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Re: Project 415
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Duncan Campbell says he doubts the Paul Dore story has anything to do with P415/Echelon, which is a collection system not a satellite. Moreover, the description of a "deep space" satellite does not fit the the known parameters of those that gather intelligence. Might be a completely new type but that's a stretch. One article Anonymous posted says Paul Dore denies having anything to do with the Web page we cited here as having been removed. Another says the SETI people are pissed about the incident, one saying it has set SETI's credibility back "by a 100 years." Still unexplained is the reason for the now 11,000 downloads of Duncan's 1988 article on P451/Echelon in the last 36 hours. Could be an alien bot, pissed at being awakened by SETI putzes' screen savers.

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Re: Grounding
by Michael Motyka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim, I really have to disagree about shielding and leakage. *** Electricity runs from a high-potential point to ground. If it isn't grounded it radiates away into space where it can be detected. If the Faraday Cage isn't grounded it simply acts as a parasitic oscillator and re-emits the signal from inside, though at a lower amplitude. Remember, charge rests on the *OUTSIDE* of a object so that any charge picked up internaly gets passed to the outside surface. *** Consider a battery-powered spark gap inside a copper box. Lots of beautiful wideband noise. I refuse to ground my copper box. I'm going to suspend it from a weather balloon over Menwith Hill. The solutions to the wave equation inside the cavity have a real part ~0 in the exponent. The boundary condition at the inside surface of the copper box splices together the solutions in the cavity and inside the conductor. Which solutions, BTW, have a real component that is non-zero so the waves are of exponentially decreasing amplitude the further into the Cu you go ( skin depth, power loss ). At the inside boundary, the higher the conductivity the smaller the E field at the surface, the shallower the skin depth and the more power is reflected with less loss. The amplitude of the internal Cu ( exponentially decreasing ) solutions at the outside surface determines the extent to which the wave leaks out because the solution is imaginary again outside. If it helps, the solution looks like the Schroedinger equation solution for a particle in a potential well when at least one boundary is a region of finite potential. Leakage has nothing to do with being grounded since the wave can be generated without the total charge residing on the surface of the box ( DC potential ) changing at all. What's there just moves around a little, that's all. I don't think it takes a whole lot of copper to do the job: the skin depth is pretty small. A copper screen behaves much like the copper sheet execept that it deviates as the wavelengths become closer to the dimensions of the holes. You might say that the resistivity increases with frequency. It leaks more. ** The 1st rule of electrons: They always take the shortest path to ground. Corollary: If they can't get to ground they radiate their excess energy away as photons. *** Oh, for crying out loud! Where did this stuff come from? I prefer the three laws of thermodynamics in layman's terms: i) You can't get something for nothing ii) The best you can do is break even iii) You can't even do that Works for my checking account too. Regards, Mike BTW - I'm still at a loss to understand what the geology has to do with RF shielding. Chaff, I think. BTW^2 - The more conductive the TARMAC the more clutter you'll get because it will be a better reflector. Ground or not. The incident waves *don't care*.

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

24 shots came from 1 officer in Oregon case Policeman fired until gun empty, then reloaded and kept firing By BOB SABLATURA Copyright 1998 Houston Chronicle One of the officers nobilled in the death of Pedro Oregon Navarro fired his semiautomatic pistol at the 22-year-old man until the magazine was empty, then reloaded and continued firing. In all, Officer David R. Barrera fired 24 of the 33 shots discharged in Oregon's southwest Houston apartment July 12, according to sources familiar with the investigation. Assistant District Attorney Ed Porter confirmed that Barrera fired most of the shots. While the medical examiner's office could not determine the exact caliber of the bullets that made the 12 wounds in Oregon's body, Porter said, three of the four bullets recovered from the body were fired from Barrera's weapon. Porter, who was present on the scene a few hours after the shooting -- and reconstructed it during a walk-through with the officers involved -- suggested that the bullets that struck Oregon may have been some of the last shots that the officers fired. "I strongly suspect that was the case," Porter said. Richard Mithoff, an attorney representing Oregon's family, said it is "incomprehensible" that one of the officers paused to reload his weapon. "They had no grounds to be in the apartment, and no grounds to open fire," Mithoff said. "And if this is true, there certainly was no grounds to reload and execute this guy lying on the ground." Aaron Ruby, a member of the Justice for Pedro Oregon Coalition, said Barrera's actions could only be termed "homicidal and premeditated," and probably explain the numerous bullet holes in Oregon's back. "If that fact was known to the grand jury, it makes their actions all the more outrageous," Ruby said. "I believe the people of Houston will be stunned when they learn of this." Harris County District Attorney John B. Holmes Jr. said state law allows police officers to use deadly force if they believe it necessary for self-defense and can continue shooting "so long as they reasonably perceive" the threat continues. "An analogy I use is that if it is OK to kill a guy dead, it is OK to kill him dead, dead, dead," Holmes said. Holmes said it is also not uncommon for a police officer involved in a shooting to have no idea how many shots he fired. Barrera, a five-year veteran of the Houston Police Department, was armed with a 9 mm Sig-Sauer semi-automatic pistol loaded with nylon-coated bullets. According to the Police Department, after illegally entering Oregon's apartment with fellow members of the HPD gang task force in an unsuccessful search for drugs, Barrera and several other officers chased Oregon to his bedroom and kicked in the locked door. During the pursuit, Barrera's pistol discharged, striking one of his partners in the shoulder. The officers said they believed they were being shot at, and two officers joined Barrera in firing at Oregon. Barrera emptied his pistol, paused to reload a new magazine, and resumed firing, according to prosecutors. Investigators later determined that Barrera fired a total of 24 rounds. Barrera's weapon was originally loaded with a standard 16-round magazine, which held at least 14 rounds. He reloaded with an extended magazine holding even more rounds. The second magazine was not emptied, according to sources. Officers David R. Perkins and Pete A. Herrada fired a total of nine rounds between them. Both officers were armed with similar .40-caliber handguns. Perkins carried a Sig-Sauer Model 40 and Herrada was armed with a Glock Model 23. Prosecutors said only about 10 seconds elapsed from the time the shooting began to the time it ended. Semi-automatic pistols typically are double-action on the first shot, meaning that pulling the trigger draws the hammer back -- cocking it -- and then releases it. After the first shot, the hammer remains in a cocked position so less trigger-tension is required to fire the weapon, making it fire quicker. The officer can also aim the gun more accurately because it takes less movement of the trigger to discharge shots. Oregon's body was hit 12 times, nine times in the back, once in the back of the shoulder, and once in the back of his left hand. In addition, one shot entered the top of his head, exiting above the right ear. At least nine shots entered his body at a downward angle, suggesting he was shot while face-down on the floor. Four bullets were recovered from Oregon's body, and numerous bullet fragments were found underneath the carpet beneath the body. The body was face-down, with his head toward the doorway through which the police officers were firing. Attorneys for the Oregon family dispute the police officers' version of events, and say Oregon was not in the front of the apartment when police illegally barged in. "It is my understanding that he was in the bedroom," Mithoff said. They also contend that some of the officers' shots were fired through the bedroom wall, indicating they were blindly firing into the room. Porter said he has examined numerous crime scenes involving police shootings during his career and is amazed just how often shots fired by police officers miss their mark. "Most people think an officer fires a weapon and someone gets shot," Porter said. "Often that is just not the case." Holmes said the grand jury heard evidence regarding all the shots fired, the trajectory of the bullets, the position of the officers and the medical examiner's reports regarding wounds to Oregon's body. "The specific number of times and the path of the projectiles was known to the grand jury," Holmes said. After hearing all the evidence, a grand jury cleared five of the six officers -- including Barrera -- of all charges. One officer was charged with a misdemeanor offense of criminal trespass. Earlier this week, all six officers were fired by Chief C.O. Bradford for violating the law and ignoring department procedures. Barrera's attorney did not respond to a request for an interview. Rick Dovalina, national president of LULAC, said he is especially concerned that HPD Internal Affairs found the officers had violated the law in conducting the raid, but the grand jury had brought no charges. He renewed his call for Holmes to try to bring charges against the officers. "They are both supposed to be looking at the same evidence," Dovalina said. "Johnny Holmes needs to do the right thing and present the case to another grand jury." Posted for the entertainment of those that chide Tim for being armed to the teeth. Regards, TimeToBuyAGun

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Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern.
by Michael Motyka 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Matt, > Please explain how you can sheild something without grounding it. > Doesn't the energy need some place to go? > Wrong metaphor for RF energy. It's not water. A ground is not a storm drain. Imagine two conductive spheres ( earth and moon ? ) and an RF generator in a box sitting *peacefully* in space. Classical 3-body problem. The DC potential that exists between any of them has absolutley no effect on a wave travelling anywhere ( unless you want to get into the topic of nonlinear materials ). So forget about everything in the scene except that generator in the box. Shielding consists solely of preventing the wave from getting out of the box into free space where it can be detected. There is nothing special about *any* of the DC references. Earth may be special ( source of women and beer ) but not to a wave. Besides, chaining my laptop to a giant copper spike in a geologically suitable region is out of the question. Just shielding it would make an already heavy ThinkPad into a main battle tank. Mike

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Halloween II
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 18:53:46 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: love(a)cptech.org Originator: info-policy-notes(a)essential.org Sender: info-policy-notes(a)essential.org Precedence: bulk From: James Love <love(a)cptech.org> To: Multiple recipients of list INFO-POLICY-NOTES <info-policy-notes(a)essential.org> Subject: Halloween II MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Comment: To unsubscribe from this list, send the message "unsubscribe info-policy-notes" to "listproc(a)essential.org". Leave the "Subject:" line blank. ------------------------------------------------------------ Info-Policy-Notes | News from Consumer Project on Technology ------------------------------------------------------------ November 5, 1998 Halloween II On November 2, 1998 Info-Policy-Notes provided a link to the so called Halloween document, which detailed Microsoft's analysis of Linux and other open source software. (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/halloween.html) Now Eric Rayond has published a second document which he has dubbed Halloween II. This one is on the web at: http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html Halloween II is authored by Vinod Valloppillil (VinodV), the author of the Halloween I, and Josh Cohen (JoshCo). It is dated Aug 11, 1998 , and is version 1.0. The heading is: Microsoft Confidential Linux Operating System The Next Java VM? The document is very interesting. One line that has gotten a lot of attention is at the end, where the authors suggest: "The effect of patents and copyright in combating Linux remains to be investigated." The Linux community generally thinks they can out code Microsoft, so long as they are permitted. But there is a lot of concern over software patents, which are often very broad, poorly researched by the US government, and expensive to litigate. Under recent court cases, there are few barriers to harassment based upon spurious litigation over patents, so this is a cause for concern. On a topic discussed at some length in Halloween I, Halloween II says by "folding extended functionality into today's commodity [open standards] services and create new [proprietary] protocols, we raise the bar & change the rules of the game." (the brackets added by me). There is also an interesting article in today's Linux Today: Who are all these people behind the Halloween document? Nov 5th, 12:32:47 Here's an in-depth look at the personalities behind the Halloween documents. By Dave Whitinger http://linuxtoday.com/stories/638.html A few other related articles are Tim O'Rielly's Open Letter to Microsoft about Halloween I, which is on the web at: http://www.oreilly.com/oreilly/press/tim_msletter.html and, news that Microsoft has tried to hire Linux hacker Alan Cox. This last one suggests Microsoft is stepping up their campaign to crush the open software movement. Here are some excerpts that Alan Cox posted today about the Halloween document. http://www.linux.org.uk/ [snip] Its important to realize how fundamental open standards are. Most people are probably sitting at a PC built with mixed cards from mixed vendors on an open standard bus, typing on a keyboard with open standard connectors, using an open standard Qwerty layout, talking an open standard RS232 serial protocol to a modem that talks an open protocol to the ISP. Its all running off a standard electricity specification. Even your chair is probably held together by open standard nuts and bolts. Computing is becoming a commodity item and like all commodity items it needs to be open, for the consumer and for the long term good of the industry as a whole. Linux is open, if there is anything you didn't get told you can check the source code. A couple of other fun things have happened too, the I2O SIG developing the next generation high end I/O interface for PC's have now made their specification open, and Microsoft tried to hire me. I think the I2O SIG have the better chance of success here. Alan This is Alan Cox's home page: http://www.linux.org.uk/diary/ There is also running commentary, much if it entertaining, often rather speculative, but also a very good source of breaking news on these issues at: http://www.slashdot.org Finally, CPT will be studying the Halloween documents, and asking antitrust authorities to determine if Microsoft's intended plans to corrupt open standards violate antitrust laws. More on this next week. Jamie Love <love(a)cptech.org> 202.387.8030 ------------------------------------------------------------- INFORMATION POLICY NOTES: the Consumer Project on Technology http://www.cptech.org, 202.387.8030, fax 202.234.5127. Archives of Info-Policy-Notes are available from http://www.essential.org/listproc/info-policy-notes/ Subscription requests to listproc(a)cptech.org with the message: subscribe info-policy-notes Jane Doe To be removed from the list, the message should read, unsub info-policy-notes ------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 16:24:21 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka <mmotyka(a)lsil.com> > Subject: Re: How to test *your* microwave oven distribution pattern. > Wrong metaphor for RF energy. You said more than you know with that one. > It's not water. A ground is not a storm > drain. >From the perspective of the flow of charge that is a very good metaphor. Charge flows from the high charge area to the low charge area *always* and ground is by definition the lowest charge area there is. Just like water *always* flows from the high PE to the low PE. > Imagine two conductive spheres ( earth and moon ? ) and an RF generator > in a box sitting *peacefully* in space. Classical 3-body problem. That's gravity, not electrostatics. There are no intractable problems regarding n-body electrostatics issues as there is with gravity. Now of course in the real world we can't get one without the other, but you didn't mention that aspect. > The DC > potential that exists between any of them has absolutley no effect on a > wave travelling anywhere DC potentials have no effect on a wave anyway, they don't emit photons. They are a physical representation of a line intergral. The potential between two points is not effected by the path taken to get between the two points. > ( unless you want to get into the topic of > nonlinear materials ). Bullshit. > So forget about everything in the scene except > that generator in the box. Then why in hell did you bring it up in the first place. I smell spin doctor bullshit coming.... > Shielding consists solely of preventing the > wave from getting out of the box into free space where it can be > detected. There is nothing special about *any* of the DC references. There is no wave with DC. If you want to make a wave you have to *move* the DC field generator or the measurement device. Now the charge that is *in* the box will leak to the outside of the shield *even if it's an insulator*, it's called charge tunneling. > Earth may be special ( source of women and beer ) but not to a wave. Depends on a wave of what. If we're talking electrostatics then yes Earth is special. I would direct you to many of Nikola Tesla's work on this exact topic but you probably wouldn't read it. It's special because the Earth itself has a charge and that interacts with the charge on the box. If the charges are opposite they attract and the box moves toward the Earth (the Earth moves toward the box as well but the delta rho is inconsequential so we usualy ignore it). If the charges are identical then the two move apart. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Grounding (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:25:21 -0800 > From: Michael Motyka <mmotyka(a)lsil.com> > Subject: Re: Grounding > *** > Electricity runs from a high-potential point to ground. If it isn't > grounded > it radiates away into space where it can be detected. If the Faraday > Cage > isn't grounded it simply acts as a parasitic oscillator and re-emits the > signal from inside, though at a lower amplitude. Remember, charge rests > on > the *OUTSIDE* of a object so that any charge picked up internaly gets > passed > to the outside surface. > *** > > Consider a battery-powered spark gap inside a copper box. Lots of > beautiful wideband noise. I refuse to ground my copper box. I'm going to > suspend it from a weather balloon over Menwith Hill. And you'll build a hell of a charge on it which will travel down the connecting cable that you have pounded into the Earth. > The solutions to the wave equation inside the cavity have a real part ~0 > in the exponent. It's not a question of a Schroedingers Wave Equation, it's a question of Maxwell's Equations. > The boundary condition at the inside surface of the > copper box splices together the solutions in the cavity and inside the > conductor. What conductor? The shell is equipotential unless you're trying to play head games with me so there follows there can be no current flow through it except radialy to the outside of the sphere. Let's walk through it using your model.... The spark gap generates sparks and that builds up free electrons in the space inside the sphere (whether it is gas filled or a vacuum is irrelevant). As that charge builds up it will be all of one type, electrons. Now the electrons repel each other and therefor move in a circular motion with the spark gap as the center. They strike the surface of the sphere and tunnel through to the outside surface where they reside. The amount of charge at any one point is related to the curvature of the surface at that point. Since a sphere is constant curvature the charge will be evenly distributed. It will continue to build up so long as you supply power to the spark gap. In an ideal world it will get bigger and bigger. In the real world at some point insulation breaks down and normal current flow takes place. As to the 3 Laws of Thermodynamics, you should use Heinz Pagels (RIP) as they are much funnier and a lot easier to understand and apply: 1. You can't break even 2. You can't get ahead 3. You can't quit the game ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the Foregone > (fwd) > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:52:14 -0800 > > Yes, they are. Can you say 'taxes'? > > Imposed by a gun. Don't try to change the subject. Just because you don't find taxes worthwhile doesn't mean others do as well. My bitch is about the amount and the way it's legislated, not about paying them. I'd sure as hell rather pay taxes for police, fire, ems, etc. than try to deal with that all myself. If that were the case we wouldn't have a very high level of society since nobody would have time to run businesses, write great books, make movies, develop computers, etc. They'd be too damn busy sneaking up on the deer or shooting/stealing their neighbors food/wife. > > Can you say 'interstate commerce'? > > What about it? It's one of the defining characteristics that allow a government to be a economic factor in the economic system, contrary to the original thesis. > > Can you say 'mint money'? Can you say 'federal reserve'? > > Can you say government fiat? Can you say fucked up non-working economy if there isn't some standardization of monetary systems? I can see it now if folks like you get your way. When I go to Louisiana I'll need a whole new currency that I can't trade my Texas money for. Yep, that's an optimal way to run an economy. > > Can you say 'FDIC'? > > Can you say banking regulation at the point of a gun? Don't change the subject (again). > The Soviet Union is a prime recent example. How? > British Mercantilism. How? > Governments are ultimately bound to economics in the sense of human behavior > and productivity -- the more they deny the nature of microeconomic actors, > the quicker they self-destruct. Economics *is* human behaviour, the science is the tools that we use to describe what happens *after* the fact and if we're right we might even be able to make some small usable predictions about what people in a gross level will do in the future. If you are trying to extend economics to the extent of trying to predict the micro-economic actions of individuals then you don't understand macro or micro economics very well. > History shows that every dynasty well eventually self-destruct, to think > ours won't is foolish. Everything self desctructs at one point or another. Besides this issue is irrelevant and immaterial to whether it is legitimate to consider a government as an economic partner in a economic system, and whether that model for government includes aspects normaly thought of as being a commercial enterprise. Again, stay on topic. > My point is we don't have competitive governments per > se You are lost in a dream world, all government are competitive. Ask Clinton, Hussein, Pinochet, Netanyahuh, etc. Why? Because people are competitive, it's the way biology works. >, you have a power void that is filled by new government that can be just > as hostile to those microeconomic actors. All our government failures have > yet to produce a sustainable government. It never happens that way. The *only* time you have a power void is when there are no governments in the first place. Once they are established other governments and systems move in to take over the territory. It's quite biological (which shouldn't surprise anyone) in its behaviour. Usualy a government ceases because another government (whether internal or external is irrelevant to the point at hand) moves in and destroys the base of the original government. It might be by force but the fall of the CCCP clearly indicates that we are seeing governments change their systems radicaly without the violence, destruction, and death that historicaly such changes have required. The fall of the CCCP is a watershed event because it indicates that government systems can in fact change without these effects, that is a very hopeful sign. > > False distinction. Politics is about control and power > > The fundamental laws of economics are supply and demand. As soon as you > through force into the equation, it is no longer economic, it is political. No, the fundamental law of economics is greed/desire/want/etc. Supply and demand is how we describe the consequences of the flow of goods and services. Now exactly why you're bringing up economics when the issue in this case was the base motivations of politics smacks of a strawman. > > in human society that breaks down to force and money. > > The essence of money has no political roots. The essence of money is human > productivity and trade. Oh baloney. There are two aspects of organized human society (ie politics). Self-defence and self-sufficiency. The first requires brute force and the second requires some mechanism of trade. For a society to get very large at all *requires* a generalization of the barter system to a symbolic one, that symbol is money. > Money is tied to politics currently because it is regulated by force of > government and the money *supply* is created by government fiat. First, the money supply was created by a popular vote, not a government fiat because there was no government to execute the fiat at the time. Now as to money being tied to politics, see the paragraph above. > > There you go again, confusing privacy with economics... > > The discussion *was* *privacy*, No, the discussion was the viability of modeling a government as a economic entity within the economic system of a geographic region and what that meant. There was also a side issue relating privacy and freedom to anarchy. > discussion? Privacy (as opposed to secrecy) is about discretionary > disclosure of information. No, that is respect for privacy. Secrecy is the intentional act of hiding information that one doesn't want others to discover, not the same horse at all. > To invade privacy is to remove or prevent that > discretion. No, to invade privacy is to disrespect it. Discretion is knowing when to do it and not get caught. > There is an economic cost of doing so, and an economic benefit. Not necessarily. I can invade my childrens privacy and there is no economic cost or benefit. My neighbor can rifle my mail and there is no cost one way or the other (unless they steal my paycheck and that's a whole nother issue). The government could tap my phone and there would be no economic impact. Privacy does not require the issue of economics to brought into it until we begin to discuss economic strategies. It is the issue of money that brings privacy into the discussion and not the other way around. > Corporations are bound by those economics, whereas government can mandate > transparency by whim and gun. No, it is clear that governments are bound by the will of their citizens, their economy, geography, and their technology. They are not omnipotent. > > True, but that isn't a function of regulation per se only the > > particular type of regulation that we have implimented. > > It is the *nature* of regulation. No it isn't. I regulate my dogs behavior and don't use force. Football games are regulated by rules and they aren't imposed by force. The way my company works is very regulated but there is no force involved. No, regulation does not automaticaly imply force. Where force comes into play is when the issue being regulated effects many individuals and some of those individuals want the benefits but don't want to pay the costs. They want a free ride at others expense. > Government is a natural instrument of collective legalized force by any This is a non-sequetar, governments define legality they are not defined by it. There isn't some outside agency that defines what a government will do, it's internal to the government and its participants. > group that can influence it, and to think it can't and won't be influenced > denies human nature in regards to power. Yeah, so. I don't believe this is relevant since we all agree on this. It's a function of human nature to try to get in a position of special favor so at least some rules don't apply to you. It's a competitive advantage. > Every government is despotic by > nature, force corrupts. People are corruptable, governments are simply the framework they create to express it. > > No, they don't. It is perfectly legal for an individual to > > own a weapon. > > The legal monopoly on the *initiation* of force. I got news for you dude, I catch you in my truck after dark or running down the street with my property I'm perfectly within my rights to initiate force. > And in fact you have very > little freedom (eternally diminishing) to obtain potential force (arms) and > use it in a *reactionary* manner. You mean in an insiteful manner. You aren't talking about reacting to something you're veiled comment is to allow yourself for example to buy a weapon and kill me (for example) simply because you're pissed off about something. It surprises you that I and others won't give you that freedom? > You have absolutely *no* freedom to use it > reactionary against government (which is in the face of the 4th). ARTICLE IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. That in fact does allow you to shoot somebody if they enter your home illegaly, even a police officer. If you're being raped and shoot a cop it's perfectly legal. If he's beating the shit out of you it's perfectly legal to defend yourself, even to the point of killing the officer. The problem is your not wanting to use it in immediate self-defence, you're talking about going out and mowing people down simply because your pissed off at what they stand for and you can't get your way. Your pissed off, like all anarchist, that you can't take advantage of people with impunity. A childish and petulant view. I'm going to stop now since the rest of your email is more of the same. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Who Cares (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:00:10 -0500 > From: Petro <petro(a)playboy.com> > Subject: Re: Who Cares (fwd) > While I won't deny that some of the people who don't vote are in > the position you claim they are, their not voting has nothing to do with > their economic position, it has to do with the facts that: Many of the people are in that situation. Most people don't vote for two reasons: 1. It won't significantly effect their lives one way or the other 2. They don't have time, or at least don't believe they have time. > 1) This is a mid-term election. Since it isn't a presidential > election, fewer really care to research the issues (which are fewer). Yeah, why? (hint: see 1.) > 2) We are currently in decent economic times, and as Terry Pratchet > noted on Men At Arms, (paraphrasing here) Most people don't really care > about democrazy, Equal Rights, or any of that, they just want tomorrow to > be exactly like today. Then Terry Pratchet is an idiot. People don't want it to stay the same, they want it to get better. They want more money, a bigger house, better clothes, a cooler car, etc. If you and Terry seriously don't believe folks understand democracy (though they may not act the way you want them to in expressing it) then you should spend some time talking to people and askign them how much they would take to get rid of the Constitution, allow cops to wander through their homes at will, etc. You're both in for a very rude surprise. > 3) As Jimmy notes, there usually isn't much of a difference between > one canidate and the other (outside of the Natural Law types), and those > canidates who _are_ different (Libertarians, Socialists &etc. ("reform" > types don't count, they really are for making tomorrow just like yesterday > & today, only they ADMIT it for the most part)) either don't get enough > votes to challenge the status quo, or if there is an issue that will > challenge the status quo, the number of voters tends to increase (to > varying degrees). True, though I'd say the reason that we don't have a more diverse political venue is because we don't have proportional seating in the various houses. That was a fundamental fault with the founding fathers, they misunderstood the homogeneity of peoples view. Of course they didn't have a clue about television and such causing a global homogeniety. But then again, that is our cross to bear in living up to 'a more perfect union'. The one unifying aspect that amazes me about many of you folks on this mailing list is your complete lack of understanding of your own duty and responsibilities in this government. You bitch and bitch and yammer about what's wrong but you have no desire to fix it, your so focused on initiating violence it's pathetic. When the Constitutuion was written the job was just begun, it wasn't finished as you seem to imply. ____________________________________________________________________ To know what is right and not to do it is the worst cowardice. Confucius The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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