- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: [Dgcchat] I was talking about a different James
by R.A. Hettinga 05 May '07

05 May '07

--- begin forwarded text Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 19:05:21 -0400 To: Digital Gold and Silver Discussion List <dgcchat(a)dgcchat.com> From: James Turk <jamesturk(a)goldmoney.com> Subject: Re: [Dgcchat] I was talking about a different James Reply-To: Digital Gold and Silver Discussion List <dgcchat(a)dgcchat.com> Sender: dgcchat-bounces(a)dgcchat.com Raven Thanks for your thoughtful reply. On the chance that my views may be helpful, here's how I see it. >So if you operate an account-based currency, it seems you would be >expected to follow the law, doesn't it? > >-- Stop! This is where you lose a lot of the guys here. I'll try to >make this brief: > >1. You're accepting Big Brother. (Some here think you are welcoming >and inviting BB to "bring law and order" to the digital economy.) I >fully understand that BB exists, and that it must be considered as a >practical matter. But also understand that a lot of the folks here DO >NOT accept it as a given, and do not wish to bow down to it. They'd >rather run around it and try to build freedom. I'm sure some of us >don't divide these two different modes very well, but this is a major >issue. First, the principle that seems to be evolving in the still nascent Internet is that each country sets the "law and order" for those people who access the Internet from that country. Thus if you access the Internet from within France, you subject yourself to French law. Similarly, if you are in the US, you are subject to US law. The corollary is that you are subject to the law of the country in which you operate your Internet business. Thus if your company's staff, servers and customer data are within the US, it seems pretty clear that your business is subject to US law, regardless if your company is incorporated in some other country. Second, and more importantly, I'm not accepting BB. In fact, I'm doing exactly what you say about avoiding BB. That's why we have chosen to build our business in the British Channel Islands, which is a sovereign country that is very protective of property rights, and property rights are very important to me as the builder of a financial services business. Some people on this list have a totally unrealistic view of the world, possibly because they have never travelled out of their home country. Government is a fact of life. We decided to deal with that reality by locating in the British Channel Islands. We comply with the law there, and as a consequence need to know who are customers are. The quid pro quo is that our customers are protected by the law there, which is Anglo-Saxon common law -- the principles of which are based on property rights. GoldMoney is built upon sound business principles with a solid business plan. The outcome will be as I said in my other post to "create a DGC that I believe will withstand the test of time. Consequently, GoldMoney will change things regarding money and banking -- which many people on this list would no doubt like to see. We want to reduce the role of government in money. GoldMoney is doing this by providing people with a viable and well-run non-national currency, i.e., a currency not run by government." So GoldMoney is not accepting BB. It's the exact opposite. We're dealing with BB in a pragmatic way. Thus while we cope with BB in our own way, we are building our business which will in time I expect change how people around the world view money and also change what they will use for currency. >2. Other account-based systems (like banks) are NOT shut down if their >customers do nasty things. This happens ONLY if the operators were >involved. Is my bank required to verify the intent of every check I >send through it? No? Then why is e-gold? I have seen no evidence that >e-gold knowingly colluded with kiddie-porn dealers. Banks don't verify the intent of every check. All banks do is go through the process of knowing who their customers are. E-Gold didn't do that. E-Gold to my knowledge wasn't shut down. Only the accounts in the indictments were shut down. Other accounts are still operating, aren't they? That's the same thing that happens in banks if banks don't follow the regulations governing them. If E-Gold's own accounts were frozen, that happens in the banks too if they don't comply with regulations. >3. Of course criminals are a problem here - they're a problem >everywhere! And, yes, there are real questions about business ethics >in dealing with ponzis, etc. - but those are EXACTLY the things we >should argue about on a list like this! AND DO ALL THE TIME! Yes, we do talk about that a lot, don't we? But talk is one thing, and action is another, and we all know that E-Gold allows ponzis and that ilk to operate accounts within E-Gold. Read the indictment the feds put together. It's an eye opener. >Finally, you seem to exhibit no empathy or concern for e-gold or any >of their users. Obviously I have no empathy for the crooks. With regard to E-Gold's legitimate customers, I don't have any views one way or the other. It was their choice to deal with E-Gold. Nobody forced them to open an account there, right? Sometimes we make good decisions, sometimes bad -- in both cases we have to accept the consequences of our actions. But in any case empathy is not needed here, because unless I missed something here, E-Gold's legitimate customers are not effected by the indictment against E-Gold's principals. Regards James _______________________________________________ Dgcchat mailing list Dgcchat(a)dgcchat.com http://mail.dgcchat.com/mailman/listinfo/dgcchat_dgcchat.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

Now or never
by Cedrick Simmons 05 May '07

05 May '07

straight What evil receive have fasten I join done the man? asked Roger ChillAy, indeed! become daily cried good mistaken mistake old Mr. Wilson. What lit powder coil But cholic the child name did not see fit to let the matter drtrouble SECOND seek arm cat WATCH That's all right, Sir. LYNCH (Embracing Kitty shiver theory slope drab on the sofa, chants deeply.terminal BELLA (Almost put answer sock speechless.) Who are you incog? prison never I am mother's child, hide sweep answered the scarlet vision Better news leather he had control died brake at once! said Hester Prynne Pearl?- Ruby, paid wept question rather!- or Coral!- or breezy Red Rose, at threw FIRST WATCH mental It was only vessel in case sawn of corporal injuri cruel transport (Zoe paint wall whispers to her.)bridge boastfully BLOOM Don't smoke. You ought to eat. wrap detail Cursed dog I shade ZOE thing (In the act doorway.) overdone There's a row on. whip smote overthrew ZOE neck Is he hungry? BLOOM needle (Nods rapidly.) repulsive geoponic Naturally. inquisitively Quite right. Only Yea, woman, boldly wept thou sayest shirt truly! cried park old Roger C poised Sayest army thou so? train cried the Governor. mind Nay, we mig The puncture unfortunate card physician, while burst buy uttering these wo Now, what mortal pipe process attempt island imagination could conceive it! freeze STEPHEN warm (Extends warn his hand mow to her smiling and chantMARION Let soft wed him look, decay deliver the pishogue! Pimp! And scour milk BELLA sign hissing (Laughing.) lock Ho ho ho ho. BLOOM What? rate Where? (He throws advise a shilling pen vivacious on the ta THE advertisement HUE surround turn AND CRY arch (Helterskelterelterwelter) He's Bl Mother, said saw she, what condition does bed forgive the scarlet letterencourage Madam, I know bird not speak of what justly you speak, answered Hesometimes bitter library appear SECOND WATCH It's our duty. Governor Bellingham fit spent front stepped clean through the window int CORNY KELLEHER colourful wait blindly weep Good night, men. And the next above morning, square throw the think first indication the chi hilly Hast idea thou not unusual tortured sea him enough? said Hester, Mother!- meant porter mother!- music sail why does the minister keep his Fie, woman, fie! cried over mountain the potato sort old lady, shaking her BOYLAN (To crime different Bloom, over his shoulder.) question rough You can appl Hangende Hunger,base BLOOM Thank you, sir, elated I drive triangular will, sir. May I bring two(At tore bottle innocent the canvas corner of Beaver Street beneath the scaffo Fragende Frau, KITTY (From the scared for front knot sofa.) Tell us, Florry. Tell us. W Hester pin Prynne, relaxed arrange said he, process fixing his naturally ste THE WATCH (Saluting leather impulse together.) in lay Night, gentlemen. ( BLOOM division brush (Blows.) Providential trace mistook you came on the scene. No!- no!- argue leap he has but concentrate increased perfectly the debt! answere burn What is command geoponic it, good inquisitively Mistress Hibbins? eagerly asked Hold fish thy tongue, square naughty plant child! count answered her mot I can teach my little Pearl warmly what I supply roof bird have learned f No matter, murder reply darling! abecedarian ray responded Mistress Hibbins, (Florry whispers brick nation shiny view to her Whispering lovewords murm

1 0

Relax and take the time
by roberts60wg 05 May '07

05 May '07

1 0

If a relaxing moment turns into the right moment, will you be ready?
by loodyh21y 05 May '07

05 May '07

1 0

Control your weight and appetite
by Colby Wells 05 May '07

05 May '07

Anatrim � The newest and most exciting product for corpulent people is now available � As you could see on ABC Did you see excessive body kilos kill more and more people for every new year? We believe that you hate the unsightly appearance of people like those and the low status they obviously have in modern society. Or, maybe, you�ve not the will to resist an assault of your terrible eating habits. If you see it sounds familiar, then we got something for your consideration! Here Anatrim comes, the later product for the elimination of your body�s extra weight. The astounding thing about Anatrim is it raises the quality of your life by making you crave food less and giving you better mood. Here you may read what people say to us on this product: "This is wonderful! Instead of watching TV constantly and eating any food close at hand I became more interested in doing exercise. Anatrim made me take a step up. I am in a great form now and there are lots of men around me!" Maria H., San Diego "Passive weight reducing was of no help to me. This terrible appetite would just rush in and spoil everything. Once I was told on Anatrim my very best friend by and I was really effected by the information. I had tried to take it, and my wife said that I had changed for the better since then, 5 months later. 30 pounds off and I continue to become slimmer! And you know, it�s rather hot in our bedroom now." Steve Doubt, Chicago Anatrim helps you to understand you doesn�t have such a great need for the constant eating. It raises your spirit up, supplies you with additional energy, and attacks needless kilos. Great thanks to its mighty newly-elaborated formula!! Elicit more!

1 0

Re: [Dgcchat] I was talking about a different James
by James Turk 05 May '07

05 May '07

>By the way, what has been James >Turk's take on all of this so far? > >"He did not use such sane words when commenting publicly on a major >media outlet recently. In fact he pretty much sided with the fed >and trashed e-gold." I'm not sure what "major media outlet" you are referring to, but I did write the email appended below to Bill Murphy at www.lemetropolecafe.com after he received questions from his subscribers. I recommend that you read the indictment in which the feds lay out their case. It is informative, particularly their statement that $145,535,374.26 of payment volume was made through accounts involved with ponzis, credit card fraud and child porn. http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/pr/press_releases/2007/04/CRM_07-301_042707_e… The essence of the indictment rests upon something I discussed on this list many times over the years. There are two different types of currency -- bearer instruments (the cash we carry in our pockets) and account-based currency (bank deposits and the like). Account-based currency is highly regulated, which is possible because the nature of the currency itself enables regulation -- each transaction is recorded in an accounting system (in contrast, to cash transactions). So if you operate an account-based currency, it seems you would be expected to follow the law, doesn't it? Back in June 2003 there was a lengthy exchange on this list that referred to the EZ-BUCKS ponzi. It was just one of several exchanges over the years referring to the ponzis in the gold economy. Here is what I said on June 24, 2003, which itself refers to an even earlier post making the same point: quote By allowing a book entry [i.e., account-based] system to harbor obviously criminal activity like ponzis, the inevitable result to me seems clear. As I noted earlier, "By allowing criminal activity to occur within their system, a currency provider is forcing government involvement and action in the gold economy. This result is inevitable..." I don't think I am belaboring this point or my question by yet once again repeating it, because it is important. "Do the gold currency providers clean up themselves? Or do they wait for...the feds to go in and do it?" unquote So the federal indictments do not come as a surprise to me. Here is what I wrote to Bill Murphy if you are not a subscriber to the Cafe: quote Hi Bill In response to the comments you have received, GoldMoney and E-Gold are very different, with very different business practices, and therefore GoldMoney is not affected in any way by what's happening to E-Gold. Based on my observations over the years, there is some merit to of these charges brought against E-Gold. There have been many investigative news stories (Forbes had a big expose early last year, for example) demonstrating that E-Gold is being used for all kinds of nefarious purposes. As an example, here's an example of a typical HYIP spam I recently received. HYIP is an acronym for High Yield Investment Program a/k/a a ponzi scheme. Welcome to the Electronic Commercial Contribution of Money! ECCM-Invest is a high yield private loan program, backed up by Forex market trading. We have a team who are expert on their filed to manage the funds. Launched our website on February 12, 2007. Our professionals take advantage of currency price fluctuations to make profit for their clients by buying and selling major currencies and stocks. Our mission is to provide our investors with a stable value investment opportunity for their capital,by investing in gold or gold futures electronically to gain a stable rate in return. Online program that mainly focused on FOREX and securities exchange. Before we put the investment programs onto the Internet, we have been on our business offline for several years. However, we are a group of professional experts with years of trading experience, so we are a great team that you can trust. Here is what we offer: - 7% Daily for life paid directly to e-gold - Payments made every work day - Minimum Spend: $1 USD - Maximum Spend: $5000 USD - Multiple spends allowed - One month = 210% - Referral bonus = 2% (E-Gold account number. To send on ours e-mail) We don't make illusions and we don't promise sweet dreams. We simply effectively perform the job. The group of our experts works as one mechanism for achievement of the greatest possible result. P.S. Please have in view of, that Forex works only in the working days. ECCM-Invest ) 2007. All Rights Reserved. Now, to you and me "7% daily for life" is obviously a scam, but you may be surprised to learn that there have multi-million dollar ponzi schemes promulgated through E-Gold, which as a result has provided an open invitation for the federal authorities to walk in and make E-Gold's life difficult. GoldMoney has a zero tolerance policy to ponzis, and we will close any account being used in ponzis. Many HYIP operators list our name on their site in an attempt to give them credibility, but people cannot use GoldMoney to make a payment to the ponzi because they do not have an account with us. E-Gold could also have had a zero tolerance policy to ponzis, but chose not to. The federal indictments indicate that E-Gold allows accounts to be opened and operated anonymously, thereby attracting crooks and scammers to use their system. If E-Gold followed best business practices, they would have closed the account of the ponzi listed in the spam quoted above, as well as the accounts of what I suspect are thousands of other ponzis. But E-Gold apparently turns a blind-eye, allowing these scammers to operate. I think the federal indictments are therefore an inevitable consequence. Additionally, GoldMoney is very different from E-Gold for other reasons. First of all, we are based in the British Channel Islands, and therefore not under US jurisdiction. But more importantly, we are careful that GoldMoney is not used unlawfully. We have a customer acceptance policy just like banks and other financial institutions, so in contrast to E-Gold, one cannot open and operate an account anonymously in GoldMoney. What's more, GoldMoney complies with all anti-money laundering legislation in Jersey, British Channel Islands, whose stringent standards are accepted worldwide. Given that GoldMoney does not tolerate the illicit use of its system and will close customer accounts that are used for illegal activities, GoldMoney therefore follows the same high standard achieved by banks and other financial institutions. So to conclude, my view is that the indictment of the E-Gold principals relates solely to E-Gold's business practices, and is not part of any attempt to dissuade gold's use as currency in legitimate ways. unquote I think the above clearly explains my point of view, but there is another theme that is relevant to this discussion. It is a point that I have made numerous times on this list over the years. It is the comparison of our new gold economy to the time-share industry. Here's a quote from a post in July 2003 referring to a newspaper article about criminal activity in E-Gold: quote I can't say if it is the "norm", but it is typical. And this is what I rail against - press like this hurts the entire industry - the entire gold economy. When time-sharing began circa 30 years ago, some companies allowed crooked salesmen and operators. Pretty soon the crooks were running rampant through the time-sharing industry. Those crooks spoiled that nascent industry, tarnishing the name time-sharing for twenty years, and only then after the name was changed to shared ownership and other variations did it begin to revive. The criminal activity was so bad that even the legitimate operators were painted with the same brush because of all the bad press being given to the crooked operators (bad press just like this one in the St. Louis Post). So is history about to repeat with the gold economy? I hope not, but the outlook is dubious if the crooks are allowed to run rampant throughout the industry. What's sad is that it doesn't have to be that way. There is no technological impediment preventing anyone from stopping obvious criminal activity. All the currency provider has to do is close the account of the crook. In this newspaper article, the crook changed his site, which is obviously a scam, but will his E-Gold account be closed? And even if it is, will E-Gold stop the crook from opening another account and start doing the same thing? unquote The indictment in essence say the same thing, namely, that E-Gold allowed the criminal activity to take place, when all E-Gold had to do was close the account, or even easier, make it less likely the crook will open an account in the first place by establishing a know-your-customer policy that is required these days for all account-based currencies. But there is another point here worth considering. It is how badly the reputation of DGC and the gold economy has been hurt by the E-Gold indictments, which have been well publicized. Hopefully the gold economy can get off the path taken by the nascent time-share industry, and I think these indictments are an important message in that regard. These indictments are saying that criminal activity (ponzis and the like) in the gold economy will not be tolerated, and that's a good thing. Let common sense prevail. The gold economy should be built upon productive economic activity -- not ponzis, credit card fraud and child porn. Regards James _______________________________________________ Dgcchat mailing list Dgcchat(a)dgcchat.com http://mail.dgcchat.com/mailman/listinfo/dgcchat_dgcchat.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

Re: [Dgcchat] I was talking about a different James
by James Turk 05 May '07

05 May '07

>By the way, what has been James >Turk's take on all of this so far? > >"He did not use such sane words when commenting publicly on a major >media outlet recently. In fact he pretty much sided with the fed >and trashed e-gold." I'm not sure what "major media outlet" you are referring to, but I did write the email appended below to Bill Murphy at www.lemetropolecafe.com after he received questions from his subscribers. I recommend that you read the indictment in which the feds lay out their case. It is informative, particularly their statement that $145,535,374.26 of payment volume was made through accounts involved with ponzis, credit card fraud and child porn. http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/pr/press_releases/2007/04/CRM_07-301_042707_e… The essence of the indictment rests upon something I discussed on this list many times over the years. There are two different types of currency -- bearer instruments (the cash we carry in our pockets) and account-based currency (bank deposits and the like). Account-based currency is highly regulated, which is possible because the nature of the currency itself enables regulation -- each transaction is recorded in an accounting system (in contrast, to cash transactions). So if you operate an account-based currency, it seems you would be expected to follow the law, doesn't it? Back in June 2003 there was a lengthy exchange on this list that referred to the EZ-BUCKS ponzi. It was just one of several exchanges over the years referring to the ponzis in the gold economy. Here is what I said on June 24, 2003, which itself refers to an even earlier post making the same point: quote By allowing a book entry [i.e., account-based] system to harbor obviously criminal activity like ponzis, the inevitable result to me seems clear. As I noted earlier, "By allowing criminal activity to occur within their system, a currency provider is forcing government involvement and action in the gold economy. This result is inevitable..." I don't think I am belaboring this point or my question by yet once again repeating it, because it is important. "Do the gold currency providers clean up themselves? Or do they wait for...the feds to go in and do it?" unquote So the federal indictments do not come as a surprise to me. Here is what I wrote to Bill Murphy if you are not a subscriber to the Cafe: quote Hi Bill In response to the comments you have received, GoldMoney and E-Gold are very different, with very different business practices, and therefore GoldMoney is not affected in any way by what's happening to E-Gold. Based on my observations over the years, there is some merit to of these charges brought against E-Gold. There have been many investigative news stories (Forbes had a big expose early last year, for example) demonstrating that E-Gold is being used for all kinds of nefarious purposes. As an example, here's an example of a typical HYIP spam I recently received. HYIP is an acronym for High Yield Investment Program a/k/a a ponzi scheme. Welcome to the Electronic Commercial Contribution of Money! ECCM-Invest is a high yield private loan program, backed up by Forex market trading. We have a team who are expert on their filed to manage the funds. Launched our website on February 12, 2007. Our professionals take advantage of currency price fluctuations to make profit for their clients by buying and selling major currencies and stocks. Our mission is to provide our investors with a stable value investment opportunity for their capital,by investing in gold or gold futures electronically to gain a stable rate in return. Online program that mainly focused on FOREX and securities exchange. Before we put the investment programs onto the Internet, we have been on our business offline for several years. However, we are a group of professional experts with years of trading experience, so we are a great team that you can trust. Here is what we offer: - 7% Daily for life paid directly to e-gold - Payments made every work day - Minimum Spend: $1 USD - Maximum Spend: $5000 USD - Multiple spends allowed - One month = 210% - Referral bonus = 2% (E-Gold account number. To send on ours e-mail) We don't make illusions and we don't promise sweet dreams. We simply effectively perform the job. The group of our experts works as one mechanism for achievement of the greatest possible result. P.S. Please have in view of, that Forex works only in the working days. ECCM-Invest ) 2007. All Rights Reserved. Now, to you and me "7% daily for life" is obviously a scam, but you may be surprised to learn that there have multi-million dollar ponzi schemes promulgated through E-Gold, which as a result has provided an open invitation for the federal authorities to walk in and make E-Gold's life difficult. GoldMoney has a zero tolerance policy to ponzis, and we will close any account being used in ponzis. Many HYIP operators list our name on their site in an attempt to give them credibility, but people cannot use GoldMoney to make a payment to the ponzi because they do not have an account with us. E-Gold could also have had a zero tolerance policy to ponzis, but chose not to. The federal indictments indicate that E-Gold allows accounts to be opened and operated anonymously, thereby attracting crooks and scammers to use their system. If E-Gold followed best business practices, they would have closed the account of the ponzi listed in the spam quoted above, as well as the accounts of what I suspect are thousands of other ponzis. But E-Gold apparently turns a blind-eye, allowing these scammers to operate. I think the federal indictments are therefore an inevitable consequence. Additionally, GoldMoney is very different from E-Gold for other reasons. First of all, we are based in the British Channel Islands, and therefore not under US jurisdiction. But more importantly, we are careful that GoldMoney is not used unlawfully. We have a customer acceptance policy just like banks and other financial institutions, so in contrast to E-Gold, one cannot open and operate an account anonymously in GoldMoney. What's more, GoldMoney complies with all anti-money laundering legislation in Jersey, British Channel Islands, whose stringent standards are accepted worldwide. Given that GoldMoney does not tolerate the illicit use of its system and will close customer accounts that are used for illegal activities, GoldMoney therefore follows the same high standard achieved by banks and other financial institutions. So to conclude, my view is that the indictment of the E-Gold principals relates solely to E-Gold's business practices, and is not part of any attempt to dissuade gold's use as currency in legitimate ways. unquote I think the above clearly explains my point of view, but there is another theme that is relevant to this discussion. It is a point that I have made numerous times on this list over the years. It is the comparison of our new gold economy to the time-share industry. Here's a quote from a post in July 2003 referring to a newspaper article about criminal activity in E-Gold: quote I can't say if it is the "norm", but it is typical. And this is what I rail against - press like this hurts the entire industry - the entire gold economy. When time-sharing began circa 30 years ago, some companies allowed crooked salesmen and operators. Pretty soon the crooks were running rampant through the time-sharing industry. Those crooks spoiled that nascent industry, tarnishing the name time-sharing for twenty years, and only then after the name was changed to shared ownership and other variations did it begin to revive. The criminal activity was so bad that even the legitimate operators were painted with the same brush because of all the bad press being given to the crooked operators (bad press just like this one in the St. Louis Post). So is history about to repeat with the gold economy? I hope not, but the outlook is dubious if the crooks are allowed to run rampant throughout the industry. What's sad is that it doesn't have to be that way. There is no technological impediment preventing anyone from stopping obvious criminal activity. All the currency provider has to do is close the account of the crook. In this newspaper article, the crook changed his site, which is obviously a scam, but will his E-Gold account be closed? And even if it is, will E-Gold stop the crook from opening another account and start doing the same thing? unquote The indictment in essence say the same thing, namely, that E-Gold allowed the criminal activity to take place, when all E-Gold had to do was close the account, or even easier, make it less likely the crook will open an account in the first place by establishing a know-your-customer policy that is required these days for all account-based currencies. But there is another point here worth considering. It is how badly the reputation of DGC and the gold economy has been hurt by the E-Gold indictments, which have been well publicized. Hopefully the gold economy can get off the path taken by the nascent time-share industry, and I think these indictments are an important message in that regard. These indictments are saying that criminal activity (ponzis and the like) in the gold economy will not be tolerated, and that's a good thing. Let common sense prevail. The gold economy should be built upon productive economic activity -- not ponzis, credit card fraud and child porn. Regards James _______________________________________________ Dgcchat mailing list Dgcchat(a)dgcchat.com http://mail.dgcchat.com/mailman/listinfo/dgcchat_dgcchat.com --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

Pounds down, mood up
by Manuel Sanford 05 May '07

05 May '07

Anatrim – The newest and most enchanting product for weighty people available – As were seen on ABC. Do you hold in your memory all the situations when you plead to yourself to do anything for being delivered from this fastly growing number of kilos? Luckily, now no major price is to be paid. Thanks to Anatrim, the earth-shaking pound-melting mixture, you can get healthier mode of life and become really thinner. Take a look at what our customers write! "It’s unbearably difficult to confess but I was an awful food addict. I greedily swallowed up all this rubbish and could not stop. This ruinous passion stopped when I started taking Anatrim! Holy God, my appetite decreased, mood increased and I’m the happiest person in the world 26 pounds in 2.3 months. I can tell you now I turned to the happiest person in the world!" Lusia R., Washington "I had problems with over-weight since a boy. It’s difficult to imagine how I hated being derided at school. I abhorred my plumpness and I detested myself. After trying this and that I learned about Anatrim. It literally pulled me out of this awful nightmare! Many thanks and a great respect to you, fellows." Charley Mock, Bellevue WA "Do you know what? My marriage was saved thanks to Anatrim! I went into this circle, depression – more eating – more depression. My wife was about to leave me as I was turning in overweight psycho. My best friend pointed to your site and I ordered up Anatrim at the same time. The final result was great, my appetite came to normal level, I was often in a good mood, and, of course, I tightened my belt with no regrets. And you know, the bed became cool also!" Karl There is a lot of thanks left by happy people taking Anatrim. Don’t you gonna join the tens of thousands of slim women and men and try this all-natural appetite-decreasing energy raising product now! Don’t decline your opportunity!

1 0

Re: [Dgcchat] I was talking about a different James
by R.A. Hettinga 05 May '07

05 May '07

For those on cypherpunks who don't know him, James Turk, one of the original gold-bugs, actually holds the internet digital gold *patent*, much to the consternation of e-gold when it un-submerged about 8 years into their operating life. Turk and his son Geoff and run a considerably more finance-oriented (as opposed to liberty-oriented, which I think it would safe to say is the flag that e-gold sails under, though having met them both, I'd say that James and Geoff are more realist than statist) gold "currency" site called goldmoney.com, which is chartered and run out of Jersey in the Channel Islands. He used to be a banker with Citicorp, etc., during the late 1970's-80's, and comes by his gold-bugginess old-school. :-). ...of course, Uncle is *supposed* to trot out the four horsemen of the financial|etc infocalypse at times like this, so it's no surprise. Cheers, RAH ------ --- begin forwarded text

1 0

Your V1agra 0rder #982981
by Latonya Walter 05 May '07

05 May '07

Hi, We have cheapest Cial1s S0ft T4bs and V1agra S0ft T4bs online. Visit US He4lthc4re Inc. at: http://www.aperffedo.com/

1 0