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A case for 2560 bit keys
by David F. Ogren 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Mon Jul 08 23:06:11 1996 Here is a few thoughts on RSA key sizes. There is nothing new or revolutionary herein, but I think it does provide a good case for using large RSA keysizes. Traditionally, we examine the threat model and determine the approximate ability of the attacker to factor secret keys. Then a keylength is selected that exceeds the attackers ability to factor in a reasonable amount of time. For example, if we assume that the NSA can factor any number with the speed of the special number sieve, and has 10^9 mips of computing power (doubling every 1.5 years) we can make the following estimations:_1_ Using these assumptions, the NSA could crack a 1024 bit key in ~11 days, a 1536 bit key in 10 years and a 2048 bit key in 26 years. _2_ Note that this would require the full resources of the NSA, however. Thus, even the mighty resources of the NSA could only crack 42 1024 bit keys in 1996 (including Moore's law). _3_, _4_ Similarly, a large corporation with 10^7 mips in computing power (and the same super-efficient factoring algorithm) could crack a 1024 bit key in 2 years, a 1536 bit key in 20 years, and a 2048 bit key in 36 years. My interpretation of these results: 1024 bit is probably safe for most reasonable threat models. Only individuals with extremely high threat models should be concerned about 1024 bit keys in 1996. Even those with extremely high threat models should be satisfied with 1536 bit keys. Despite the above, there are convincing arguments for longer RSA keys. Instead of asking "Why should we have longer keys?", perhaps we should be asking "Why _shouldn't_ we have longer keys?" In a hybrid cryptosystem such as PGP, very little of the computational process is consumed by RSA encryption. Only a tiny fraction of the message is RSA encrypted (the session key), and thus the time-critical operation is the symmetric crypto system (IDEA for PGP). As an experiment generate a 2047 bit PGP key and a 512 bit PGP key. Encrypt a file (preferably of a reasonable size) using both keys. Depending on the computer you are using, the time difference between the two keys will be a matter of few seconds or even a fraction of a second. And so we have to ask ourselves, why _not_ use a 2047+ bit key. It has greater longevity and greater security. Why not be overcautious when the cost is so small? It seems foolish that we use RSA keys that are less secure than our IDEA session keys. Our RSA keys are much more valuable than our session keys. I will use my RSA key to encode hundreds of messages. Each session key I will use only once. An attacker who learns one of my IDEA session keys can decrypt only that message. An attacker who learns my RSA key can decrypt any of my messages, past or present. (He can also impersonate my signature, but that's another discussion entirely.) If I send one message weekly that my attacker is interested in, and change my RSA key every two years, my RSA key is at least 104 times more valuable than any individual key. Does it not make sense that the RSA key should ideally be 104 times more difficult to crack? If increasing the RSA keylength was overly cumbersome to the process then designing the RSA keylength to meet minimum acceptable standards could be understood. But since increased RSA keylengths are cheap in terms of computing power, would it not be better to pick RSA keylengths that are more secure than the session keys? And thus, 2560 bit keys are not unreasonable. They are not significantly slower to use (most of PGP's time is spent IDEA encrypting), and yet are effectively invulnerable. By "invulnerable" I mean that any attacker capable of cracking your RSA key would have an easier time hacking your individual IDEA session keys, and would never have any need to hack the RSA key itself. And if you have threat models this severe you are a) hopelessly paranoid, b) SOL. Footnotes: _1_ These approximations of factoring difficulties and the computing resources are taken directly from Applied Cryptography by Bruce Schneier, page 161. _2_ Taking into account Moore's law, the amount of processing power spent during a period of time is the integral of Power * 2^(t/1.5)dt (from 0 to x) = Power * 1.5 / (ln 2) 2 ^(t/1.5) (also evaluated from 0 to x). Which is approximately equal to Power * 2.164 * (2^(x/1.5) - 1). Thus in three years a corporation starting with 10^7 mips could produce 10^7 * 2.164 * (2^(3/1.5)-1) = 6.492 * 10^7 mips-years. _3_ Any attempt to determine the computing power and cryptanalysis power of the NSA should be taken with a grain of salt. There are several very critical and arbitrary assumptions made in order to obtain these numbers. _4_ Additionally, any attempt to discern the future of cryptanalysis should also be taken with a grain of salt. Who can tell what computers will like be in ten years? - -- David F. Ogren | ogren(a)concentric.net | "A man without religion is like a fish PGP Key ID: 0x6458EB29 | without a bicycle" - ------------------------------|---------------------------------------- Don't know what PGP is? | Need my public key? It's available Send a message to me with the | by server or by sending me a message subject GETPGPINFO | with the subject GETPGPKEY -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMeHMpOSLhCBkWOspAQH4gwf+NiP184ve2W06ClO92uEfjbaHpn3l9zAz 1ckt8PE8kMxkq8etcq/NM/IZ3QuTIBbeOr4ey6dIptQafmarb7sSMAx0KGgPALp8 v6a77as2RUCaJYjjviYlXh/0OIt+c7c+w9HbVZCmgpru/VQjT7++6eAa1f4K+225 K12wEX2TXou4s8+qYVUAT3B0iesuq/Z2iBzO942+v3u7rkCHLMghYlLIXR+SP43l E15IQRez5nHkMb7VB9kL8ku/aDlXfKjURDQji8LBm+V+3i/9tcR/9+4EjKAqo1nB qnXCFBKrzWRev4bbI9tbVnTc83VWeJRXGZxlpXhzc40kov7GbrT9Bg== =B0h0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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RE: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children
by blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Perry E. Metzger I suppose you don't understand what it might be like for someone to be unable to do their work no matter how heavy the threat against them if they don't, and no matter how easy it is. There are people out there who can't get themselves to pay a phone bill or throw out the newspapers for months on end -- they just can't get themselves to dance around into the task no matter how hard they try, no matter how great the threat (job loss, etc) to them is. ...................................................................... Drugs create a picture of coercion - where the mind is coerced into a state arrived at not by thoughtful consideration, but by round-about ways of achieving the desired result. This is what makes some people wary of them, but make them appealing to others who find this very feature attractive - that they can get results without having to think about it. There are times when people have been totally unmotivated to take care of themselves or the mundane matters in life because they were not involved in the pursuits which were of true value to them, and life "lost its meaning". Putting one's priorities into perspective can do a lot towards feeling motivated to attend to life's minor contingencies, while elevating the lesser items to the top of the hierarchy can totally dissipitate one's energies and interest. What if someone was working at a "practical" kind of job, living the kind of life prescribed by someone else, when what they really wanted to do was something related to fine art or other field, living a different kind of "life-style"? This could be so depressing that subconsciously they would finally rebel from supporting that false existence, and find themselves with no energy to move. Maybe Ritalin could make them forgot their true interest which was lying dormant, pushed away by who-knows-what kind of arguments against it, and help them to start paying attention again to those mundane, irrelevant aspects of existence. Maybe it could help them forget the *point* of their existence and they could attend to ordinary things which are easily understood and accomplished without too much creative energy. Maybe Ritalin could help force them to pay attention, in spite of the protest from their submerged psychology. Maybe. In taking 'beneficial' drugs there's always a question of whether someone's mind is being helped into awareness or overpowered into submission, even if the results seem to be acceptable to everyone. You're right, Perry, that no one should be making that decision for others. I do think, though, that achieving self-command by a conscious knowledge of what is right for one's nature is actually the most beneficial (and less controversial). (But I wonder how this would apply to crypto. Hmmmmmmm - only in reference to those evil old men in the govmt who......might allow it to be prescribed indiscriminately.) .. Blanc

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Re: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children
by JR＠ns.cnb.uam.es 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Perry E. Metzger" <perry(a)piermont.com> says: >Timothy C. May writes: >> At 1:14 PM 7/7/96, Simon Spero wrote: >> >On Sat, 6 Jul 1996, Timothy C. May wrote: >> >> >> >> When the mother (a single mother, as this is California) drops her son off >> >> with my friend (also single, of course), she includes several "Ritalin" >> >> capsules with instructions on how to dose her son with this >> >> depressant/behavior modification drug. >> > >> >Er... Tim... Ritalin is an amphetamine. >> >> Whatever. It acts as a calmant/tranquilizer/depressant on many. > >Only those who have ADD, which you claim doesn't exist. > >> (As with many drugs, there are apparently paradoxical effects. Alcohol is a >> downer for some, and upper for others.) > >Alcohol is a CNS depressant for all. Lowering inhibitions tends to >make people relax and "party", but it doesn't have particularly >paradoxical effects. > >.pm > Sorry, but that's wrong. There must be some understanding of what's actually going on. Brain is not just a simple linear device. It's complex. And that goes to Tim's original point: Society is made by humans with brains that are complex but which try to use simple models to understand reality. Let me show with your own example. Alcohol *is* a depressant. But it doesn't act equally on all the CNS. It acts faster on one part of it whose role is to depress all the rest of the CNS. So, first alcohol depresses a depressor and therefore acts as a stimulant. If you maintain your levels of alcohol there the rest of your brain will be above its threshold and keep stimulated. Only if you pass that threshold the rest of the brain will be depressed. That's what alcohol drinking cultures like mine call "knowing how to drink". But then we don't know about taking cocaine (like some centroamerican cultures do) for instance. Same happens when you take other drugs (in their own context). It's only when you simplify or make a generalization that it gets dangerous. And same goes for society. If you have a society that teachs people how to drink you'll have less problems than one that doesn't. Or that teachs how to eat coca leaves avoiding the pure drug. Or that teaches you that curare is OK eaten -as it is- but letal in the blood (which allows survival for many tribes). That's were Tim's argument comes into cypherpunkish arena. If you teach people that it is easier to calm down hyperactive people, or solve all problems by increasing mind control and surveillance you can't complain of a police state. OTOH if you can teach people were to stop (as with alcohol) and that simple models just don't work you'll be on the road to a better system. I agree there is people that can benefit from drugs. But being a MD PhD myself too, I also know that the amount that really needs them is a minuscule proportion. Most times it is just a convenience for doctors, family, fathers or society. Though good doctors agree it would be better if they could avoid the drugs at all in most cases of mental disease. Same happens with surveillance: we benefit from some control to stop those few, exceptional, deep criminals that are better stopped in advance, but we don't really need as much as we have. There are better solutions, but it's far more convenient for power-holders to increase surveillance than to really address the underlying problems. But, IMHO, as long as we keep allowing many people to use simple and "convenience" models to quickly fix symptomps instead of addressing the real problem (like, e.g. making a greater effort in the education of their children), we are stating the basis for a future, more restrictive, controlling and "convenience" system. We need both, to educate people on a more responsible course of action, and develop tools to stop or make more difficult or less convenient the easy and fast solution of increasing surveillance instead of addressing the underlying problem. And that's where cryptography comes to help equate the balance and increases presure on power-holders into worrying more by decreasing the convenience of surveillance. That is, all in my most very humble opinion. jr

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Re: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children
by William Knowles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On July 8th, 1996 Herr Doctor Duvos wrote: >Medicating a disease is fine. Recreational uses of relatively >harmless intoxicants and are also fine. It is the inappropriate >use of strong medicines with serious side effects by clueless >people for vague criteria like "reaching his or her potential" >that I have a problem with. I have a problem with people like Mike Duvos who think that folks like myself and others on this list with ADD use having ADD as a crutch for being fidgety, not getting their work done on time, or worst yet, Fired. I wish people like Mr. Duvos could walk a mile in my shoes before making off the cuff remarks, I wish I could get jobs done on time, I wish that I could finish one project before starting three more! My office looks like someone tossed a hand grenade in it, Proposals to the left, Job quotes to the right, jobs is various states of completion, Lost jobs to my inattentivness to my clients, Lost good clients because of having ADD and not knowing it! I wish I would have known about ADD eariler than now, I might not have been the complete fuck-up that I was in school, and worst than that, The nearly ten years after high school. One of my wishes did come true, and that was finding out that I do have ADD. Ritalin has been a godsend, I am able to dialin when I have to. Ritalin is not the only drug for treating ADD, Prozac works for some. There are times when I need the boundless energy to find time to be creative and I stop taking my meds, but its only for short periods, I remember all too well what I was like without knowing what the problem was with work, love, and life in general. Below is a list of famous people with Attention Deficit Disorders and/or Learning Disorders, and I'd be willing to bet that Perry Metzger either has, or knows someone with ADD. Albert Einstein, Galileo, Mozart, Wright Brothers, Leonardo da Vinci, Bruce Jenner, Tom Cruise, Charles Schwab, Henry Winkler, Danny Glover, Walt Disney, John Lennon, Winston Churchill, Henry Ford, Stephen Hawkings, Jules Verne, Alexander Graham Bell, Woodrow Wilson, Hans Christian Anderson,Beavis, Nelson Rockefeller, Thomas Edison, Gen. George Patton, Agatha Christie, John F. Kennedy, Whoopi Goldberg, Rodin, Thomas Thoreau, David H. Murdock, Dustin Hoffman, Pete Rose, Russell White, Jason Kidd, Russell Varian, Robin Williams, Louis Pasteur, Werner von Braun, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Robert Kennedy, alberto Tnmba Prince Charles, Gen. Westmoreland, Eddie Rickenbacker, Gregory Boyington, Harry Belafonte, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Steve McQueen, George C. Scott, Tom Smothers, Lindsay Wagner, George Bernard Shaw, Beethoven, Carl Lewis, Jackie Stewart, "Magic" Johnson, Weyerhauser family, Wrigley, John Corcoran. One can only wonder how much more great some of the people on this list would be today if they knew ADD back then. William Knowles erehwon(a)c2.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMeI+wgURbnwsNLz5AQHM6AP/Zln3eu50jKdhkER4Go3uBp0a4zlVUYti pW71AHLR8VydFaMM7iJFhYmv7vgFeuA1cAo27Hq1Pb8LZ/uucPRACKI8ku/XsVHh 9wdPsEKXMo0pHftnVHmuFb3dVtAA9jYKfGw3SwpktNkACQMvGHU2Z5+DkbetvSZm xrMSjCpxlvM= =ucXF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- William Knowles <erehwon(a)c2.org> PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 C4 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key --

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RE: What remains to be done.
by jfricker＠vertexgroup.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:32 AM 7/9/96 +0100, Andy Brown wrote: >On 09 July 1996 02:04, John F. Fricker[SMTP:jfricker@vertexgroup.com] wrote: > >> One of these days Microsoft will officially release NT's IFS SDK. A few >> "preliminary" and incomplete copies of a 1993 beta release do float around >> but for a mere $50K there's a company that will sell you the complete source >> for an IFS. It's a crime that Microsoft hasn't shipped this SDK yet as the >> Installable File System is one of the great powers of NT. > >You can do this with the existing device driver kit since they supply the >entire source code to the AT hard disk driver. I took a look and decided >that it would be too much work for me alone. They also seem to suggest that >you can write "filters" that extend the capability of existing drivers. > >> So, if someone is interested in coughing up the $50K I know a couple NT >> programmers just chomping at the bit to build cool IFS's like PGPDrive, etc. > >I'm one of them, but this low level device driver stuff makes me shudder! > > >- Andy > > That's why the IFS SDK is so important. Writing device drivers is one thing and nasty at that but the IFS is higher level and exactly what is needed to create a PGPDrive that could exist on scsi, ide, tape, network drives, floppies, cd-roms, etc. A device driver implementation would be married to a particular controller type. --j

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Re: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children
by gdunn＠sciborg.uwaterloo.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 2:32 96.7.9 -0700, William Knowles wrote: >Below is a list of famous people with Attention Deficit Disorders >and/or Learning Disorders, and I'd be willing to bet that Perry Metzger >either has, or knows someone with ADD. > >Albert Einstein, Galileo, Mozart, Wright Brothers, Leonardo da Vinci, >Bruce Jenner, Tom Cruise, Charles Schwab, Henry Winkler, Danny Glover, >Walt Disney, John Lennon, Winston Churchill, Henry Ford, >Stephen Hawkings, Jules Verne, Alexander Graham Bell, Woodrow Wilson, >Hans Christian Anderson,Beavis, Nelson Rockefeller, Thomas Edison, >Gen. George Patton, Agatha Christie, John F. Kennedy, Whoopi Goldberg, >Rodin, Thomas Thoreau, David H. Murdock, Dustin Hoffman, Pete Rose, >Russell White, Jason Kidd, Russell Varian, Robin Williams, Louis Pasteur, >Werner von Braun, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Robert Kennedy, alberto Tnmba >Prince Charles, Gen. Westmoreland, Eddie Rickenbacker, Gregory Boyington, >Harry Belafonte, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Steve McQueen, George C. Scott, >Tom Smothers, Lindsay Wagner, George Bernard Shaw, Beethoven, Carl Lewis, >Jackie Stewart, "Magic" Johnson, Weyerhauser family, Wrigley, John Corcoran. > >One can only wonder how much more great some of the people on this list would >be today if they knew ADD back then. > > >William Knowles >erehwon(a)c2.org OTOH, one could argue that their lack of attention to daily matters was what allowed them to be 'great' in the first place. Picture a Mozart on Ritalin. Boss - "Hey, Wolfgang, thanks for getting that presentation together so quick, it really impressed our client. And that was a really snappy jingle you wrote for the opening slide show, too ..." So, he's a 'great' worker at the office, and undoubtably undergoes nowhere near the mental stress he would off Ritalin. But I cannot, for the life of me, imagine _this_ man writing the music that the non-medicated Mozart did. So should the medication you take be decided by the area in which you want to be successful ? (or even better, vice versa: Personality engineering, here we come). Regards, Graham Dunn --- No PGP signature. Who would _want_ to impersonate me ?

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Re: Transforming variable- to fixed-length keys
by pgut001＠cs.auckland.ac.nz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>For iteration-0, CFB (or some other feedback mode)-encrypt the passphrase from >the input buffer to the output buffer (assuming the library doesn't require >that the plaintext and ciphertext be in the same buffer) This doesn't work because the input and output buffer will almost always be of different lengths. >Questions: Are you using the previous chaining-variables/hash for each >successive chunk? No. Each chunk is a new hash with <whatever>, where <whatever> defaults to SHA1. Since (for SHA1) 64 bytes of input affect each 20 bytes of output, I don't think there's much need for chaining. I'm trying to keep the specification as simple and easy to check as possible (one of the problems with the PGP data management was that it was rather complex and hard to follow. I suspect it would be difficult to implement a compatible version going only from a written specification). >How do you pad passphrases that are smaller than the minimum input for a hash >function? The input wraps, just like the output, so for example the letter "a" would be hashed as: <length>a<length>a<length>a<length>a<length>a<length>a[...] >Hash the user's input, prepended with a 0x00. Use this for the first 0..160 >bits of key. If more than 160 bits is needed, write over the 0x00 with 0x01. >Hash again. This is much like your solution, but no wrapping. Note there is no >problem truncating hash output. That's another possibility. The only thing here is that you're only changing one byte for each pass, and I'm not sure if this is healthy. I'll see what the sci.crypt crowd (those who've survived the spamming) has to say about this - it may actually be stronger than my increment-by-one method if you're worried about related-key cryptanalysis. Peter.

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CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability
by stevenw＠best.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Subject: CERT Advisory CA-96.13 - Alien/OS Vulnerability From: CERT Bulletin <cert-advisory(a)cert.org> Newsgroups: comp.security.announce, rec.humor ============================================================================= CERT(sm) Advisory CA-96.13 July 4, 1996 Topic: ID4 virus, Alien/OS Vulnerability - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CERT Coordination Center has received reports of weaknesses in Alien/OS that can allow species with primitive information sciences technology to initiate denial-of-service attacks against MotherShip(tm) hosts. One report of exploitation of this bug has been received. When attempting takeover of planets inhabited by such races, a trojan horse attack is possible that permits local access to the MotherShip host, enabling the implantation of executable code with full root access to mission-critical security features of the operating system. The vulnerability exists in versions of EvilAliens' Alien/OS 34762.12.1 or later, and all versions of Microsoft's Windows/95. CERT advises against initiating further planet takeover actions until patches are available from these vendors. If planet takeover is absolutely necessary, CERT advises that affected sites apply the workarounds as specified below. As we receive additional information relating to this advisory, we will place it in ftp://info.cert.org/pub/cert_advisories/CA-96.13.README We encourage you to check our README files regularly for updates on advisories that relate to your site. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- I. Description Alien/OS contains a security vulnerability, which strangely enough can be exploited by a primitive race running Windows/95. Although Alien/OS has been extensively field tested over millions of years by EvilAliens, Inc., the bug was only recently discovered during a routine invasion of a backwater planet. EvilAliens notes that the operating system had never before been tested against a race with "such a kick-ass president." The vulnerability allows the insertion of executable code with root access to key security features of the operating system. In particular, such code can disable the NiftyGreenShield (tm) subsystem, allowing child processes to be terminated by unauthorized users. Additionally, Alien/OS networking protocols can provide a low-bandwidth covert timing channel to a determined attacker. II. Impact Non-privileged primitive users can cause the total destruction of your entire invasion fleet and gain unauthorized access to files. III. Solution EvilAliens has supplied a workaround and a patch, as follows: A. Workaround To prevent unauthorized insertion of executables, install a firewall to selectively vaporize incoming packets that do not contain valid aliens. Also, disable the "Java" option in Netscape. To eliminate the covert timing channel, remove untrusted hosts from routing tables. As tempting as it is, do not use target species' own satellites against them. B. Patch As root, install the "evil" package from the distribution tape. (Optionally) save a copy of the existing /usr/bin/sendmail and modify its permission to prevent misuse. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The CERT Coordination Center thanks Jeff Goldblum and Fjkxdtssss for providing information for this advisory. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you believe that your system has been compromised, contact the CERT Coordination Center or your representative in the Forum of Incident Response and Security Teams (FIRST). We strongly urge you to encrypt any sensitive information you send by email. The CERT Coordination Center can support a shared DES key and PGP. Contact the CERT staff for more information. Location of CERT PGP key ftp://info.cert.org/pub/CERT_PGP.key CERT Contact Information - ------------------------ Email cert(a)cert.org Phone +1 412-268-7090 (24-hour hotline) CERT personnel answer 8:30-5:00 p.m. EST (GMT-5)/EDT(GMT-4), and are on call for emergencies during other hours. Fax +1 412-268-6989 Postal address CERT Coordination Center Software Engineering Institute Carnegie Mellon University Pittsburgh PA 15213-3890 USA CERT publications, information about FIRST representatives, and other security-related information are available for anonymous FTP from http://www.cert.org/ ftp://info.cert.org/pub/ CERT advisories and bulletins are also posted on the USENET newsgroup comp.security.announce To be added to our mailing list for CERT advisories and bulletins, send your email address to cert-advisory-request(a)cert.org Copyright 1996 Carnegie Mellon University This material may be reproduced and distributed without permission provided it is used for noncommercial purposes and the copyright statement is included. CERT is a service mark of Carnegie Mellon University. -- Moderators accept or reject articles based solely on the criteria posted in the Frequently Asked Questions. Article content is the responsibility of the submittor. Submit articles to ahbou-sub(a)acpub.duke.edu. To write to the moderators, send mail to ahbou-mod(a)acpub.duke.edu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Weller | Technology (n): | | A substitute for adulthood. stevenw(a)best.com | Popular with middle-aged men.

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Re: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children
by JR＠ns.cnb.uam.es 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>One can only wonder how much more great some of the people on this list would >be today if they knew ADD back then. > That a fallacy. First, there's no way to know what they suffered if anything at all. Second, there's no way to know what would have happened. Third, there's what they themselves said. I know of many people who has your same signs. Hey you should see *my* office. And you should have seen it when I could devote myself to interesting things instead of XXXX(whateverI don't like) crap. Someone said about a kid not concentrating on grammar. Hell, I couldn't stand half of my professors in class, though I would perfectly listen to the same subject with other people. I don't know about you and don't pretend to tell you anything. But there are lots of cases in which the problem is *on the other side* (society, teachers, work, parents, priests, erroneous expectatives). I wonder how can we know from the external manifestations that those people were ADD and not just brilliant guys with dull teachers. As for those people you mentioned. Maybe if they had prozac they would have been perfect, quiet and compliant citizens, concentrated on what the power-that-be asked them to do. Think of Einstein happily working for Hitler, not worried about other themes (like ethical implications for instance). Thing is, it's very easy to keep everybody uniform. Easier than giving equal opportunities to less-good workers or allowing one to attempt many projects lest one succeeds and changes the stablishment! Let's make everyone into a uniform clone, and those who can't be made -say Down syndrome people- be exterminated. Let's enterprising people be forced into non-creative jobs, and if they don't like, be given drugs. Yeah! Let's monitor what everybody says, detect those guys who spend too much time at work reading cypherpunks or worrying about politics (which is not their job) and control them. Let's tap all their conversa- tions and force them to fit our idea of a uniform world of mediocre wits who just work perfectly in what we tell them and never question anything. I also wonder how those people you mentioned would have been allowed to do such great discoveries and destroy the grounds of their societies under the society we are heading to. "The World turning around the Sun? C'mon! Everybody knows it is flat and the Center of the Universe. That Galileo guy is obviously sick. Let's calm him down with some drugs so he can concentrate on Theology as it should well be"... Sorry, I think we need unfitted people, feeling unhappy about the society to make it evolve. jr

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Re: [RANT] Giving Mind Control Drugs to Children
by Rick Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim writes more about Ritalin: >From what I've read--and I'm no expert, having long had essentially the >_opposite_ of "attention deficit disorder," assuming it really even >exists!--most children getting Ritalin are just being sedated. Behavior >control in its purest form. While the kids stop their wandering attention >and constant physical motions, it's because they're in a mental fog, just >one step away from drooling. (The 8-year-old friend of my friend's son is >so zoned out he can't play video games well at all...until the drugs wear >off.) That's very interesting, especially the part about video games. It sounds like overdosing to me. My wife says that a Ritalin overdose can also affect your heart rate and ability to sleep. Regarding video games, we went through some elaborate assessment process before Alex ended up on Ritalin. The school people did an assessment declaring he wasn't "learning disabled" but may have ADHD. Then he saw a behavioral psychologist for a few hours of observation, yielding the diagnosis. Lastly a different psychologist measured his behavior using some computer based game/test. The actual dosage was calibrated according to his effectiveness on the game/test, which involved memory, coordination, and ability to concentrate on something fundamentally boring. The test was performed 3 times to compare his performance before and after dosage. The point of all this is that there are other ways of using Ritalin. I don't think I'd tolerate its use on Alex if I didn't trust my wife. She has a much better background in such things than I, as well as a family doctor's experience with seeing the results of drug abuse. >>BarelyObCrypto: ADD is more about lack of attention *control* than lack of >>attention itself. Hyperfocus is also a trait of ADHD, and computers tend to >>cause hyperfocus for a lot of ADDers. >BTW, I saw a comment that Bill Gates is almost certainly an ADD person...or >maybe the comment was that he is borderline autistic? This matches my own experiences with ADHD. That's the thing about the raw phenomenon and its overall lifestyle effect: you either find your niche and do OK, or you get sidelined. Rick.

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