- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: [p2p-hackers] Bitcoin incentive on Kademlia networks
by Changaco 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

On Sun, 4 Nov 2012 16:11:31 -0700 Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn wrote: > That's interesting. Do you know of a succinct English summary of this > "Relative Theory of Money"? No, and I asked the author, he doesn't either. Basically it just says that the only monetary system that respects everyone's freedom is the one that creates money on a regular basis at a fixed rate (temporal symmetry), and distributes it in equal shares to users (spatial symmetry). It also gives a way to calculate an "optimal" rate from the average life expectancy of people using the money. > So, Coase's Theorem is that it doesn't matter how the resource is > initially allocated if transaction costs are zero, but that it *does* > matter if transaction costs are non-zerob& and transaction costs are > always non-zero! > > How does that theorem apply to this question? The transaction costs of > Bitcoin are probably significantly lower than any comparable system, > but of course it is never 0. Is the initial (more precisely the > "early) distribution of Bitcoin important or unimportant to the > ongoing function of the economy? Important relatively to which goal ? If the goal is freedom and equality, then it's important. > This, I don't really agree with. I know it is a common belief among > certain schools of economics, and I admit the theoretical soundness of > the Paradox of Thrift, but I'm not really convinced that it is a > sufficiently important problem in practice, nor that an inflationary > currency is a solution to the problem whose benefits outweigh its > costs. What costs ? > I mean: maybe! But maybe not. Who knows? How can one tell? All ex post > facto empirical observations are inextricably entangled with > confounders. In particular, I personally suspect that the > *predictability* of a monetary policy is at least as important as what > that policy actually is (today). Bitcoin (or perhaps some successor to > Bitcoin that fixes some flaws) could have a policy about the aggregate > monetary base that is predictable in a way that no other currency is. Can't really do more predictable than a fixed rate. > I don't like the word "hoarding", because it is an emotionally laden > word without, as far as I understand, a specific meaning different > from "saving". "Hoarding" is you saving money (or other resources) > when I think you shouldn't. "Saving" is you hoarding when I think you > should. English isn't my native tongue so I just looked up a translation and found "hoarding". I meant money that's neither spent on goods/services nor invested, money that doesn't change hands, which is bad if your axiom is that money is primarily a means of exchange. > Anyway I admit that you're basically right if you put it like this: a > currency can't be *optimal* for long-term savings and optimal for a > medium of exchange, but I'm not at all sure that this implies a single > currency can't be *good enough* for both. I also kind of think that: > > (a) It isn't just that any one currency can't be optimal for both, it > is that it is impossible to optimize both simultaneously in any way! > That is: it wouldn't matter if you had two currencies, or a million > currencies (hello, Ripple), or any other system, you still couldn't > simultaneously optimize both savings (and the associated > safety/robustness) and growth. > > (b) I'm skeptical of the idea that it is better to tune this trade-off > further toward the growth side and further away from the savings side > b by use of an inflationary currency b than to use the setting that > results from having a non-inflationary or deflationary currency. The > theoretical insight of the Paradox of Thrift is certainly a > fascinating and provocative observation (namely, that the aggregate > utility of everyone in the society is increased if they are somehow > coerced or tricked into spending more than their individual > self-interest would dictate), but it seems far too abstract and > speculative a guide to improving the fortunes of a real, complex and > dynamic, economy. I have a few remarks. Firstly, inflation doesn't trick people into spending any more than deflation tricks them into saving. Note that I include "investing" in "saving". Secondly, I wouldn't use the term "growth" because it implies "something more", like "manufacturing more goods", or "increasing the quantity of services". Those aren't goals for me. Lastly, I don't see the link between "savings" and "safety/robustness". > Thanks for the conversation! Likewise. _______________________________________________ p2p-hackers mailing list p2p-hackers(a)lists.zooko.com http://lists.zooko.com/mailman/listinfo/p2p-hackers ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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[FoRK] Veeery Intewesting...
by Adam L Beberg 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1062 There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft's list. ... -- Adam L. Beberg - beberg(a)mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

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Re: <nettime> FW: [IP] WikiLeaks sold classified intel, claims website's co-founder
by John Young 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

This should not be news to those who have followed the world of hackers -- religion and NGOs. They have been selling restricted information from the beginning of their enterprises. Some do it as employees and off-the-books agents of governments and business and individuals, some do it as rogue entrepreneurs like Wikileaks, or more commonly, investigative reporters, private eyes and holy workers -- and, ahem, high-minded scholars. It is an ancient industry, as old as human intercourse where cheating and hoodwinking and treachery are obligatory to survive against those who do the same. Nearly all who do it claim it to be necessary "because others do it," to protect our tribe, to protect our hordes of food, wealth, faith and means and methods of counterspying. And as ever, because we are superior and thus have the right to be worse than our imputed enemies -- mostly imaginary, often our own villainous agents plotting with others of their kind pretending to be enemies to keep their racket lucrative. Religious warfare had to be invented to excuse the slaughter of infidels. Messianism of Wikileaks is comical but it has worked multitudes for millennia with imaginary danger and protection. Do tithe. Kissinger and Giuliani and Chertoff and thousands of insiders -- call them ph d candidates -- go on to greater wealth outside, switching back and forth to keep the flim-flam flowing. All intelligence operations -- "knowledge industry" -- are illicit by design to exaggerate significance and risk, that way law (the most devious of all), mundane and heavenly, blesses them with powerful advertizing. They are all in cahoots. Wikileaks emulates an eternal business model, that is to lie and exaggerate about what it is doing. Every academic is familiar with these means and method, avid promoters of it, get some of that old time higher education, a certificate for excellence, a license to recruit and train newcomers, a pretense of opposition ie, high-level critique, ever plotting and dealing for perqs and advantages of salary, space, reputation, rank, and showtime. Selling classified information is what the knowledge industry was invented for. Now Wikileaks is a challenge to the highly organized operations of state, church, university, military, corporation, NGO (spit), media and unaffiliated (watch out for these cutthroat mercenaries alway betraying those stupid enough to outsource to the temps stealing the jewels). Assange stated at the beginning of Wikileaks it expected to make big bucks, $5M the first year he wrote on a private mail list -- among other pimping messages later published on Cryptome. The free stuff is meant lure volunteers and promote high-profile public service, lipsticked with risk, with the enterprise funded by selling costly material sold on the black market of worldwide spying in the tradition of public benefit ops, id, spies and ever more spies. No better customers for illicit information that those with depthless pockets. Soros and the Kochs have their lesser-known Internet promoters backing Wikileaks generously. And they expect good return on their investment, not just the freebies used to attact attention. Watch out for the public interest data miners of the Internet, and leakers and whistleblowers, bandits stealing data, marking it up with glamorous titles, ie deeply researched, classified, actionable, nation threatening, liberating, etc, reselling publicly thourgh gadzillion press operations and secretly through those who pretend to avoid limelight. Think Archive.org, think Wikipedia, think Google, think this list and your crafty mangy boil-ridden carcass. Mea culpa. # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mail.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime(a)kein.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Re: <nettime> FW: [IP] WikiLeaks sold classified intel, claims website's co-founder
by John Young 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

This should not be news to those who have followed the world of hackers -- religion and NGOs. They have been selling restricted information from the beginning of their enterprises. Some do it as employees and off-the-books agents of governments and business and individuals, some do it as rogue entrepreneurs like Wikileaks, or more commonly, investigative reporters, private eyes and holy workers -- and, ahem, high-minded scholars. It is an ancient industry, as old as human intercourse where cheating and hoodwinking and treachery are obligatory to survive against those who do the same. Nearly all who do it claim it to be necessary "because others do it," to protect our tribe, to protect our hordes of food, wealth, faith and means and methods of counterspying. And as ever, because we are superior and thus have the right to be worse than our imputed enemies -- mostly imaginary, often our own villainous agents plotting with others of their kind pretending to be enemies to keep their racket lucrative. Religious warfare had to be invented to excuse the slaughter of infidels. Messianism of Wikileaks is comical but it has worked multitudes for millennia with imaginary danger and protection. Do tithe. Kissinger and Giuliani and Chertoff and thousands of insiders -- call them ph d candidates -- go on to greater wealth outside, switching back and forth to keep the flim-flam flowing. All intelligence operations -- "knowledge industry" -- are illicit by design to exaggerate significance and risk, that way law (the most devious of all), mundane and heavenly, blesses them with powerful advertizing. They are all in cahoots. Wikileaks emulates an eternal business model, that is to lie and exaggerate about what it is doing. Every academic is familiar with these means and method, avid promoters of it, get some of that old time higher education, a certificate for excellence, a license to recruit and train newcomers, a pretense of opposition ie, high-level critique, ever plotting and dealing for perqs and advantages of salary, space, reputation, rank, and showtime. Selling classified information is what the knowledge industry was invented for. Now Wikileaks is a challenge to the highly organized operations of state, church, university, military, corporation, NGO (spit), media and unaffiliated (watch out for these cutthroat mercenaries alway betraying those stupid enough to outsource to the temps stealing the jewels). Assange stated at the beginning of Wikileaks it expected to make big bucks, $5M the first year he wrote on a private mail list -- among other pimping messages later published on Cryptome. The free stuff is meant lure volunteers and promote high-profile public service, lipsticked with risk, with the enterprise funded by selling costly material sold on the black market of worldwide spying in the tradition of public benefit ops, id, spies and ever more spies. No better customers for illicit information that those with depthless pockets. Soros and the Kochs have their lesser-known Internet promoters backing Wikileaks generously. And they expect good return on their investment, not just the freebies used to attact attention. Watch out for the public interest data miners of the Internet, and leakers and whistleblowers, bandits stealing data, marking it up with glamorous titles, ie deeply researched, classified, actionable, nation threatening, liberating, etc, reselling publicly thourgh gadzillion press operations and secretly through those who pretend to avoid limelight. Think Archive.org, think Wikipedia, think Google, think this list and your crafty mangy boil-ridden carcass. Mea culpa. # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: http://mail.kein.org/mailman/listinfo/nettime-l # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime(a)kein.org ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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[FoRK] Veeery Intewesting...
by Adam L Beberg 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

http://www.sianews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1062 There over 800 prison camps in the United States, all fully operational and ready to receive prisoners. They are all staffed and even surrounded by full-time guards, but they are all empty. These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) should Martial Law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general's signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached. Ask yourself if you really want to be on Ashcroft's list. ... -- Adam L. Beberg - beberg(a)mithral.com http://www.mithral.com/~beberg/ _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

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None
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

1 0

None
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Why a separate WWW box issued a copy, I dunno. There's about a dozen of the WWW boxes tied together via AFS.

1 0

None
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

1 0

None
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Why a separate WWW box issued a copy, I dunno. There's about a dozen of the WWW boxes tied together via AFS.

1 0

None
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

1 0