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Fwd: (micro)payments for anonymous routing in Tor?
by R.A. Hettinga 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Gee, this sounds familiar. :-) I remember talking about cash-settled routing with Vinnie Moscaritolo, while bouncing around in his bumper-sticker-festooned Toyota pickup when I did my first Apple talk in 1995 or so. It's kinda like Feynman's "patent" for the atomic powered bomber, one of the first things you bump into when you think about how small bearer transactions could go. No doubt the Agorics guys were talking about something equivalent in the "digital silk road" days; turtles all the way down, and so on. Cash-settled routing is essentially a streaming cash application, just like streaming music, or a whole lot of other things, if you hop back and forth across the particle/wave phenomenon that is the world of internet protocols. The simple way to deal with double spending of streaming coins is to assay (statistical sample) the coins in real-time, do a redeem-reissue on assay, and to do a redeem/reissue on all your coins after completion of the transaction to make sure that the coins you have aren't double spent. Or not, I suppose. The risk is entirely yours, same as it ever was with off-line or, in the case of streaming, quasi-offline, transactions. As an underwriter (I hate the word bank for various reasons), I would assay coins randomly on redemption and pay for the whole lot to save myself and my customers time and bandwidth. As for the coins themselves we were looking at Shamir/Rivest's micromint for this the first time around, but Nicko wrote a paper for FC00 showing that simple rsa-signed coins are more scalable from case zero. BTW, I think of "coins" as things requiring probabilistic settlement like this, and "notes" as things requiring individual settlement, like blind-signature instruments. Obviously, Moore's Law determines the "thermocline" ("pecunicline"? :-)) for this, the boundry layer between "coins" and "notes". I chose probabilistic settlement, because micromint, and other streaming coin applications, pretty much require a factory to produce the coins, just like it takes a whole factory to make one penny, the first being the most expensive, economies of scale, and all that. Of course, Rivest/Micali's "Peppercoin" is the exception that proves the notes/coins decision-rule, because, while a completely book-entry transaction, it's probabilistically settled, Peppercoin being a "lottery" where you write an arbitrarily large number of biometric- identity checks and pay only one of them. So Pepper*coin* is really Pepper*check*, but, obviously, that name would probably make the VCs eyes glaze over, so its just as well they didn't use it. Anyway, for TOR itself, like anonymous remailers, cash settlement, streaming or otherwise, is necessary, because the economics of the idea at the moment is entirely transfer-priced, meaning that, like open source -- or other advertisement-supported media :-) -- the product is included "free" in transactions for other things. Since anonymity is, shall we say, atomistic in its necessity, it's hard to support it with something else besides cold, hard, cash. Cheers, RAH Begin forwarded message: >From: Eugen Leitl <eugen(a)leitl.org> >Date: September 24, 2008 4:43:14 AM GMT-04:00 >To: cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: Re: (micro)payments for anonymous routing in Tor? > >----- Forwarded message from Josh Albrecht <thejash(a)gmail.com> ----- > >From: Josh Albrecht <thejash(a)gmail.com> >Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:44:39 -0400 >To: or-talk(a)freehaven.net >Subject: Re: (micro)payments for anonymous routing in Tor? >Reply-To: or-talk(a)freehaven.net > >>* payments turn it into a service with an expected outcome. >>Assumably >>(among others) that is 1) your anonymity is maintained and 2) your >>payment >>is completed successfully. What happens _when_ something goes >>wrong? As of >>now, the first thing that Tor says is "This is experimental >>software. Do not >>rely on it for strong anonymity. " It would have to add, "Do not >>rely on >>this to successfully route your financial transactions" and while >>the first >>is a warning most can accept, the second may really scare us. > >This came up on IRC as well. Someone pointed out that the paper's >assumption of "honest but curious" banks might not be valid (ie, the >bank might cheat). However, there are a few counter-arguments to that >that I see. > >For the S-coins, it will be immediately obvious to a relay that the >bank is cheating, because the relay can validate whether the payment >is good or not on its own. For the A-coins, the answer is trickier. >The relays can still check the validity of the payment, but the client >could be "double-spending". If the bank pays A-coins even in the case >of double-spending, the bank can never cheat. The downside is that >anonymous clients can then cheat to get slightly more value for >A-coins than they put in. This is a serious problem because it would >allow the client to pay multiple relays that they control, essentially >duplicating their money for free. > >Thus, the bank must decline all payment for double-spent A-coins, or >at least allow only one payment for any A-coin. However, clients can >still validate that the bank is not cheating by withdrawing and >depositing A-coins at any time in an attempt to catch the bank >cheating. This is more of an economic argument--the bank has an >incentive to maintain user trust so that it can continue to do >business. The value gained by cheating some users of A-coins would >likely be less than the expected gain from NOT having to worry about >the risk of someone demonstrating that the bank is cheating. > >Also, the values at stake are: 1. very small, and 2. greater than >the current profit of zero for relay operators. It's not that relay >operators have to rely on Tor for their financial security--they >could, with this scheme, make some modest amount to cover their costs. >No single relay operator should ever have a significant amount of >money in the system that could possibly be at risk. > >>On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:05 AM, <tor-operator(a)sky-haven.net> >>wrote: >>How do you pay anonymously yet have the system fairly permit "paid" >>traffic to >>have higher priority? With anonymity intact, how do you audit and >>enforce >>this policy? >> > >I think your first question was about how to ensure that giving >priority to certain traffic does not introduce any new attacks against >anonymity? In that case, I'm not sure, but it is not at all clear to >me that this would decrease anonymity. Does anyone see such an >attack? > >As for the second question, I think it was: what prevents relay >operators from choking off all unpaid traffic, in order to maximize >profits? As an answer to that, I'd say that not much prevents them >from doing that. Perhaps there are anonymity benefits to allowing >unpaid traffic as well (since there would be more ambiguity as to the >original source of the traffic). There might also be ethical benefits >to allowing unpaid traffic, ie, much the same motivation for the >current operators of Tor relays. Finally, if this were the default >behavior, novice users would be unlikely to change it, and that alone >might be enough bandwidth for unpaid users. > >Thanks for the thoughts! >- Josh > >----- End forwarded message ----- >-- >Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org >______________________________________________________________ >ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org >8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Lucrative update
by Patrick 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Lucrative release 4 is out. I know many people are used to seeing releases numbered like "0.000001", "0.000002", "2.0.3.0.14.657" etc. but release numbering systems are essentially arbitrary in nature so don't get excited as Lucrative goes toward version 50+. This release is a fairly minor one, but included some changes such as the client name that I wanted to get out as soon as possible. There is also a new development weblog at http://lucrative.thirdhost.com/weblog/. I went through an install with someone over IRC last night and made a blog entry summarizing the install notes. I recommend reading the notes before attempting an install. I am glad to help with an install, drop me a note at patrick(a)lfcgate.com if you have trouble. Some documentation on the various entities in the Lucrative system is now available on the website, http://lucrative.thirdhost.com/documentation.php but more is needed and coming. If Lucrative is interesting to you, please consider helping in any way you can: Feedback Installation reports Suggestions Comments Criticism Feature requests Source code patches Donations Are all very much welcomed. And criticism is more useful to me than praise. My sincere thanks to everyone who has participated so far by installing, testing, providing feedback, spreading the word, and donating. And finally I just received word from SourceForge that the project registration for Lucrative has been approved. Regards, Patrick -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> mQGiBD5ECKcRBADUvjXHwLtxIyS4AyjBs/dFtN6rdeP18Fhzh1hD5fJwkFevqY9Z I1ASROTh6eXYF7pU5sEvbcPshHyTB41ZtTqZvQvpwWN0fUzOuutuI0mtC5UPp9Rz j47SdWLdEXNHjwnHDCYSyqtqZu8GujGRQybR0eP3NIh/NwbSDUKdgz7IjwCg//Jo UtjP3zUFobm/0UYA+CJ5krED/091x9Js0gwNwvjbzM8DqO+r8qNz0kXI13FkrPRk QNd37lxt6m2m8HZD1WYM2wKwtMzHSwJcWzaDZ/tNc+ppYjzpw0EQCh9FqjGs8Vau guF6PA1M8lJTCcLKaL4e7ynic+PAw5Xa/tdOYgFCG+eLMU5RLvzRCYoOLIjgMJLJ yG98BACAMlDmFVYgC/UKvzZmHfZ5CtCKd8sPfCXrYLu5NeFRE0LR6D6zjzmhi1xX okfreR5o3T/y78VBM98js+m2/+7Z0AElqydeW/RnV1zqwDGjDr9z2MgARf3yLAbs n3BU8Fz61RwvHy6cRkT+2dR2f69QQUSpkupvLwZIGX/iwm4uKLQdUGF0cmljayA8 cGF0cmlja0BsZmNnYXRlLmNvbT6JAE4EEBECAA4FAj5ECKcECwMCAQIZAQAKCRBb mvb9yuOVfaA2AKDAu5tDj9F2KI8cJMrKKkQRAcUyxACg6/bei7lUJH+E5igJqGRx SjKrRA65BA0EPkQIpxAQAPkYoH5aBmF6Q5CV3AVsh4bsYezNRR8O2OCjecbJ3HoL rOQ/40aUtjBKU9d8AhZIgLUV5SmZqZ8HdNP/46HFliBOmGW42A3uEF2rthccUdhQ yiJXQym+lehWKzh4XAvb+ExN1eOqRsz7zhfoKp0UYeOEqU/Rg4Soebbvj6dDRgjG zB13VyQ4SuLE8OiOE2eXTpITYfbb6yUOF/32mPfIfHmwch04dfv2wXPEgxEmK0Ng w+Po1gr9oSgmC66prrNlD6IAUwGgfNaroxIe+g8qzh90hE/K8xfzpEDp19J3tkIt AjbBJstoXp18mAkKjX4t7eRdefXUkk+bGI78KqdLfDL2Qle3CH8IF3KiutapQvMF 6PlTETlPtvFuuUs4INoBp1ajFOmPQFXz0AfGy0OplK33TGSGSfgMg71l6RfUodNQ +PVZX9x2Uk89PY3bzpnhV5JZzf24rnRPxfx2vIPFRzBhznzJZv8V+bv9kV7HAarT W56NoKVyOtQa8L9GAFgr5fSI/VhOSdvNILSd5JEHNmszbDgNRR0PfIizHHxbLY72 88kjwEPwpVsYjY67VYy4XTjTNP18F1dDox0YbN4zISy1Kv884bEpQBgRjXyEpwpy 1obEAxnIByl6ypUM2Zafq9AKUJsCRtMIPWakXUGfnHy9iUsiGSa6q6Jew1XrPdYX AAICD/wKwtF7Y4NKBe8PQ6jDbjWziiTv9Ac/EnRTJDQEoqgLa2LyE+6Ahw/VPGvp mfxkD2MKxC9E7kYVmasn6sHnSpvAv3e7O1Bqbo/qLzzCcJQ5VCurZ+elRM1GZ4Oc fM19FPKutb0/JFEv0nrqS4BGkF7WFBbu5dKYl/GIO7Co1mAerFIb719dOwMPVEIz OT08u8uB9jyR8gEElf+CVuNfOUkrUGg4HS4SbmTTrCSz3/8n5PkquSuAyjCB/dwM ZsZwA0/TTR8sDYlmlf9xPj5PGpGnV9OUwfig6eE0eWtRFeasmz0uiX+yp45ABtNh 6EXP/PFaBgXi9omXXjeeFYfpDvmfA6izvTIQfXTV6V9ZWrBfXarM+GQ+6guXWVbd 9fXvmCr982LkzuKQrK1OpRXBMUapXL+tOy/LYzz91InqKKhgPNGa12fvotZ4LzlM iqoM+Hpz5L9B5We1Ph0lD6RBVXDCqd+P8extnY/7AaDy7tC0UghaAaUuEZXJQPIc oQ3QGbpjM0nGe/VZN5EZhljau0NNENFaU56cOpvOhcO04gLGNNc2NS+rIpTMsaHh o1CG90c5zZZJuUbyx0mIHriNQXDgEwunSZPQorKK9KSppyyjeuOyi5F/mBBPXeyT weLhLqLvAr9se/+Z3aQvMADJi8zUZtGggLTw+N9R5XSwtSh2R4kARgQYEQIABgUC PkQIpwAKCRBbmvb9yuOVfWayAKC+mBhHdn1XZ5uH0RocAyJ32hx2kgCePyhB+IqM TjWLDLarQxcPYhbkFi4= =nx1M -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)wasabisystems.com

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[tt] NS: Virtual entrepreneurs and 'griefers' spoil the fantasy of online worlds
by Premise Checker 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Virtual entrepreneurs and 'griefers' spoil the fantasy of online worlds http://technology.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19526196.000&print=true * 01 September 2007 * Jim Giles IT SHOULD have been a coming-of-age moment. In December 2006, Anshe Chung, the most prominent of Second Life's entrepreneurs, was interviewed about her burgeoning [12]property portfolio, which she says is worth more than $1 million. It was a milestone to mark the emergence of a mature and corporate side to virtual worlds. But then, for a full 15 minutes, the virtual room in which she was being interviewed was invaded by [13]flying penises. Two months later, something similar happened. The Second Life headquarters of US presidential candidate John Edwards was attacked by a gang known as the Patriotic Nigras, who [14]plastered the building with objects including faeces (see Picture). Other residents say they have received racist materials from the Nigras. To anyone familiar with Second Life, airborne genitalia and offensive comments come as no surprise. Griefers - the disruptive residents who create such disturbances - have been active since the virtual world's earliest days. Since many residents are attracted to Second Life precisely because of its anything-goes ethos, such behaviour is generally tolerated. Now that Wild West spirit is under threat. With tens of thousands of denizens logged in at any one time and [15]millions of dollars' worth of transactions taking place in a single year (see Chart), a class of entrepreneurs is emerging who see griefers not just as an annoyance but as a potential source of lost revenue. That can simply encourage the griefers, some of whom are irritated by residents who seem to take life in Second Life too seriously, but it also prompts entrepreneurs to turn to [16]real-world courts to settle disputes. That in turn is cause for concern for residents who believe virtual worlds' value lies in their freedom from real-world laws and norms. "As the worlds industrialise we're going to see more appeals to the law," says Ren Reynolds, an expert on virtual worlds based in London who is establishing [17]a think tank to explore their policy implications. "The worry is that legislators will say that virtual worlds should be like the real world." That might wreck the main reason for using virtual worlds, which, despite rampant commercialisation, many still view as fantasy spaces. Last week New Scientist reported how virtual worlds can enhance social interactions, by facilitating meetings between people who wouldn't have that opportunity in real life or allowing them to step into the shoes of others (25 August, p 26). But it is also clear that virtual worlds are ripe for abusive behaviour, and that the naively enthusiastic attitude of some residents may even provoke it. Studies of griefer psychology are limited, but the Nigras' former leader, "Mudkips Acronym", who declined to give his real-life name, is happy to talk about his gang's motivations. He says that the group, which boasts between 35 and 60 members, is motivated by "laughs" and a desire to annoy the Second Lifers "who take their 'metaverse' enormously seriously". Despite the fact that the Nigras hurl racist abuse at some residents (see "Second Life - under attack"), Acronym says that he is not aware of anyone who is "truly racist". Rather, "we do anything we can to shock people". In the past, online communities have either endured residents like Acronym or acted together to punish them. In World of Warcraft (WoW), an online game full of elves and dragons where players compete for gold and weapons, users often group themselves into [18]guilds that police themselves, so that certain tasks, such as dividing the spoils of a raid, can be carried out fairly. Linden Lab, the San Francisco firm that runs Second Life, is also happy to let its residents settle their own disputes. The company says its goal is "neither to be a 'government' nor to foist one upon the residents". Rather, it hopes to "foster a self-governing community where residents are empowered to act on things they feel strongly about, and adjudicate such disputes". Self-policing is sometimes so effective that it can be used not just to punish residents, but also to wrest control of a virtual world from its owner. Last year, that's exactly what residents of WoW did when Blizzard Entertainment, of Irvine, California, which runs the world, [19]tried to block an attempt to form a guild for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (GLBT) people. Once word spread, players organised protest marches in WoW, says Reynolds. Some wore pink armour as a symbol of support for the proposed guild. Bloggers also criticised the decision. Eventually Blizzard backed down, and now several GLBT guilds exist. The approach appears to be breaking down, however, as entrepreneurial residents call upon real-world justice systems to settle disputes. "Most people consider virtual worlds to be like the Wild West, places where the law doesn't apply," says Sean Kane, an attorney with Drakeford & Kane in New York City who specialises in internet law. "But the law will catch up." Financial disputes are the most common trigger for legal action. Last month, Second Lifer Kevin Alderman filed suit against a resident known as Volkov Catteneo over Alderman's SexGen bed, which animates Second Life avatars so that they are able to perform more than 150 sexual acts. Alderman's suit alleges that Catteneo, whose real-life name is not known, is selling a pirated version of the bed, which normally sells for $45. Another virtual entrepreneur who has contemplated - but not yet initiated - legal action is Catherine Fitzpatrick, a Second Life real estate dealer who goes by the Second Life name of [20]Prokofy Neva. She says she regularly receives obscene and racist messages from the Nigras, some of which have led to tenants leaving her properties. "I don't view Second Life as a fantasy world," says Fitzpatrick. "I'm looking at it as a business." That attitude makes some residents anxious. "The worry is that legislators will say virtual worlds should be the same as the real world and make very naive laws," Reynolds says. It is not only business activities that might bring a legal clampdown to virtual worlds. Second Life has a long tradition of adult users adopting childlike avatars, and sometimes getting their characters to engage in sexual acts with adult avatars. Users have debated whether this amounts to virtual child pornography, but since Second Life is viewed as a fantasy world, and all participants are adults, such behaviour has generally been tolerated. In May, however, a German TV show covered the practice and reported details to the police. Linden Lab subsequently banned two of the residents involved. Meanwhile gambling, which is illegal in most US states but widespread in Second Life, has also taken a hit. In July, Linden Lab decided to shut down its virtual casinos after receiving a visit from the FBI. Angry users on the firm's blog accused the company of eroding the freedom associated with an experience that was, after all, designed to be different from normal life. "Welcome to Real Life 2," wrote one user. "Enjoy your stay!" Will big online worlds like Second Life and WoW survive these legal attacks, perhaps by adopting the protected status that sports enjoy (see "Sporting solution")? Or will the pressure from commercially minded users eradicate the anything-goes spirit, perhaps allowing smaller and freer worlds to take their place? Read about a host of planned virtual experiences in next week's instalment of this New Scientist report. Sporting solution The fantasy inherent to virtual worlds is under attack from commercially minded residents and real-world laws. Is it possible to keep everyone happy? One solution is to look to sport for guidance, says New York attorney Sean Kane. When players take to the rugby field, they experience tackles that would be classed as assaults if they took place anywhere else. Courts understand this and create what Kane calls a "magic circle" around on-field behaviour. When disputes arise, the courts tend to respect the arbitration systems established by sport authorities, even though such committees have no formal legal standing. Virtual worlds might earn the same respect from courts if they ensure that the arbitration systems established by residents are fair and transparent. Another option is to have different types of virtual spaces, says [21]Ren Reynolds, who studies virtual worlds, with some regulated to keep entrepreneurs happy, and others free, for people who just want to have fun. Second Life, however, is one space that could face more legal problems. The site currently [22]reserves the right to terminate a user's account "for any or no reason", destroying their virtual assets. If the company does not start to provide residents with genuine ownership, some will feel compelled to go to the courts, Kane says. Related Articles FBI investigates virtual casinos in Second Life http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn11533 4 April 2007 Online games, real-life crimes http://technology.newscientist.com/article/mg19025521.700 20 May 2006 "Grey goo" engulfs virtual world http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn10616 20 November 2006 Game company sued over virtual land squabble http://technology.newscientist.com/article/dn9189 18 May 2006 Web letter: What Life? http://technology.newscientist.com/article/mg19526221.100 22 September 2007 Weblinks Anshe Chung's Second Life property portfolio http://dreamland.anshechung.com/ Ren Reynolds http://www.ren-reynolds.com/ Videos and podcasts about the Patriotic Nigras http://www.mefeedia.com/tags/nigras/ Second Life http://secondlife.com/ World of Warcraft guilds http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/guilds.html Drakeford & Kane http://www.drakefordkane.com/whatsnew.htm Virtual Policy Network http://www.virtualpolicy.net/ Prokofy Neva, Second Life http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/about.html Second Life's policy on wagering http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/07/25/wagering-in-second-life-new-policy/ Linden Lab Terms of Service http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php Survey of developers in the Second Life directory http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/07/10/survey-of-developers-in-the-second-li… References 11. http://adserver.adtech.de/?adlink|2.0|289|113580|1|170|ADTECH;grp=125608041…; 12. http://dreamland.anshechung.com/ 13. http://www.secretlair.com/index.php?/clickableculture/entry/anshe_chung_cou… 14. http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2007/2/27/21847/2507 15. http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/07/10/survey-of-developers-in-the-second-li… 16. http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/dn9189-game-company-sued-ov… 17. http://www.virtualpolicy.net/ 18. http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/guilds.html 19. http://news.com.com/Online+game+warns+gay-lesbian+guild/2100-1043_3-6033112… 20. http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/about.html 21. http://www.ren-reynolds.com/ 22. http://secondlife.com/corporate/tos.php E-mail me if you have problems getting the referenced articles. _______________________________________________ tt mailing list tt(a)postbiota.org http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Fwd: (micro)payments for anonymous routing in Tor?
by R.A. Hettinga 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Gee, this sounds familiar. :-) I remember talking about cash-settled routing with Vinnie Moscaritolo, while bouncing around in his bumper-sticker-festooned Toyota pickup when I did my first Apple talk in 1995 or so. It's kinda like Feynman's "patent" for the atomic powered bomber, one of the first things you bump into when you think about how small bearer transactions could go. No doubt the Agorics guys were talking about something equivalent in the "digital silk road" days; turtles all the way down, and so on. Cash-settled routing is essentially a streaming cash application, just like streaming music, or a whole lot of other things, if you hop back and forth across the particle/wave phenomenon that is the world of internet protocols. The simple way to deal with double spending of streaming coins is to assay (statistical sample) the coins in real-time, do a redeem-reissue on assay, and to do a redeem/reissue on all your coins after completion of the transaction to make sure that the coins you have aren't double spent. Or not, I suppose. The risk is entirely yours, same as it ever was with off-line or, in the case of streaming, quasi-offline, transactions. As an underwriter (I hate the word bank for various reasons), I would assay coins randomly on redemption and pay for the whole lot to save myself and my customers time and bandwidth. As for the coins themselves we were looking at Shamir/Rivest's micromint for this the first time around, but Nicko wrote a paper for FC00 showing that simple rsa-signed coins are more scalable from case zero. BTW, I think of "coins" as things requiring probabilistic settlement like this, and "notes" as things requiring individual settlement, like blind-signature instruments. Obviously, Moore's Law determines the "thermocline" ("pecunicline"? :-)) for this, the boundry layer between "coins" and "notes". I chose probabilistic settlement, because micromint, and other streaming coin applications, pretty much require a factory to produce the coins, just like it takes a whole factory to make one penny, the first being the most expensive, economies of scale, and all that. Of course, Rivest/Micali's "Peppercoin" is the exception that proves the notes/coins decision-rule, because, while a completely book-entry transaction, it's probabilistically settled, Peppercoin being a "lottery" where you write an arbitrarily large number of biometric- identity checks and pay only one of them. So Pepper*coin* is really Pepper*check*, but, obviously, that name would probably make the VCs eyes glaze over, so its just as well they didn't use it. Anyway, for TOR itself, like anonymous remailers, cash settlement, streaming or otherwise, is necessary, because the economics of the idea at the moment is entirely transfer-priced, meaning that, like open source -- or other advertisement-supported media :-) -- the product is included "free" in transactions for other things. Since anonymity is, shall we say, atomistic in its necessity, it's hard to support it with something else besides cold, hard, cash. Cheers, RAH Begin forwarded message: >From: Eugen Leitl <eugen(a)leitl.org> >Date: September 24, 2008 4:43:14 AM GMT-04:00 >To: cypherpunks(a)al-qaeda.net >Subject: Re: (micro)payments for anonymous routing in Tor? > >----- Forwarded message from Josh Albrecht <thejash(a)gmail.com> ----- > >From: Josh Albrecht <thejash(a)gmail.com> >Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:44:39 -0400 >To: or-talk(a)freehaven.net >Subject: Re: (micro)payments for anonymous routing in Tor? >Reply-To: or-talk(a)freehaven.net > >>* payments turn it into a service with an expected outcome. >>Assumably >>(among others) that is 1) your anonymity is maintained and 2) your >>payment >>is completed successfully. What happens _when_ something goes >>wrong? As of >>now, the first thing that Tor says is "This is experimental >>software. Do not >>rely on it for strong anonymity. " It would have to add, "Do not >>rely on >>this to successfully route your financial transactions" and while >>the first >>is a warning most can accept, the second may really scare us. > >This came up on IRC as well. Someone pointed out that the paper's >assumption of "honest but curious" banks might not be valid (ie, the >bank might cheat). However, there are a few counter-arguments to that >that I see. > >For the S-coins, it will be immediately obvious to a relay that the >bank is cheating, because the relay can validate whether the payment >is good or not on its own. For the A-coins, the answer is trickier. >The relays can still check the validity of the payment, but the client >could be "double-spending". If the bank pays A-coins even in the case >of double-spending, the bank can never cheat. The downside is that >anonymous clients can then cheat to get slightly more value for >A-coins than they put in. This is a serious problem because it would >allow the client to pay multiple relays that they control, essentially >duplicating their money for free. > >Thus, the bank must decline all payment for double-spent A-coins, or >at least allow only one payment for any A-coin. However, clients can >still validate that the bank is not cheating by withdrawing and >depositing A-coins at any time in an attempt to catch the bank >cheating. This is more of an economic argument--the bank has an >incentive to maintain user trust so that it can continue to do >business. The value gained by cheating some users of A-coins would >likely be less than the expected gain from NOT having to worry about >the risk of someone demonstrating that the bank is cheating. > >Also, the values at stake are: 1. very small, and 2. greater than >the current profit of zero for relay operators. It's not that relay >operators have to rely on Tor for their financial security--they >could, with this scheme, make some modest amount to cover their costs. >No single relay operator should ever have a significant amount of >money in the system that could possibly be at risk. > >>On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 12:05 AM, <tor-operator(a)sky-haven.net> >>wrote: >>How do you pay anonymously yet have the system fairly permit "paid" >>traffic to >>have higher priority? With anonymity intact, how do you audit and >>enforce >>this policy? >> > >I think your first question was about how to ensure that giving >priority to certain traffic does not introduce any new attacks against >anonymity? In that case, I'm not sure, but it is not at all clear to >me that this would decrease anonymity. Does anyone see such an >attack? > >As for the second question, I think it was: what prevents relay >operators from choking off all unpaid traffic, in order to maximize >profits? As an answer to that, I'd say that not much prevents them >from doing that. Perhaps there are anonymity benefits to allowing >unpaid traffic as well (since there would be more ambiguity as to the >original source of the traffic). There might also be ethical benefits >to allowing unpaid traffic, ie, much the same motivation for the >current operators of Tor relays. Finally, if this were the default >behavior, novice users would be unlikely to change it, and that alone >might be enough bandwidth for unpaid users. > >Thanks for the thoughts! >- Josh > >----- End forwarded message ----- >-- >Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org >______________________________________________________________ >ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org >8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Lucrative update
by Patrick 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Lucrative release 4 is out. I know many people are used to seeing releases numbered like "0.000001", "0.000002", "2.0.3.0.14.657" etc. but release numbering systems are essentially arbitrary in nature so don't get excited as Lucrative goes toward version 50+. This release is a fairly minor one, but included some changes such as the client name that I wanted to get out as soon as possible. There is also a new development weblog at http://lucrative.thirdhost.com/weblog/. I went through an install with someone over IRC last night and made a blog entry summarizing the install notes. I recommend reading the notes before attempting an install. I am glad to help with an install, drop me a note at patrick(a)lfcgate.com if you have trouble. Some documentation on the various entities in the Lucrative system is now available on the website, http://lucrative.thirdhost.com/documentation.php but more is needed and coming. If Lucrative is interesting to you, please consider helping in any way you can: Feedback Installation reports Suggestions Comments Criticism Feature requests Source code patches Donations Are all very much welcomed. And criticism is more useful to me than praise. My sincere thanks to everyone who has participated so far by installing, testing, providing feedback, spreading the word, and donating. And finally I just received word from SourceForge that the project registration for Lucrative has been approved. Regards, Patrick -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.5.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com> mQGiBD5ECKcRBADUvjXHwLtxIyS4AyjBs/dFtN6rdeP18Fhzh1hD5fJwkFevqY9Z I1ASROTh6eXYF7pU5sEvbcPshHyTB41ZtTqZvQvpwWN0fUzOuutuI0mtC5UPp9Rz j47SdWLdEXNHjwnHDCYSyqtqZu8GujGRQybR0eP3NIh/NwbSDUKdgz7IjwCg//Jo UtjP3zUFobm/0UYA+CJ5krED/091x9Js0gwNwvjbzM8DqO+r8qNz0kXI13FkrPRk QNd37lxt6m2m8HZD1WYM2wKwtMzHSwJcWzaDZ/tNc+ppYjzpw0EQCh9FqjGs8Vau guF6PA1M8lJTCcLKaL4e7ynic+PAw5Xa/tdOYgFCG+eLMU5RLvzRCYoOLIjgMJLJ yG98BACAMlDmFVYgC/UKvzZmHfZ5CtCKd8sPfCXrYLu5NeFRE0LR6D6zjzmhi1xX okfreR5o3T/y78VBM98js+m2/+7Z0AElqydeW/RnV1zqwDGjDr9z2MgARf3yLAbs n3BU8Fz61RwvHy6cRkT+2dR2f69QQUSpkupvLwZIGX/iwm4uKLQdUGF0cmljayA8 cGF0cmlja0BsZmNnYXRlLmNvbT6JAE4EEBECAA4FAj5ECKcECwMCAQIZAQAKCRBb mvb9yuOVfaA2AKDAu5tDj9F2KI8cJMrKKkQRAcUyxACg6/bei7lUJH+E5igJqGRx SjKrRA65BA0EPkQIpxAQAPkYoH5aBmF6Q5CV3AVsh4bsYezNRR8O2OCjecbJ3HoL rOQ/40aUtjBKU9d8AhZIgLUV5SmZqZ8HdNP/46HFliBOmGW42A3uEF2rthccUdhQ yiJXQym+lehWKzh4XAvb+ExN1eOqRsz7zhfoKp0UYeOEqU/Rg4Soebbvj6dDRgjG zB13VyQ4SuLE8OiOE2eXTpITYfbb6yUOF/32mPfIfHmwch04dfv2wXPEgxEmK0Ng w+Po1gr9oSgmC66prrNlD6IAUwGgfNaroxIe+g8qzh90hE/K8xfzpEDp19J3tkIt AjbBJstoXp18mAkKjX4t7eRdefXUkk+bGI78KqdLfDL2Qle3CH8IF3KiutapQvMF 6PlTETlPtvFuuUs4INoBp1ajFOmPQFXz0AfGy0OplK33TGSGSfgMg71l6RfUodNQ +PVZX9x2Uk89PY3bzpnhV5JZzf24rnRPxfx2vIPFRzBhznzJZv8V+bv9kV7HAarT W56NoKVyOtQa8L9GAFgr5fSI/VhOSdvNILSd5JEHNmszbDgNRR0PfIizHHxbLY72 88kjwEPwpVsYjY67VYy4XTjTNP18F1dDox0YbN4zISy1Kv884bEpQBgRjXyEpwpy 1obEAxnIByl6ypUM2Zafq9AKUJsCRtMIPWakXUGfnHy9iUsiGSa6q6Jew1XrPdYX AAICD/wKwtF7Y4NKBe8PQ6jDbjWziiTv9Ac/EnRTJDQEoqgLa2LyE+6Ahw/VPGvp mfxkD2MKxC9E7kYVmasn6sHnSpvAv3e7O1Bqbo/qLzzCcJQ5VCurZ+elRM1GZ4Oc fM19FPKutb0/JFEv0nrqS4BGkF7WFBbu5dKYl/GIO7Co1mAerFIb719dOwMPVEIz OT08u8uB9jyR8gEElf+CVuNfOUkrUGg4HS4SbmTTrCSz3/8n5PkquSuAyjCB/dwM ZsZwA0/TTR8sDYlmlf9xPj5PGpGnV9OUwfig6eE0eWtRFeasmz0uiX+yp45ABtNh 6EXP/PFaBgXi9omXXjeeFYfpDvmfA6izvTIQfXTV6V9ZWrBfXarM+GQ+6guXWVbd 9fXvmCr982LkzuKQrK1OpRXBMUapXL+tOy/LYzz91InqKKhgPNGa12fvotZ4LzlM iqoM+Hpz5L9B5We1Ph0lD6RBVXDCqd+P8extnY/7AaDy7tC0UghaAaUuEZXJQPIc oQ3QGbpjM0nGe/VZN5EZhljau0NNENFaU56cOpvOhcO04gLGNNc2NS+rIpTMsaHh o1CG90c5zZZJuUbyx0mIHriNQXDgEwunSZPQorKK9KSppyyjeuOyi5F/mBBPXeyT weLhLqLvAr9se/+Z3aQvMADJi8zUZtGggLTw+N9R5XSwtSh2R4kARgQYEQIABgUC PkQIpwAKCRBbmvb9yuOVfWayAKC+mBhHdn1XZ5uH0RocAyJ32hx2kgCePyhB+IqM TjWLDLarQxcPYhbkFi4= =nx1M -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)wasabisystems.com

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Re: Protecting Our Children
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Makes it a crime not to keep the cough medicine in the triple lock gun cabinet it also mandates? Or just gives more money to the DEA to seek Peace With Honor in the War On Drugs? MacN On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > To be voted on in the House tomorrow: > (9) H.R. 5312 - Protecting Our Children From Drugs Act of 2000 > > It's not on Thomas, and I don't feel like dispatching my intern to get the > text, so your guess is as good as mine. > > -Declan > >

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Re: Protecting Our Children
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Makes it a crime not to keep the cough medicine in the triple lock gun cabinet it also mandates? Or just gives more money to the DEA to seek Peace With Honor in the War On Drugs? MacN On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > To be voted on in the House tomorrow: > (9) H.R. 5312 - Protecting Our Children From Drugs Act of 2000 > > It's not on Thomas, and I don't feel like dispatching my intern to get the > text, so your guess is as good as mine. > > -Declan > >

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Re: Protecting Our Children
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Makes it a crime not to keep the cough medicine in the triple lock gun cabinet it also mandates? Or just gives more money to the DEA to seek Peace With Honor in the War On Drugs? MacN On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > To be voted on in the House tomorrow: > (9) H.R. 5312 - Protecting Our Children From Drugs Act of 2000 > > It's not on Thomas, and I don't feel like dispatching my intern to get the > text, so your guess is as good as mine. > > -Declan > >

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Re: Protecting Our Children
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Makes it a crime not to keep the cough medicine in the triple lock gun cabinet it also mandates? Or just gives more money to the DEA to seek Peace With Honor in the War On Drugs? MacN On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > To be voted on in the House tomorrow: > (9) H.R. 5312 - Protecting Our Children From Drugs Act of 2000 > > It's not on Thomas, and I don't feel like dispatching my intern to get the > text, so your guess is as good as mine. > > -Declan > >

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Re: Protecting Our Children
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Makes it a crime not to keep the cough medicine in the triple lock gun cabinet it also mandates? Or just gives more money to the DEA to seek Peace With Honor in the War On Drugs? MacN On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Declan McCullagh wrote: > To be voted on in the House tomorrow: > (9) H.R. 5312 - Protecting Our Children From Drugs Act of 2000 > > It's not on Thomas, and I don't feel like dispatching my intern to get the > text, so your guess is as good as mine. > > -Declan > >

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