- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: Netscape
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:15 PM 7/25/96 +0000, The Deviant wrote: >hOn Wed, 24 Jul 1996, jim bell wrote: >> That still doesn't make sense. >> First, there were laws. And we had to obey them. >> Then, they added ITAR. And they want us to obey it. >> Finally, it seems, they're giving us "guidelines." Not law, Not ITAR. >> Next it's gonna be their their fondest desires, their preferences,and >> finally their whims. >> What's wrong with this picture? Do I detect an ass-kissing contest? > >Yup.. thats it. And they said I was an idiot when I [Correctly] said >that Netscape wasn't activly fighting the ITAR. Agreed. Writing good crypto is certainly praiseworthy and desirable, but it does not "fight ITAR," per se. (It fights lack of crypto, which is not the same thing! Lack of crypto certainly needs to be fought, as well.) Writing the software and selling it domestically is, at best, "ITAR-neutral." Putting it on the net in the most unrestrictive way the State Department has previously approved of is also "ITAR-neutral." (Because such a method is, presumably, within the rights of anyone; we can conclude this because "the State Department said so.") A _PRO_-ITAR stance is one in which a company or person puts restrictions on his distribution of that software above and beyond what have historically been approved, particularly when prior distributions of software are still going on with those previously-approved restrictions. They may be absolutely entitled to do so, but that's still pro-ITAR. For a small and uninfluential company, the significance of doing that is minor, but for Netscape, it's crucial because it practically invites the government to set a new precedent beyond what they (the government) previously thought they might get away with. >> You should have told them that if they're "evaluating their guidelines" that >> means that NO future modifications to those guidelines is binding on you, >> since it is not part of ITAR and is CERTAINLY not part of the law. You >> should have memorialized the contact with a lawyer's letter, and promptly >> posted the new version of your software with whatever version of the >> precautions (MIT, RSA, or?) you felt most happy with. >> > >Or even better... Lets look at this version... > >lets say I get my internet service from MCI. Now lets say I put crypto on >my web page. When somebody from out of the country visits my web page, >and downloads it, who's exporting it? Them, MCI, or me? I'd say they >are, and I doubt ITAR covers this... this is one of those things thats >covered in "guidelines". ;) umm.... Smooch Smooch? Yes, if we really oppose ITAR, we should kill it by insisting that the government fully document it at every turn. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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RE: Distributed DES crack
by pjn＠nworks.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> half that time...and a slim chance that we will get it with the first >> try... > My figures were based on 2^55 tries, which is exactly half of 2^56. Ahhh... OK. P.J. pjn(a)nworks.com ... Open mouth, insert foot, echo internationally. ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20 [NR]

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[Rant] Re: One of the biggest problems with freedom
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:23 AM 7/25/96 -0700, anonymous-remailer(a)shell.portal.com wrote: >Example: "I don't care if the government has my keys >for encryption. I don't do anything wrong, and if it >helps FBI enforce our just laws, I am all for it. Since >anyone who tries to get keys without legal means will end >up in Leavenworth for the rest of their life, there is >no problems with people getting access to those things." <rant> I usually ask people like this why they would wind up in Levenworth for the rest of their life? Or spend any time in jail at all? Government agents are frequently found going through the records of friends and enemies. haven ANY of them gone to jail? Sometimes one or two will get a repremand of caught doing something real dirty. There seem to be few, if any, penalties for Government Agents caught with their hands in the cookie jar. (Unless it involves cash.) Like the police, Government officials tend to protect their own. If they start to open your encrypted mail, how do you know? It is not like the postal service doing it where you can see the ripped up envolopes. Ask them if they would mind postal inspectors going through all of their private letters and postal mail. (Just to make sure you are not talking about anything you shouldn't...) Or maybe watching you when you shower to make sure that you do not have any underage children in their with you. There are lots of excuses to be made for intruding into people's lives. Does not mean it is right. suggestion for the truely insane/bored: If you really want to start driving the point home, start intercepting their mail. Steam the envalopes open, read it, seal it back up and put in back. Mention small details of their private correspondence in passing. Mention that they have still not paid that bill for Soap Opera Digest. Talk about all the money they own Uncle Bob. They will soon get the point. <<DISCLAIMER: Do not try this at home! Private citizens cannot get away with this, only "Governments".>> People do not seem to think about these restrictions until they REALLY start to affect them. By then it is too late. It will "never happen to them"! (You also might want to point out that not all people accused are actually guilty. Some of the worst cases are shown to be fedrales operating off of old or bad data. The innocent citizen just happens to get caught in the path of the Fedreral Juggernaught. Most of the "average citizens" who I have met who are willing to give up their freedom are far too clueless and trusting to get the point. The Government is there to help them. (Help themselves to their money, their property, their personal information, their piece of mind, etc. etc. etc.) </rant> --- Alan Olsen -- alano(a)teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises."

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Industry and Government "Guidelines" (Is Speech Next?)
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 5:15 PM 7/25/96, The Deviant wrote: ... >> Then, they added ITAR. And they want us to obey it. >> >> Finally, it seems, they're giving us "guidelines." Not law, Not ITAR. >> >> Next it's gonna be their their fondest desires, their preferences,and >> finally their whims. I was going to reply, but I have decided to follow the "speech guidelines" suggested by my local MiniTru authority figure. While the government does not demand that my words be cleared by them, they have made it clear that if I sign a "Good Citizen Pledge," and agree not to speak of certain things, that my problems with the government will be lessened, my export requests expedited, and my passage through Customs will be eased. --Tim May Seriously, I think there are serious "rule of law" issues arising out of these "consultations" between industry and government. Things are not spelled out, as Mindy Cohn of the Bernstein case so articulately has described, and people seeking clearcut decisions about what can and can't be exported find they get no answers. "We can't define an illegal export, but we know it if we see it." And actually not even this, as the decision often takes months or longer, or no response is ever received. (Was the ITAR violation t-shirt ever given a CJR or turned down for one? Though my personal view is that the t-shirt was a side issue, and a frivolous example, last I heard State was simply not responding one way or another.) Seems to me, and I'm sure to others, that the ITARs are a clear case of what lawyers call "overvagueness." And my joke about a "Good Citizen Pledge" is only partly a joke. The language of companies "coming to agreements" with the State Department, in exchange for expedited handling, is a dangerous trend. Carried further, it could create classes of companies and citizens, not all of whom would be treated equally under the law. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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CD Prices and Inflation
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 6:18 PM 7/25/96, jim bell wrote: >If what Duncan said were true, then you'd see music stores spring up which >sell ONLY the "Top-40 stock", but sell it for pre-CD vinyl prices. They'd >get all that business, and OTHER record stores would sell the obscure stuff. > That's not happening. Something not being talked about in any of the messages I've seen is the role of _inflation_. Those claiming CD prices are "too high" should consider inflation. (Caveat: I also consider CD prices "too high," in terms of what I'd _like_ to pay.) When I first started buying LPs, circa 1967, LP prices were usually around $4.88 (that figure rings a bell, no pun intended). Some discount prices were around $3.67, at a local PX (Post Exchange, a military store, usually having subsidized prices). I do recall paying $5.98 for some albums I wanted. And in those days the average working man's salary was under $10,000 a year, gold was $35-40 an ounce, a new 3-bedroom house in many areas cost $20-30K, a pound of hamburger cost less than a dollar, a copy of "Scientific American" cost either 60 or 75 cents (price increased) and a paperback book cost between 75 cents and $1.25. (These numbers are approximate, but mostly about right. Paperback books, for example, were at about 35 cents until the 60s, then moved to 50 cents, then to 60-75 cents, then hit the dollar point around 1970, the $1.95 point a few years later, then jumped to $2.95, $3.95, etc., and are now around $5.95 for most bestseller paperbacks. Again, don't quibble too much. A detailed check of paperback collections showing publishing dates and prices would pin these numbers down.) So, what do we have now? Salaries are 2-4x higher, gold is at $375 an ounce, a new 3-br house averages about $100K (and is 2x that in many places), hamburger is at $2-3/pound, "Scietific American" sells for $3.95 or $4.95, and paperback books go for $4.95. Roughly, then, everything on this list is 3-4 times more expensive than it was in the late 60s. So, those LPs I was buying for $4-5 should now cost $12-20, correcting for inflation/price rises. And yet I am able to find many CDs I want for $8.67 (Tower Records: "3 for $25" sales). And they never wear out. And they usually have 60 minutes or more music on them--at least the CDs I buy do--, compared to the paltry 35-40 minutes on most LPs of the past. I can also make flawless copies of CDs I borrow onto DATs. (A friend of mine has gone a bit far with this, borrowing thousands of CDs from libraries...he now has 3900 CDs recorded digitally.) So, while I "wish" CD prices were even lower, I'm paying a lot less in "real dollars" for more music today than I was paying 15 years ago or 30 years ago. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: One of the biggest problems with freedom
by Charley Sparks 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I forget who said " The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" but it applies to threats both foreign and domestic. This includes the government. I trust no one absolutely. And I among many others have helped to pay for what freedom we have left. ( He said, in a movin' to Idaho kinda way ) cheers -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCXAwUBMffl2uJ+JZd/Y4yVAQHpFwQMC5f+guI+aH/mmOtnr50EVaKuhRHZjmtN 7/Q0MR2anBUuxb2b1eBzt/jzsQe1seh+yjGdF7PchDPU8cvo8d1zIRKNcYoo3uNZ 4DnGRt5aJncvOVtjA1MbbdPJppXzZvZwzbNaUsc/W6deE2Ug0zqhfVaBZ3/Qsw/f ZvImtor9X+MmNw== =NUjq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- At 08:23 AM 7/25/96 -0700, you wrote: > >What our biggest problem is, is that people want the >government to protect them from the oh so evil terrorists, >and they will willingingly have shackles put on them, >and rejoice when it is done. > >I know people who WANT the government to take away their >rights for security, and its a lot of people, and its >far too many people. > >Example: "I don't care if the government has my keys >for encryption. I don't do anything wrong, and if it >helps FBI enforce our just laws, I am all for it. Since >anyone who tries to get keys without legal means will end >up in Leavenworth for the rest of their life, there is >no problems with people getting access to those things." > >When I try to refute the logic: > >"I don't care about the bill of rights... I don't want to >have to split my family up on separate flights so there is >a chance of some of them arriving without dying. I want >the security of knowing I can fly okay without being >blown up, thank you very much. Signapore has little or >no crime since the people give up their rights for a common >good." > >Problem with freedom is people don't use it... and like >a limb, will wither and fall off if not used. > >Our basic item should be trying to get the masses to figure >out that freedom is important and should not be construed >as a gift from the government. > > >

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Re: Nerds, Dykes, Niggers, Dweebs, Fags, Bimbos, and Geeks
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:13 AM 7/27/96, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >Timothy C. May wrote: >> >> I just cringe when I meet young programmers at Cypherpunks who mumble "I'm >> just a computer geek." Fine, I write them off as geeks. >> > >OK, I am a foreigner. Can anyone explain me what the word "geek" means >and what are the origins of this word? I thought it was a cool word, >meaning someone orthogonal to the present world but being able to >change it. No, "geek" is not a "cool" word. "geek n. Slang. 1. An odd or ridiculous person. 2. A carnival performer whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live chicken. (Perhaps alteration of dialectical "geck," fool, from Low German "gek," from Middle Low German." (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition) And the full Oxford English Dictionary, Second Edition, Magnifying Glass Version, gives essentially the same definition, and cites an 1875 appearance in American slang. It mentions a "dumb sideshow stooge." Until recently, this was the only usage I knew of. One heard girls pointing at "geeky guys" and saying "What a geek!" Still think it's a "cool" word? How programmers came to adopt this as a badge of pride is beyond me. (I guess they don't especially care what the girls think, especially of course if they're one of the oh-so-popular "Geek Queers"--I don't even want to _think_ about what they bite the heads off of.) That foreigners are arriving in the U.S. and calling themselves "geeks," "dweebs," and "nerds" reminds me of those old cruel ploys of teaching foreigners a few words of English, e.g., "I am a very shitty person, fuck you very much!" Sad, real sad. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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ethernet encryption
by Stuart Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

hello all, i'm currently looking for a box or chipset that will encryption ethernet traffic at or near wire speed. does anyone know of such a thing? anyhelp will be greatly appreciated. i'm not currently subscribed to cypherpunks so send any replies to me at the email address below. thanks, ___________________________________________________ Stuart Johnson stuartj(a)packetengines.com Asic Design Engineer Phone : (509) 777-7208 Packet Engines Inc. leading the Gigabit Ethernet revolution ___________________________________________________ Key ID : B65F9B8D Key Fingerprint : F97D84A61C732CBAA1DA50A8D41963 A BIG PRIME : 2^3,021,377-1 ___________________________________________________

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Welcome to tmdgmet
by majordomo＠ayla.avnet.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-- Hello and welcome to the Tom Dawes-Gamble Met pages mailing list ================================================================ You are very welcome to use the pages and send me Email with requests for enhancements and new ideas. I will NOT reply to any EMAIL that asks for lost passwords lost user is or for users to be deleted. you can do all of that from your own browser. I hope that through this mailing list I can reduce the work I have to do to help people. It is not currently a moderated list but only because I have not got the time to set up moderation. The main purpose of the mailing list is so that I can relay information to you about the changes and plans for the pages. Please don't unsubscribe from the mailing list unless you are changing your account or service provider. If your address is not in the mailing list then your user id will be taken out of the register and you will not be able to access the pages. You must have registered correctly to get this message. Correct registration meerly means that you choose a user name that no one else has and that you were able to key the same password twice. I have three major problem areas. 1) Compuserve users. For some reason they seem to have more problems than anyone else. Please read the User Guide for more information about this. 2) Forgotten user-ids and passwords. If you have problems in this area then again the user guide is the place to look. 3) Can you get weather for or there is no weather for XXXXXX. There can be several reasons for this. If you find that other stations have more recent weather then may be the station you are looking for has a problem. If you never see weather for the station then most likely we don't get weather for that station. If nowhere has up to date weather then may be there is a problem with the feed you can be sure that AVnet and/or Skytrak already know about the problem. I put most of the documentation in the web pages. So I beg you to look there first. If you really are stuck then by all means send me email. I but the thing to remember is that 2500 people have registered and most of them don't have problems. I will update the pages when there are significant changes. So if you have not read the User Guide for a while it may be worth a visit. I am currently restructuring the layout of the weather pages layout so you should go to the weather home page if you get an error trying to load a page. Please remember that I do the work for this page in my on time. I do not get paid for the work other than the by the "Thank You" Email and the Article that appeared in Flyer. The mailing list addresses are as follows. 1. tmdgmet(a)avnet.co.uk 2. tmdgmet-request(a)avnet.co.uk All mail addressed to tmdgmet(a)avnet.co.uk will be sent to all the "subscribers". You are now subscribed to the list. Mail addressed to tmdgmet-request(a)avnet.co.uk is specifically intended to allow you to command the mail system to do something. Here's how: 1. Address a message to tmdgmet-request(a)avnet.co.uk 2. Ignore the subject line in your mail program 3. in the body of the message enter either: subscribe tmdgmet (to subscribe to the tmdgmet) unsubscribe tmdgmet (to stop receiving the tmdgmet) help tmdgmet (to get a fuller explanation of these and other commands) To post new messages to everyone on the list, just send them to :- tmdgmet(a)avnet.co.uk Best regards, Tom. -- Tom Dawes-Gamble Email: tmdg(a)avnet.co.uk G-ATAG is a Jodel DR1050 /Bent Wings are Best */

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Re: Ross Anderson's Eternity Service
by P. J. Ponder 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In response to Hal's questions... I think the Eternity Service, as I understand the idea (altho I haven't read the paper yet), is valuable to society. In some countries, the government may try to suppress views and information unpopular to them and the ES could help make the information available. Sort of like Radio Free Internet. This one use - helping people who may be living under repressive governments get access to more information - would make the service valuable. There is certainly a large risk to intellectual property holders, if people used such a service to distribute copies of software, music, videos, or whatever, to avoid paying royalties and etc. -- pj re the DES hack, has anyone asked Damien when the researchers go on vacation? ;^)

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