- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: infinity & set membership (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> What could be the problem here? One problem might be that an integer > (not including infinity) divided by "infinity" should be 0. This ratio has one of 3 outcomes in my system depending on the rate of approach to infinity of the defining functions, oo/oo = 0 if the denominator grows faster than the numerator oo/oo = oo if the numerator grows faster than the denominator oo/oo = 1 if the two functions grow at equal rates Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to > count back from it a finite number of steps. If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the limit). > If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of > well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence > classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with > all sorts of transfinite numbers. If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number (ie transfinite) which is larger than it? My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Monitoring the monitors [Was: Gilmore and Sandfort
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ross Wright wrote: > On or About 19 Jan 97 at 17:37, Dale Thorn wrote: > > Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. We already get the censored stuff > > on the alleged-to-be "unedited" list, so by looking at the censored > > list only, we can do the subtraction more reliably than Sandfort. > > Just the censored list is needed, not the cut-out stuff, as far as I know. > I disagree. Or I don't quite understand what you are saying. I > want to see the moderated list and I want to see what was removed. > So since I was automatically given the Moderated List, I just put in > a subscription, under a different address, so I can easily see what was > removed. Of the three lists that now exist: unedited, edited, and > removed posts, I would chose to remove the unedited version so that I > can keep my eye on what the moderators decide I should not see. That > gives me an insight into what they think. Ross, I agree in principle, but not in fact. If the "removed" list was accurate, I'd say yes, but not only is it suspect, Sandy admitted personally that some items could "fall thru the cracks" and not make it to either the edited or removed list. The only way to guarantee the removed list is to subtract the censored list from the uncensored list, and hope that the uncensored list is complete.

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1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: mac-crypto(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie(a)webstuff.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:33:11 -0800 From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie(a)webstuff.apple.com> To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: 1997 Mac Crypto Conf registration -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- hey all; I have posted a registration webpage for the 1997 Mac Crypto Conf at http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html If you plan to give a talk there, I am looking for abtracts by end of Jan thanks Vinnie Moscaritolo http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A - ------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Pretty Safe Mail 1.0 iQCVAwUBMtvcsfMF2+rAU+UdAQFOogP/R1/WmmAi3oEgLsC1il1OKf+7jR9j4L5U tAvhZIB6nyYpuHdP1fZ+/KfyCi4fYDmHIO4wVJo1BfbUtYL0YkIqzw/00JM8zfHR Zm9pcjSo70EDZPuypYyH+t0RlXJZj1eU0KjhAtRGeeWxAhP686wWCvz8hW4f2VfX uiLObXiqXiw= =faEk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97"

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Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate allegedly said: > > > Forwarded message: > > > Only countably many real numbers, or members of any uncountable > > set, are denumerable. It is the property of being uncountable, > > rather than of being real or complex, which is important here. > > In short you are saying there are Reals which can not be expressed in the > format: > > AmEm + Am-1Em-1 + ... + A0E0 . B0E-1 + B1E-2 + ... + BnE-n+1 No, that's not what he is saying. What you have written does not represent a *specific* number. He is saying that IF you have a particular scheme for representing *specific* numbers, you can only represent countably many -- for any given scheme, there are numbers you can't represent. To put it another way a scheme that says "you can represent numbers as half infinite strings of digits with a single period somewhere" doesn't actually *specify* any numbers. A scheme that says "start with the number 1 and increment it 400 times" actually specifies a number. > And I contend that ANY number which is Real can be expressed by the decimal > expansion above. Which clearly qualifies as a formal system. To be a formal system of the type required, you would also have to specify deterministic rules that could generate the "Ai" values. The key distinction is between "expressed by" and "generated by". -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: 5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E 87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F

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UNS_top
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

01-16-97. Reuters: "Unstoppable Internet will defy controls" Governments which seek to restrain the freedom of speech and tax the vast electronic commerce spawned by the Internet will almost certainly be wasting their time, experts say, and that any attempt to control traffic over the Internet will be futile. Governments in China, Burma and Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with minimal success. Dr Bob Glass of Sun Microsystems Inc said any attempt by governments to curtail any of this would be a waste of time. Not even the most powerful computers will be able to effectively patrol the world's telephone lines. Individual computer experts will always be one step ahead. "Big brother is out there trying to monitor this, but I don't think they're competent enough," he said. "Government is not really aware of the magnitude of money exchange on the web, but there's really not much they can do about it." Professor Patrick Purcell from London's Imperial College describes the Internet as a highly subversive phenomenom for international telecommunications, for a nation's state security and for international commerce. ----- UNS_top

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List of reliable remailers
by Raph Levien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail(a)miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster(a)remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer(a)replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias(a)alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod(a)nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = "<mix(a)zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer(a)remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack(a)holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = "<lucifer(a)dhp.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = "<remailer(a)cypherpunks.ca> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = "<winsock(a)rigel.cyberpass.net> cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = '<config(a)nym.alias.net> newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = "<remailer(a)huge.cajones.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = "<mix(a)squirrel.owl.de> cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = "<middleman(a)jpunix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; $remailer{'cyber'} = '<alias(a)alias.cyberpass.net> alpha pgp'; $remailer{"dustbin"} = "<dustman(a)athensnet.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?"; $remailer{'weasel'} = '<config(a)weasel.owl.de> newnym pgp'; $remailer{"death"} = "<x(a)deathsdoor.com> cpunk pgp hash latent post"; $remailer{"reno"} = "<middleman(a)cyberpass.net> cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; catalyst(a)netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth(a)ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura(a)replay.com is _not_ a remailer. remailer(a)crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer. There is no remailer at relay.com. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix) (weasel squirrel) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers. The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems for incoming mail. The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only. 403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now. The penet remailer is closed. Last update: Mon 20 Jan 97 6:47:59 PST remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- nym config(a)nym.alias.net +#+-*******# 4:38 99.99% weasel config(a)weasel.owl.de +++++-+++++ 1:34:36 99.95% lucifer lucifer(a)dhp.com +++++-++++++ 36:32 99.94% balls remailer(a)huge.cajones.com *+ ********* 3:01 99.94% cyber alias(a)alias.cyberpass.net * +*++++*+** 35:08 99.88% exon remailer(a)remailer.nl.com * ++##*###*# 1:14 99.86% winsock winsock(a)rigel.cyberpass.net ----------- 2:02:21 99.86% dustbin dustman(a)athensnet.com -++--+.--+- 3:01:52 99.74% squirrel mix(a)squirrel.owl.de ++ + ++ +++ 1:35:05 99.41% lead mix(a)zifi.genetics.utah.edu +++++-++*+*+ 39:30 99.35% extropia remail(a)miron.vip.best.com ----------- 5:06:43 98.93% haystack haystack(a)holy.cow.net +* .-####+# 2:24:43 98.64% replay remailer(a)replay.com +*+******* 15:38 98.25% reno middleman(a)cyberpass.net + + -+-- 1:51:15 92.61% middle middleman(a)jpunix.com ++ -+ .-- 1:48:09 67.78% mix mixmaster(a)remail.obscura.com .-++-+. 4:35:20 50.49% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien

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Slow Cypherpunk Day
by mpd＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is cypherpunks-outgoing-ksiuw(a)toad.com where articles should be sent to bypass the censors? Testing 1 2 3... Cocksucker Armenian Mayonaise Gilmore Faggot Crypto Testing 1 2 3... We now return you to your regular programming... -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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Re: Newt's phone calls
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sean Roach <roach_s(a)alph.swosu.edu> wrote in article <5bv7g8$fhl(a)life.ai.mit.edu>... > At 03:44 PM 1/17/97 -0600, Igor Chudov wrote: > > It is limited, both accounts have to have the same password, (four > character, numeric.) If I want to transfer funds from another persons > account to one that I control, all I have to do is change the password on > one of them to that of the other, transfer funds, and change the password > back. By the time that my victim found out, (via the little letter "per > your request, $xxx was transferred to accnt#123456 from accnt#7890"), I > would be long gone. Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions with Swiss, German and UK banks. For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque. Phill.

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Using the political opportunity Was: Newt's phone calls
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sarah L. Green <greens(a)hiwaay.net> wrote in article <5bo2df$7ui(a)life.ai.mit.edu>... > On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > > It was a conference call but over a cellular phone. Martin had hacked his > > Radio Shack Scanner using a well known technique. He had a radio ham > > license. > > > Phill > Actually I'd love to see this go to court & have the law itself > tossed out. How many years have the airwaves been free? Now it is > illegal to listen on the cellular frequencies. Well I would love to see the case go to court but I prefer to see someone else being harassed. I don't imagine for a minute that anyone will want to take it to court though. Newt can hardly want his crookery to continue to be before the public eye. He wants it buried as soon as possible so he can make similarly "arcane" charges "nobody understands" against Clinton. Interestingly the tax law that Newt broke was the use of non profit funds for political purposes. Newt should know all about these since the Republicans used these laws to shut down political comment by the likes of the Sierra club etc under Reagan. I know several people who used to be involved in non-profits who either resigned or changed the status of the group because the cost of administration and risk of politically motivated prosecution was not worth the tax advantages. Given the "butterfly under the wheel" nature of the Republican attack I would expect jury nullification in a big way. Meanwhile there would be several weeks of questions asking why Newt is not being prosecuted, only the Martins. Despite the fact that I don't think the Democrats are smart enough to mount such a conspiracy it would be a bloody good one if they had done. I think that the challenge the crypto lobby must take on is to use the event to raise public consciousness for crypto rights. What we probably need is a single issue lobby group that the media can call on for this and only this issue and nothing else. The energies of the CDT and EFF are inevitably spread between this and other issues such as the CDA. The problem is that a journalist does not immediately think EFF or CDT when a cellphone case comes up. A single issue crypto lobby could fill that purpose. Phill

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