tell the truth, my original concern with Sandy censoring the list was that he does not have a particularly good command of the English language, and he seems to have trouble grasping the concepts involved in moderation/censorship. I actually like Sandy, so I was hoping my forebodings would turn out to be incorrect, but they have not. I think he is in over his head and, as a result, his moderation is close to being a joke. This is not a 'casual' observation. I have read every single message since the start of moderation, and documented the censored/uncensored posts, as well as analyzing the headers, etc. There are more than a few obtuse things going on behind the scenes. I believe that your view of 60% on-topic but uninteresting is a figure fairly close to how more than a few list members view the situation, but no one seems to realize that they are each talking about a different 60%, which, taken together, encompasses the majority of the postings. Think of it this way--what if each member was allowed to cut-out the 60% that they personally found uninteresting? What do you think would be left? You seem to be one of the few list members who realizes what they gain by having a 'library' of posts that introduce them to information and perspectives that broaden their horizons. I would hate to lose access to your posts because another member cut them out as a part of the 60% that s/he found 'uninteresting'.

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Re: [FLAME] Making OCR'ed code transfer easier
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dimmy Vulis K[ock]OfTheMinute prefers to have sex with little kids because his own penis is like that of a three-year-old. o_o ( ) Dimmy Vulis K[ock]OfTheMinute ( | | ) ' " " `

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Re: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..]
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mike Denney wrote: > > ----- Begin Included Message ----- > > >From sysgu-1(a)PaloAlto01.pop.internex.net Thu Jan 30 14:31 PST 1997 > Subject: Fwd:[Yet another -onics..] > To: "Sonni Zambino" <sonni(a)dentistat.com>, "Mike Denney" <gomez(a)BASISinc.com>, > "Jim Staudenheimer" <JnCStaud(a)aol.com> > Mime-Version: 1.0 > > ***************************** > "GEEKONICS" IS JUST A BEGINNING > by John Woestendiek > Philadelphia Inquirer > Wed., January 8, 1997 > ***************************** > > NEWS BULLETIN: Saying it will improve the education of children who > have grown up immersed in computer lingo, the school board in San > Jose, Calif., has officially designated computer English, or > "Geekonics", as a second language. > > The historic vote on Geekonics - a combination of the word "geek" and > the word "phonics" - came just weeks after the Oakland school board > recognized black English, or Ebonics, as a distinct language. > > "This entirely reconfigures our parameters," Milton "Floppy" > Macintosh, chairman of Geekonics Unlimited, said after the school > board became the first in the nation to recognize Geekonics. > "No longer are we preformatted for failure," Macintosh said during a > celebration that saw many Geekonics backers come dangerously close to > smiling. "Today, we are rebooting, implementing a program to process > the data we need to interface with all units of humanity." > > Controversial and widely misunderstood, the Geekonics movement was > spawned in California's Silicon Valley, where many children have grown > up in households headed by computer technicians, programmers, engineers > and scientists who have lost ability to speak plain English and have > inadvertently passed on their high-tech vernacular to their children. > > HELPING THE TRANSITION > > While schools will not teach the language, increased teacher awareness > of Geekonics, proponents say, will help children make the transition > to standard English. Those students, in turn, could possibly help > their parents learn to speak in a manner that would lead listeners to > believe that they have actual blood coursing through their veins. > > "Bit by bit, byte by byte, with the proper system development, with > nonpreemptive multitasking, I see no reason why we can't download the > data we need to modulate our oral output," Macintosh said. The > designation of Ebonics and Geekonics as languages reflects a growing > awareness of our nation's lingual diversity, experts say. Other groups > pushing for their own languages and/or vernaculars to be declared > official viewed the Geekonics vote as a step in the right direction. > > "This is just, like, OK, you know, the most totally kewl thing, like, > ever," said Jennifer Notat-Albright, chairwoman of the Committee for > the Advancement of Valleyonics, headquartered in Southern California. > "I mean, like, you know?" she added. > > THEY'RE HAPPY IN DIXIE > > Yeee-hah," said Buford "Kudzu" Davis, president of the Dixionics > Coalition. "Y'all gotta know I'm as happy as a tick on a sleeping > bloodhound about this." Spokesmen for several subchapters of Dixionics > - including Alabonics, Tennesonics and Louisionics - also said they > approved of the decision. Bill Flack, public information officer for > the Blue Ribbon Task Force on Bureaucratonics said that his > organization would not comment on the San Jose vote until it convened > a summit meeting, studied the impact, assessed the feasibility, > finalized a report and drafted a comprehensive action plan, > which, once it clears the appropriate subcommittees and is voted on, > will be made public to those who submit the proper information-request > forms. > > Proponents of Ebonics heartily endorsed the designation of Geekonics > as an official language. > > "I ain't got no problem wif it," said Earl E. Byrd, president of the > Ebonics Institute. "You ever try talkin' wif wunna dem computer dudes? > Don't matter if it be a white computer dude or a black computer dude; > it's like you be talkin' to a robot - RAM, DOS, undelete, MegaHertZ. > Ain't nobody understands. But dey keep talkin' anyway. 'Sup wif dat?" > Those involved in the lingual diversity movement believe that only by > enacting many different English languages, in addition to all the > foreign ones practiced here, can we all end up happily speaking the > same boring one, becoming a nation that is both unified in its > diversity, and diversified in its unity. Others say that makes no > sense at all. In any language. > > ----- End Included Message -----

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Degaussing diskettes
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment wears satin lingerie embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his faggot, AIDS infected lovers. \|/ @ @ -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Dopehead L[ice] Vilus K[rust]OfTheMoment

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[ITAR] Zero-knowledge interactive proofs
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Derisve L]oser[ Vampire K]unt[OfTheMinute is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness. .-._ {_}^ )o {\________//~` ( ) Dr.Derisve L]oser[ Vampire K]unt[OfTheMinute /||~~~~~||\ |_\\_ \\_\_ "' ""' ""'"'

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Weak cryptoanarchy
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dimitri Vindictive K[rap]OTM is a pimply dweeb sitting at a computer chortling at his own imagined cleverness. |\_/| (0_0) Dimitri Vindictive K[rap]OTM ==(Y)== ---(u)---(u)---

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PGP Source code implementation
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dainty Virus K[ankersore]OTM wears satin lingerie embroidered with pink swastikas, prancing around for his homosexual, AIDS infected lovers. ,/ \, ((__,-"""-,__)) `--)~ ~(--` .-'( )`-, Dainty Virus K[ankersore]OTM `~~`d\ /b`~~` | | (6___6) `---`

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Re: CAST
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ted, Thanks for the URL correction on Carlisle Adam's CAST paper. I see that the Entrust site offers the paper in Word and Postscript formats; for those who may prefer an HTML version see a copy downloaded from the Nortel site at: http://jya.com/cast.html

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