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RE: Workers Paradise. /Political rant.
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:18 AM 9/16/96 EST, jbugden(a)smtplink.alis.ca wrote: >Two questions, two observations: >Do you have health insurance? >Do you have life insurance? > >I have commented on your line of reasoning before and and it still seems to me >that an important part of the discussion is missed. Specifically, that anyone >can "save for a rainy day" and still not be able to provide for events that can >always happen: Heart attack, stroke, car accident, pinched nerve that leaves you >in excruciating pain and unable to work for several years. However, one can also prepare in the traditional way by having friends and family. If you have same, you will always have enough to eat and someone to take care of you (and also to kick you in the ass when you need it. >I don't think that a reasonable person would argue that medical insurance should >be outlawed because everyone should take care of their own needs. A social >safety net is simply a form of health and life insurance. Statistical arbitrage >if you will. By spreading the risk you minimize the cost. Somewhat actuarily unsound however. If "the welfare" or SS were private charities or insurance schemes, their management would be in prison for self-dealing and fraud because of the high overhead of welfare and the Ponzi scheme nature of SS. Note too the recent article in the Economist about how European firms are raising capital in the UK and the US because it is available there in private pension savings while European government retirement systems suck loads of capital out of the system leaving nothing but massive government debts. DCF

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Re: 56 kbps modems
by azur＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>> People who seemed to know used to say that 'the Shannon limit' >>> set an absolute upper limit around 40 kbps. Has Shannon been >>> proven wrong, or what? >>Well, it all depends on the signal-to-noise ratio. Also, if the noise is >>not white gaussian the situation can be even better. > >Or it can be worse. Almost all voice traffic in the US these days, >either once it gets to your local telephone wire center or maybe before, >is carried on T1 digital connections, which use 64kbps digital voice - >it's sampled at 8000 samples/second, A/D converted using a non-linear >8-bit scale called mu-law (or A-law for Europe), and (for the most common >framing format) has a signalling channel stego'd onto the LSB of every 6th >byte. >If you knew which the "robbed bit" was, you could get 63 kbps of digital data, >but since you don't, digital signals are limited to 56kbps since they >can't trust any of the low bits (analog doesn't lose much from this.) > Couldn't you just 'assume' you knew which bit was 'robbed' and test to see the result? If you were wrong, couldn't you advance/retard your clocking and via a process of elimination sync with the 'robbed bit? --Steve PGP Fingerprint: FE 90 1A 95 9D EA 8D 61 81 2E CC A9 A4 4A FB A9 --------------------------------------------------------------------- Snoop Daty Data | Internet: azur(a)netcom.com Grinder | Voice: 1-702-655-2877 Sacred Cow Meat Co. | Fax: 1-702-658-2673 7075 W. Gowan Road, #2148 | Las Vegas, NV 89129 | --------------------------------------------------------------------- Just say NO to perscription DRUGS.

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Re: Gaining trust in OCO crypto code
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I agree with Norm's points. At 6:59 PM 9/16/96 -0700, Norman Hardy wrote: >At 3:06 PM 9/12/96, Bill Frantz wrote: >.... >>(2) Key generation. There are published ways to encode an RSA secret key >>in the corresponding RSA public key. A key generation algorithm which only >>uses 32 bits of the random number would be hard to detect, but easy to >>break by one who knew its secret. You have to be able to examine in detail >>how keys are generated. > >Actually if you generate 100,000 RSA keys with the algorithm the birthday >effect says that >you will have some collisions. Of course even 100,000 key generations takes >a long time. This statement was not as clear as I wish I had been. The trap door in RSA key generation is sufficient to require careful examination of the source for any RSA key (unless you can take the out Norm suggests as): >If random number generation is specified not to be integral to RSA key >generation, then two or more untrusted programs, from mutually hostile >sources, can generate your RSA key if they yield the same output from the >same input. In paranoia situations I would rather trust my keyboard random >than an algorithm chosen by my enemy. When I started discussing using only 32 bits of the random number, I was thinking of random session keys such as PGP generates for its IDEA cypher. I agree you could detect a small number bits being used to generate these keys by a birthday attack. However, most systems make sure these keys are never revealed outside the system (to preserve the secrecy of the messages). It is not easy to do a birthday audit of e.g. PGP session keys. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | "Cave softly, cave safely, | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | and cave with duct tape." | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | - Marianne Russo | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

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Re: Snake Oil FAQ 0.4 [comments appreciated]
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 2:06 AM 9/17/96, The Deviant wrote: >Not to mention, the basic flaw of OTP.. if you have the only copy of the >key, and the key is non-repetitive, how do you send the key to another >person without being just as insecure as not encrypting it in the first >place... almost any OTP claims are gonna be snake oil. Not quite. Many cryptographic messages have a *time value*. The canonical example is "Attack at dawn." A one-time pad carried by a unit out onto the battlefield is eminently valuable for receiving such time-critical messages. Many other examples abound: embassies receiving instructions from the home country, travelling businessmen exchanging messages with the office, Air Force One receiving encrypted transmissions from NORAD, and so on. This is why OTPs are still in use by the military, embassies, etc. Granted, asymmetric key systems have various advantages, discussed here all the time, but to say almost any OTP claims are snake oil is untrue. (Many claims about OTPs _are_ of course snake oil, but usually in that they are not true OTPs in the Shannon sense.) --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: 56 kbps modems
by Remo Pini 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Tue Sep 17 08:09:26 1996 > > > > On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Jay Gairson wrote: > > > Speaking of ISDN, how many people, can afford to have a personal ISDN > > line in there house? And then afford to connect to something/someone > > else on a next to permanent basis monthly? > > No problem here. My ISDN bill is a small fraction of my regular phone > bill. > In Switzerland you pay 25 CHF/month for a normal phoneline and 50 CHF/month for an ISDN line (but you get two channels), so basically here it doesn't matter, which technologie you choose. (BTW, usage charge - by the seconds - is the same for both) :) Remo Pini - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp(a)rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMj5AlxFhy5sz+bTpAQF2KQgAgzAfEFb/NDW+J1Ub77CsOhCA578hiGFJ +0i2/yQApQFh4nztiAZoa2VeRlJV6TFcueF4wrGLmsZzw1j+jgo6SvW4ZRqZzfjC Ob+1wF2SKskEWKoRkAz/+u+RcEAGiQObgTu4VbM59LSYMfX/oba9OurwClhqhg0y /twMQ1BLUbFLqhZrruLO4rM1H2px+2FhWd6CP2jwEkiC/ghLPzGFPwcMoS1nSAfQ PGCVbajLaLJalD31FjFT1Z48sA+waBkdCISe8DTx2LQfKq+WK2A1CRyNOlNZUZdj ReaFBvciSTc8Eq01RmFZFOwoPvw7uxi8VpqE/xEBvq6v6UxrBF8xPQ== =BEhi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: 56 kbps modems
by Remo Pini 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: erp(a)digiforest.com, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Tue Sep 17 08:20:07 1996 Argh, criticism!!!!! :-0 > > 3. NO transmission over a standard phoneline can have more than 3100 > > baud, because the frequency of anything transmitted over that line is > > band limited to 300hz - 3400hz. (If you have ISDN it's not relevant > > anyway, since you are fixed with 8000hz or 64000 bps->in europe :), > > 56000 bps in usa) > > Personally, by saying that no transmission on a standard phoneline can > have more than 3100 baud, is a statement saying that technology and > science, shall never advance, to a point where things are possible. > If you remember right, just 10 or so years ago, we stated that 2400 baud > was the highest possible baud, and we would never go over. My modem, > running on a standard phone line, is a 28.8 USRobotics modem, with > the software, and hardware upgrades to a 3400 baud, I get on an average > day anywhere from 3500 to 3600 baud for send/receive. On a bad day, I > only get 3100 to 3200. SO I would say, that my phone lines, are cleaner > than most eh? And Yes, I am in the US. > Speaking of ISDN, how many people, can afford to have a personal ISDN > line in there house? And then afford to connect to something/someone > else on a next to permanent basis monthly? Well, if your modems says to "hell with the switch", you can do a lot of things with frequencies. And since the filters in the switch are not that accurate, you *might* get away with 3400 hz, which I doubt. Now if your phonecompany for what reason ever supports more bandwidth, thats good for you, but try to get your 3600 baud = 3600 hz modem to be accepted by the FCC will pose a problem, since it states in the regulations, that a modem has to stick to the 300-3400 hz band limits. > > 4. Most modern transmission schemes work with multiple bits per baud. > > I.e. you transmit 10 bits in one baud if you have a 31000 bps modem. > > the only limitation in transmission speed is the amount of binary > > values you can pack into one baud. that on the other hand is limited by > > the S/N (signal to noise) ratio of your line. If you have a noise of > > 0.9%, you can't use more than 100 steps or you have ambiguous signals. > > since people talk about 56000 bps modems (we tried 34000 modems here > > and they couldn't produce more than 28800 on a very good connection) > > that would mean, that you have to transmit 18 bits = 262144 (!) > > distinguishable signal forms per baud. > What about new ways of splitting the steps and baud more so that it > shows less at a higher level.... Just a question.. Ahh well, I'm > getting a page so I shall finish this now... Answer appreciated.. Huh? - ------< fate favors the prepared mind >------ Remo Pini rp(a)rpini.com PGP: http://www.rpini.com/crypto/crypto.html - ----< words are what reality is made of >---- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMj5DGBFhy5sz+bTpAQFQtwf/diE965nL6MCKX4ikXDyda9hq4a4yGQmV dxYHxD7ADCu32j+InC0FSCevO9Cjn5SoUhrHxsXHj/ZVaBEXRtJLX9g771FciBAz dqq1kKVVoFOJZGUCLUoHSD56tAU2t8pwXHu0QdnJWSpTLj9BausXGGcLH8PEJlAG 5bi3WP4M95Np/8nXUbR/GHlHiVLULRzDCgRLgVfDYe5NHgft69wXB5S3PoD/QUul ranoj1+4xk92M9SarPzcG8/gboR1EFVxgRdgLIi0zeyO+D0Ler648Btf6BgMdaSd Cr+9mzn/KXmrxHS4t6IPt+ZmZiUhzZHCcuxKrkb1JDz7pP6czhytyA== =0WaE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Forwared message from Pres. of juno.com
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:55 AM 9/17/96, Rabid Wombat wrote: >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:25:58 -0400 >From: Charles Ardai <charles(a)staff.juno.com> >To: Rabid Wombat <wombat(a)mcfeely.bsfs.org> >Subject: Annoying spam incident(s) ^^^^ >> Complaints about spamming and cross-posting probably won't get you far, ^^^^^^^^ >A couple of clarifications: Juno has never sent a single piece of spam and, ^^^^ ... And so on, with the word "spam" being used frequently throughout the exchange. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall seeing _any_ "spam" from the account holders at Juno. What I _do_ recall is one or more young kids signed up to our list and then began engaging in posting to the list various boring comments about their interests, their "warez," and so on. Stupid comments are not necessarily (or even usually) spam. When we start calling stupid postings "spam" and complaining to sysadmins about "spamming" by a user, we have seriously devalued any use the term might have once had. This applies whether the stupid posts are from "talker" or from _me_. We have an open mailing list, with anyone able to subscribe via majordomo. This means we'll get inexperienced users, flamers, and, yes, even true commercial spammers who use the open-reflector nature of the list to post their ads. (By the way, when various political organizations, e.g., EPIC, the Libertarian Party, EFF, VTW, etc., use this open-posting feature, is this also to be called "spamming"? Why is an alert to dozens of mailing lists and newsgroups not spam, while "Buy Wheaties" _is_ spam? The answer is that spam is in the eye of the beholder, and the law should not attempt to decide which "unrequested messages" are OK and which are not.) Some suggestions: -- if people want a closed list, use a version of list software that only allows members to post -- if people want "levels" of expertise involved, a la "29th Level Cypherpunk," this is not the place and time to try to implement this -- use filters, e.g., procmail, Eudora, whatever -- don't refer to unwanted posts as "spam," as this invites talk of applying laws about spam -- as always, use technology and related tools (filters, reputations) whenever possible instead of laws and the threat of laws The sooner we move to a system where people make positive decisions about which messages to accept and which not to, the better. This is a technological effort--seeking to influence the direction mail takes--worthy of some serious thinking, in my view. --Tim May We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: 56 kbps modems
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Jay Gairson wrote: >> Speaking of ISDN, how many people, can afford to have a personal ISDN >> line in there house? And then afford to connect to something/someone >> else on a next to permanent basis monthly? It's Phone Company Dependent. Here in Pac Bell territory, an ISDN phone line costs about 2.5 analog phone lines, and gets you two phone lines plus some signalling. Connection costs are free at night, and 1 cent/minute daytime. That may change - the phone company is appalled that all these computer people interpret the phrase "free at night" as meaning "it's _free_ at night", so their holding time predictions were bogus :-) Night is defined as 7pm-7am for ISDN. ISDN-equipped ISPs start at about $30/month; don't know if that's unlimited connect time or not. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # <A HREF="http://idiom.com/~wcs"> # You can get PGP software outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto

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Re: Snake Oil FAQ 0.4 [comments appreciated]
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:06 PM 9/16/96 -0400, The Deviant <deviant(a)pooh-corner.com> wrote: >Not to mention, the basic flaw of OTP.. if you have the only copy of the >key, and the key is non-repetitive, how do you send the key to another >person without being just as insecure as not encrypting it in the first >place... almost any OTP claims are gonna be snake oil. The way you send OTPs to people securely is to use couriers with briefcases handcuffed to their arms, or whatever level of physical security you need. The kinds of things software packages can help with are providing a friendly user interface for getting the next N bits out of the pad and trashing them after use, keeping track of where you were in the pad, handling the different pads you use to communicate with different people, driving the robot arm that drops the tape into the shredder, etc. Slightly less trustably, they can be used to help generate a pad by crunching down the data from your hardware random number generators, and perhaps emailing Geiger Counter data to the Safety Department after rounding to the nearest order of magnitude. Somebody else wrote: >> I would also suggest that the generation of OTP 'pads' for users is >> *highly* questionable. Who else is getting a copy of them, assuming they're >> even valid? Definitely - that concept loses big time. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # <A HREF="http://idiom.com/~wcs"> # You can get PGP software outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto

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Re: Risk v. Charity (was: RE: Workers Paradise. /Political rant
by craigw＠dg.ce.com.au 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Personally, I paid my way through uni...full fees. I took out a loan when I developed cancer to pay for it (as the health insurance was not finalised for aproval - so they got out of paying). The few months I was unemployed after I left the military because of a confict of interests I earned money by doing whatever I could get (even though I am an engineer I have worked in a petrol station). So why and for what reason sould I have to pay several 10's of thousands each year to support others. I have never taken help from the govenment, I do not feel I should have to pay as well. And what am I paying for...to protect the status quo. I believe that there is more than enough help for ppl available. They just need to get off their butts and work. > > tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May) wrote: > > >"Saving for a rainy day," whether saving, investing, getting an education > > (while others are out partying), preparing, etc., all takes effort and > > commitment. If those who save and prepare are then told they have to pay > > high taxes to support those who partied....well, the predictable effect > > [...] is _more_ people in agony. When you tell people that a compassionate > > society will meet their basic needs, a predictable fraction of them will choose > > not to work hard and prepare themselves. > > > > Two questions, two observations: > > Do you have health insurance? > > Do you have life insurance? > > Yes, so? > Yes, so? Myself also yes,yes > > I have commented on your line of reasoning before and and it still > > seems to me that an important part of the discussion is missed. > > Specifically, that anyone can "save for a rainy day" and still not be > > able to provide for events that can always happen: Heart attack, stroke, > > car accident, pinched nerve that leaves you in excruciating pain and > > unable to work for several years. > > Understand what it is you are saying. > ,'~``. \|/ ,'``~. (-o=o-) (@ @) ,(-o=o-), +--.oooO--(_)--Ooo-----oOO-(_)-OOo-------oooO--(_)--Oooo.------+ | | | Soon, we may all be staring at our computers, wondering | | whether they're staring back. | | | | [Network Admin For WPA Business Products. aka doshai >;-) ] | | .oooO http://pip.com.au/~doshai/ Oooo. | | ( ) Oooo. .oooO ( ) | +-----\ (----( )-------oooO-Oooo--------( )--- ) /---------+ \_) ) / \ ( (_/ (_/ \_) Key fingerprint = 2D F4 54 BB B4 EA F1 E7 B6 DE 48 92 FC 8D FF 49 Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key. (if I want to give it to you)

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