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Re: Registering Keys with Big Brother
by George A. Gleason 26 Oct '92

26 Oct '92

Tim's summary of Denning raises some interesting points, and no doubt this will end up in the courts in due time. Some angles of attack which might be pursued include 2nd amendment (original grounds: protection against tyrrany) and 1st amendment. Re the latter, a lawyer I spoke with some years ago, proposed the idea that freedom of speech in some cases depends on the ability for the speaker to determine who will and who will not receive what is said. Then of course there is always good oldfashioned civil disobedience. If enough people conscientiously violate the regulation, it will become unenforceable and all the more likely to be overturned. -gg

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BBS E-mail policy
by omega＠spica.bu.edu 26 Oct '92

26 Oct '92

>> One incentive would be for the BBS operators to phase in a policy that they will accept no e-mail which is _not_ encrypted. Comments? << And how does your BBS software tell whether or not you've just sent encrypted mail, plaintext mail or line-noise? (in an encryption/decryption-at-user's-end scenario) -- Omega(a)spica.bu.edu

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Registering Keys with Big Brother
by tcmay＠netcom.com 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

Arise, cypherpunks, evil plans are brewing in the bowels of the Beast! I just read a summary of influential crypto guru Dorothy Denning's talk at the recent 15th National Computer Security Conference (held in Baltimore, don't you know, so con-vee-nient to Fort Meade). See the recent RISKS articles in comp.risks (esp. 13.86). Since RISKS is copyrighted, and we wouldn't to do anything to make the lawscums unhappy, I'll summarize: * Denning proposes that anyone using public key encryption over public networks be required to register their private keys with, for example, the Justice Department. * To avoid the risks of someone else getting the key, she suggests the private keys could be encrypted with the _public key_ of Justice, and then held by an independent agency. (Ostensibly, the encryption and registration could be done by the user himself, though some means of verifying compliance would have to be devised.) * To make use of the private key (for example, to read e-mail encrypted with the key), the government would have to get a court order, present it to the independent agency, take the key back to Justice, decrypt it with the private key of Justice, and then proceed with their surveillance and whatnot. This is ostensibly like the procedure for wiretapping. However, it would screw up the use of encryption in many ways. Registering a key would precluded frequent key changes, would probably cost some fee (on the order of $50, like a driver's license, I'd guess), and would of course greatly complicate the use of digital pseudonyms and all the other neat stuff we've talked about (but which caution tells me not to discuss here on an open and unsecured list...you can check my .sig to see where I stand, of course). My hunch is that Denning and the other "quaint" (cf. Sterling's "The Hacker Crackdown" for a description of how the crypto bigwigs interact with hackers at CFP and elsewhere) cryptheads have alerted the government to the _real_ threat of cryto tools. Position papers are being released as trial balloons, to prepare the way for a "Crypto Crackdown." I hope I'm wrong. We need more information. Let's talk to someone who went to this conference and get the Proceedings as quickly as possible. Cryptically Yours, --Tim -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | PGP 2.0 and MailSafe keys by arrangement.

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Removal from list
by nathanf＠cup.portal.com 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

Please remove me from the list. My address is nathanf(a)cup.portal.com Thank you.

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re: pgp key distribution
by Tom.Jennings＠f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

U> From: pmetzger(a)shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) U> for the life of me understand why. The only way to know U> for sure that someone's key is theirs is a signature from U> a trusted introducer anyway, so people can just ask each U> other in clear for public keys and it doesn't do a lick of I think it is valuable for a number of reasons, none of which are traditional encryption reasons. One: Mostly, in my world, I don't need SECURITY, I need PRIVACY. A paper envelope sealed with water-soluble glue is just fine. It stops casual snoops, like the lock on your car door does. None of which will stop a determined thief, but like Eric says, it's economics -- this level of security is inexpensive as hell. Two: it gets people introduced to the very basic concept that there *is* privacy (security) available, and possible. In the FidoNet, and the BBS world, this is important. Three: In FidoNet, we've got 16,000 sysops, doubling every 18 months, worldwide. Traditional key systems are not only wildly impractical, they're unnecessary for traditional reasons -- who much security to I need to talk to someone 5,000 miles away I've never met? Four: If I need *real* security, I will (or better!) obtain keys in "traditional", secure ways. I can plug these keys into my casual privacy system, which will hopefully encompass the technological mechanisms of en/decryption, signing, plaintext handling, and all the assorted baggage we'll have to drag around anyways. Five: it will entrench some disasters; bum, or faked keys, humongous duplicates, inexperienced people forgetting their secret pass phrases so they can't even issue key-removal certificates (this has happened already; its a MAJOR pain in the ass), one "person" with a zillion IDs, inconsistent IDing, etc etc etc etc etc. Oh well. In fact, no system gets implemented right. Period. To pretend it will is folly. Because of the nature of the beast (patents, feds looking for backdoors, stupidity, centralist, authoritarian types trying to exert control, etc, I'm pushing, hard and fast, to get systems set up LIKE CRAZY of all sorts, with all of them being completely distributed and decentralized. Sufficiently Paranoid. --- ReadMail * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) -- Tom Jennings - via FidoNet node 1:125/555 UUCP: ...!uunet!hoptoad!kumr!fidogate!111!Tom.Jennings INTERNET: Tom.Jennings(a)f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG

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re: Re: pgp key distribution
by Tom.Jennings＠f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

U> From: shipley(a)tfs.COM (Peter Shipley) U> I maintain two public rings one is a collection I have U> collected via direct contact (friends mostly) the other is U> jyanowitz's list plus random other rings). I'm surprised by the number of people who, when they receive a key in the mail, certify it themselves. I leave mine also uncertified unless I got it directly. I don't sign nuttin. --- ReadMail * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) -- Tom Jennings - via FidoNet node 1:125/555 UUCP: ...!uunet!hoptoad!kumr!fidogate!111!Tom.Jennings INTERNET: Tom.Jennings(a)f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG

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re: pgp key distribution
by Tom.Jennings＠f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

U> From: shawnb(a)ecst.csuchico.edu (shawnb) U> I'm pretty new to this mailing list, so something along U> these lines may have already been proposed, but I was U> considering the possibility of putting together a list of U> pgp public keys for distribution through this list. My The FidoNet has an echo ("newsgroup") where each message ("article") is someones public key. Here's my keyring, for what it's worth: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.0 mQCNAirSicsAAAEEALQ8l1jjbcASxKkdlHACfaE+em9i996Sos8ox50JjhZNu9N6 mft8V0App0eXTYAEumnz+CVVJXjzMUgloGs1ZnyvqkT3VhaF6CyUSUFwXIym/IUk buvs3qqEU55yGTl1s2gcjgiqyL/1jmOIdaaMQNrQ4/4x28gaOFQYMJXaJ+w1AAUR tC5XZXMgUGVya2hpc2VyIDx3ZXMucGVya2hpc2VyQHdlaXNlLm9tYWh1Zy5vcmc+ iQCVAgUQKtRrakq2SryVeKUXAQGF4AP+JDQawppDmAteShKF6Be24MGpByxYnIYR XyHpKOIcGx45S7FZOoS+mGzU4VXRYF9reHvfYGnz0GGjZ962K5tFJSSupF7ccxBi nLA3EYltX8iIufbyLwoS6Bb2gmX6Z5kfDVcffvlw8RqWFAwxows6QU8VvadLa40B mEjvVqzAIgiZAI0CKuQvgAAAAQQA0CiZieU9eimeaz1G1TSWf0KIsmWOyw55+UL0 D5AgO6NeE9PIClsvpU+pJRKgUX97vbFMmLHKvAFCHDmUC9+9A8SIYgVBBjG+IX5C D/7r8lW8sKO+cZUWX2QpMRhV443EE0aJpe5ITRUxAvHjuI/0BT7BjDrZpeZM21bU FS1fkEcABRG0MEphbWVzIEEuIENhbXBiZWxsIDx1amFjYW1wYmVAbWVtc3R2eDEu bWVtc3QuZWR1PpkAjQIq43aAAAABBACqyZ7OXOK217FIvtParcy1nOgZUcLqrapK Fq0nefdbEHLiaB+i1jeTdSoUqehMi3+ZiDICDxuVF6yBqCDsrl3tOd8mLC3Pe6Bk W4gCi6KI2XrIpb1DCKc4EscjzWSku2E0lYiLAfkh4BTwzxcbTr6Yj9CJjVb1JJ46 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Tom.Jennings(a)f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG

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re: multiple message destinations
by Tom.Jennings＠f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

U> 1) [...] Or send it yourself. As a paranoid person myself (I use the two phrases "sufficiently paranoid" (me, and most of us in here are sufficiently paranoid -- to at least consider the issues) and "insufficiently paranoid" -- people who conduct business over cordless or cellular voice, etc -- these paren'd subtexts are getting out of hand -- as a paranoid person myself I would only trust sending them myself. It's really a "code" issue -- given a list of addressees, will the miserable program you're using do the work for you. --- ReadMail * Origin: World Power Systems / FidoNews / San Francisco CA (1:125/111) -- Tom Jennings - via FidoNet node 1:125/555 UUCP: ...!uunet!hoptoad!kumr!fidogate!111!Tom.Jennings INTERNET: Tom.Jennings(a)f111.n125.z1.FIDONET.ORG

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pgp key distribution
by shawnb 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

I'm pretty new to this mailing list, so something along these lines may have already been proposed, but I was considering the possibility of putting together a list of pgp public keys for distribution through this list. My own collection of keys is pretty small, and I would pernally like to expand this, but I think this would provide a great service to the group as well. Let me know what you all think. Shawn

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Re: remove from mailing list
by Hal 25 Oct '92

25 Oct '92

What we _ought_ to do is to remind people that they should send their unsubscribe notices to cyherpunks-request(a)toad.com, _not_ to the list address. That way we wouldn't all have to be bothered by reading these messages, and the list volume would be that much lower!

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