- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

reputations talk notes
by tribble＠xanadu.com 19 Dec '92

19 Dec '92

These are the notes from my talk at the last meeting. They may only be parsable by people who saw the talk, but I'm interested in all comments. Thanks to Mark Miller and Eric Drexler who helped me put together these notes the first time. The need for reputations: single Prisoner's Dilemna incentive for defecting iterated Prisoner's dilemna incentive for cooperating reps put each person in an iterated situation with the group better reputations reduce reputation float (see below) Spreading reputations makes them better at encouraging cooperation Uses of reputations: sorting filtering - this is just bad sorting collateral - for business and important trust issues let me add that reputation appication is largely on the receiving side Negative reputations: don't work with anonymity because you just make another identity don't spread for psychological and legal reasons many people won't reveal negative opinions about others people primarily support filtering and collateral Positive reputations: are safer to reveal and spread allow sorting can handle anonymous pseudonyms Anonymity: reduces perceived and actual accountability breaks many of our trained intutions for trusting others implicit but unrevealed assets aren't at risk trade names are examples of non-anon. pseudonyms Reputations systems for sorting mail are less of an issues than reputations systems for actual business because there is less at risk. Gaming of a reputation system depends on how much is at risk. Brilliant Pennies: randomly generated reputations the con game: start with 1000 pennies flip them every day. head the stock market goes up, tails it goes down throw out pennies that 'guessed' wrong at the end of ten days you have a penny with a 'reputation' for predicting the stock market sell the penny anonymously :-) inconsistent positive reputations are better than perfect reputations can explain away first several mistakes Assets that support an identity recoverable assets anything that can be recovered in the even of a defection bank accounts, goods, factories, etc. pseudonyms typically won't have recoverable assets pseudonyms could keep recoverable assets in a non-anonymous escrow can be anonymously and privately committed to more than one party in the event of a defection, so value can't properly be assessed unrecoverable assets Sunk costs time, money spent building a reputation solves the Brilliant Penny problem: random rep requires huge investment a 30day coin-flipping rep requires more pennies than exist notarized money-destruction service: proves investment with no route for kickbacks to the investor demonstrates the comparative cost of running an anon. service our intuitions about sunk costs can be very wrong here we're used to sunk costs at least looking recoverable (liquidation) we're used to eventual personal accountability of decision maker sunk costs enable kill files again you can only afford so many pseudonyms this is relates to the Brilliant Penny solution reputation capital (perceived value of reputation) customer good will, market share, shelf space, customer mind-space, etc. priority settings in receivers's mail handlers (filters, sorters) future sales potential based on the net present value of the reputation perceived differently by different individuals (customers/producer) based on discount rate (subjective value of money now vs. money later?) perception of discount rate can change radically you are told you have 6 months to live Reputation Float: latency between use of a reputation and the effect on the value of the reputation how long can you ride on past glory? this includes the amount of goods, etc. against which the reputation is collateral existing trade-names collateralize the quality of existing goods (i.e. cars) estimating reputation float is a public goods problem why should I reveal the goods I have outstanding if I can get the info anyway insurance (Idea Futures) doesn't help the anonymous could collect both from defaulting and from insurance our intuitions screw up at estimating this we're not used to untraceable transactions Miscellaneous: filtering/sorting reputations should be wrt to topics This generalizes to other criteria individuals have different levels of expertise in different areas synthesized reputations are reputations composed from multiple reputations chaining remailers composes their reputations for security voting among key providers composes their uncompromisability reputations

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Re: The Need for Positive Repuations
by jthomas＠kolanut.mitre.org 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

> From: tcmay(a)netcom.com (Timothy C. May) > The longterm solution is to use "positive reputations" and not just > "negative reputations" (as in Kill files). This is something Dean > Tribble just talked about at our last physical meeting of the > Cypherpunks ("Bay Area Branch" :-} ). > > Think of like a credit rating. People _earn_ trust, they don't just > get assigned a credit rating until they do something bad. >From: pmetzger(a)shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) >Indeed, in the long run, when there are billions of people in the >nets, even UseNet newsgroups devoted to people who use musical >instruments as sex toys would have thousands of posts a day because >given billions of possible subscribers, finding a few tens of >thousands with a particularly obscure interest wouldn't be hard. >Thus, in the long run, the nets will move to "closed" newsgroups and >mailing lists in which to be a subscriber one will have to be >explicitly subscribed to a list and will only be able to read with >one's private key and post by digitally signing messages. In such >an environment, anonymous abusers will simply be incapable of >annoying people. Yes, but there will still need to be a way for new people to join the lists, (and the net in general) before they've had a chance to "prove themselves." Allowing all new id's to post to the whole group on a probationary basis is unacceptable; as soon as someone proves obnoxious enough to kick off they could just start over with a new id. The obvious answer is that a moderator will be necessary for all closed lists that require a positive rep for posting and that don't wish to be forever limited to their founding members. After a few lucid posts passed by the moderator, an individual would gain enough of a reputation not to be filtered out any longer. Of course, anyone who's heard Howard Stern fans invade political call-in shows will realize there's not much that can be done with those weird people who will spend a lot of time and energy to appear credible, only to annoy people. Joe

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Patently false rumor
by 2FTPHAVOC＠kuhub.cc.ukans.edu 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

I just finished reading the Mondo 2k article on cypherpunks. I was hoping to find out some more info on !encrytption software. All rumors are built on a grain of truth, aren't they?

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The Wheel
by wendtj＠jplpost.Jpl.Nasa.Gov 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

Has anyone built there own TEMPEST reciever/antenna equipment? I have seen articles that say that you can use old television sets, and that you can build more advanced TEMPEST unit for a hundred dollars. This seems akin to the carburator that will give you 200 mpg, and plans for a particle beam cannon in the back of some zines. If this is so cheap and easy or cheaper-quicker-better (NASA-Goldin-TQM propoganda), then why haven't we seen an article/articles on the construction of a TEMPEST reciever and the associated tuning/specs on such an item. Is it possible, or nothing more than snake oil? JPW

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Returned mail: User unknown
by MAILER-DAEMON＠acf3.NYU.EDU 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

----- Transcript of session follows ----- >>> RCPT To:<cyperpunks(a)toad.com> <<< 550 <cyperpunks(a)toad.com>... User unknown 550 cyperpunks(a)toad.com... User unknown ----- Unsent message follows ----- Received: by acf3.NYU.EDU (5.61/1.34) id AA06619; Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:23:18 -0500 From: habs (Harry A. B. Shapiro) Message-Id: <9212180223.AA06619(a)acf3.NYU.EDU> Subject: repeater abuse To: cyperpunks(a)toad.com Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:23:17 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL0] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Length: 544 In reponse to Dean T. message. I agree. Re: low tech - The extropians uses several Perry(TM) filters to prevent unwanted bounces AND unwanted posters OUT. For a more high tech solution I can imagine some sort of public or private key needed to make a post - An example being some a public key that was in some manner signed by a trusted member of a list - I am weak on the techincal end/side but basically unless the message is "trusted" it doens't get through. -- habs(a)acf3.NYU.EDU habs(a)gnu.ai.mit.edu habs(a)well.sf.ca.us habs(a)panix.com

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Re: The Need for Positive Repuations
by pmetzger＠shearson.com 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

> From: tcmay(a)netcom.com (Timothy C. May) > The longterm solution is to use "positive reputations" and not just > "negative reputations" (as in Kill files). This is something Dean > Tribble just talked about at our last physical meeting of the > Cypherpunks ("Bay Area Branch" :-} ). > > Think of like a credit rating. People _earn_ trust, they don't just > get assigned a credit rating until they do something bad. Indeed, in the long run, when there are billions of people in the nets, even UseNet newsgroups devoted to people who use musical instruments as sex toys would have thousands of posts a day because given billions of possible subscribers, finding a few tens of thousands with a particularly obscure interest wouldn't be hard. Thus, in the long run, the nets will move to "closed" newsgroups and mailing lists in which to be a subscriber one will have to be explicitly subscribed to a list and will only be able to read with one's private key and post by digitally signing messages. In such an environment, anonymous abusers will simply be incapable of annoying people. A weak version of this exists already in the Extropians mailing list, which considers itself to be a closed list. The list is governed by a privately produced legal code (its in some ways a test of anarchocapitalist legal theory), and since the adoption of the code, we've had a reduction of flaming by a large factor even though we've seen a three fold increase in list size. The content is improving because people know that sanctions will be applied for flaming and that they can actually be kicked off the list, and that being kicked off is meaningful. In the long run, all serious discussion groups will likely evolve in this direction, with the lists being closed to explicit subscribers and with meaningful sanctions like ostracism being applied to people that behave in an antisocial manner. Such lists have little reason to fear people hiding behind cloaks of anonymity. With digital signatures, even the anonymous can develop meaningful reputations and can be sanctioned for failing to live up to those reputations. Perry

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Re: Patent Infringement
by pmetzger＠shearson.com 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

> From: yanek(a)novavax.nova.edu (Yanek Martinson) > > > "I'm sorry to say that yes, it *IS* illegal to reinvent the wheel and > > apply it yourself. In the US it is called "Patent Infringement"." > > > > Only if you attempt to sell it ... > > No. The patent law prohibits anyone from "making, using, or selling" > anything covered under the patent. Selling it makes it more likely > that the patent holder will come after you, as they have a greater > chance of getting some money from you. > > I am not a lawyer, I am sure someone here can explain all this in > greater detail, or correct me if I'm wrong. This is one of the sillier threads I've seen in a while. Is anyone here arguing seriously that RFI shielding your equipment is a patented technology? Perry

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So you want a wide-spectrum signal analyzer ?
by Richard Childers 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

Here's what HP's catalog says : Spectrum Analyzers Spectrum analyzers take advantage of the frequency-conversion properties of the swept-tuned heterodyne receiver to make sig- -nificant contributions to frequency-domain signal analysis. The following are some of the measurements that can be made with spectrum analyzers : (1) Absolute and relative frequency. (2) Absolute and relative amplitude. (3) Noise. (4) Distortion products. (5) AM, FM & pulsed RF modulation. (6) Stimulus response. ( biofeedback ? ed. ) (7) Electromagnetic compatibility (EMC). These measurements are possible because spectrum analyzers have the following characteristics : (1) Broad frequency coverage from 5 Hz to 325 GHz. (2) Wide amplitude range from -138 dBm to +30 dBm. (3) Excellent sensitivity for low-signal detection. (4) Excellent frequency stability. (5) High resolution of frequency and amplitude. These capabilities allow spectrum analyzers to provide frequency- domain signal analysis for numerous applications, including the manufacture and maintenance of microwave communication links, radar, telecom equipment, CATV systems, and broadcast equipment ; EMI diagnostic testing ; and signal surveillance. ( I can't believe they actually said that. Gee, I wonder if They're going to classify test & measurement equipment next. )-: Prices for these puppies run from @ $ 20,000 to @ $ 50,000. They are very modularized, and, for the paranoids amongst you, these things are portable. They are probably devilishly heavy, like most test equipment is, and look a lot like an oscilloscope, when the cover is off. For information about any Hewlett Packard product or service, or for additional copies of this catalog, call the Customer Infor- -mation Center (CIC) at 800-752-0900 between 6:00 am and 5:00 pm PST. What you want is their 'Test & Measurement Catalog'. One small tip - if you're calling them up and want to get a catalog sent to you, you want to make an effort to look like a valid customer. These catalogs are large and expensive and they may be less inclined to pay for what is probably a few dollars' shipping if you come across as a college student ( with apologies to college students :-). Give an address if you can, give yourself a title - R&D engineer is good - a department - R&D - and, if they ask for a box or mail dept code, you can make one up or say that you don't have one. ( Using different box numbers going to a same address is a great way to see who's sharing their mailing list with whom else, BTW ). I'm not encouraging you to spoof these folks, merely noting that it is a regrettable necessity. If you don't present yourself as a prospect, they may blow you off, and if you give any hint that you don't represent some sort of company, you are sure to be blown off, presumed to be a waste of their time. ( Of course, this posting may lead to three or four analyzers, $ 100-200 thousand worth of sales, but try to persuade a salescritter of this. :-) -- richard ===== -- richard childers rchilder(a)us.oracle.com 1 415 506 2411 oracle data center -- unix systems & network administration "If Life is a drama, then, surely, the hardest parts go to the most skillful."

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New remailer
by miron＠extropia.wimsey.com 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I've set up a new remailer. I am currently working on extensions. Here are the details: Address: remail(a)extropia.wimsey.com Contact: miron(a)extropia.wimsey.com Encryption: PGP 2.1 Syntax: Compatible with Hal-standard remailers, except for a couple of things: - Encryption MUST be used. - Syntax can be simplified. The pasting operator is assumed. The "Encrypted:" header is optional. Accordingly, you can just encrypt plaintext of the following form (without the cut-here lines): --- cut here --- To: <recipient> <body> --- cut here --- In any case, one should be able to use the scripts posted on cypherpunks without change. Availability: continuous, approx 2 hr turnaround or better. (The keys follow this signed message.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.1 iQCVAgUBKzGfiZNxvvA36ONDAQHs0AP9EO5eiynLcTZumU7l4I+uLTvwROHR+DVv LfFDV5/dKtSaISQpYvj2RSKYK3NHi2JiCM5vnkNYUWFW1uHcX/BpdOte8IJr2zML /lpEEOYgbi56OGqg2bYhBCbJuh2wY71Ibs5Z5C/1HHsJ8hC334nbOV8pKC+gr+Mi Am+tEzExRyM= =Af9o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Remailer Key: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.1 mQCNAisrAP0AAAEEAJr3OwIfOIOoh9JndwwqFg+VyWFTAyM8S0B7wyGKI+A9sMAB mbSOIU52EszvLdZk8NH8mrOD9m3EZlt9gXOjln881RMilAunnzdXaJ6ffBKqPL+l yiefCbCo6wScVNfMSV6Di/2HMoFzVqukwRjTx8lqKt6hgy0uedtwcCemtaMvAAUR tCVSZW1haWxlciA8cmVtYWlsQGV4dHJvcGlhLndpbXNleS5jb20+iQCVAgUQKysE i5NxvvA36ONDAQF2AAP+IQlQxQ9MxuO6WDzIPsuzTxOS5LVrdh3MLWeAkbk+QN3l hrRvEneULh82xOEvZg9whZ+/W8WYtFA4a8g/HbAhuHh4gqQHGakr0SUpKYGpnUWl EBzZjMb+YKMR4UXpusF6ysWUDZ+f0tDbUDq0ukCoRZRq8wyIf9mndSfaqcsyfyGJ AEUCBRArKwPUS60iYsR4D/cBATXBAXsFqc8sCpP0gQ8KHF3myZrE+s7oP2nu/FP3 LvZE1+ttF3I9c6jncfWPT6cHpvWEoWk= =ZZ5t -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- My key: -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.0 mQCNAiqvJ10AAAED/jXfntqmsRjJRYoxYTxLO7obzMfzgUNtSDEawb3Suj4UO1xq uARc25PJNAHQhIa83Yxf9z/R/3AjwmYrZqxvB2RkLPTjTmzQd04fypsZToiR/TlM 5F43JCuCM779mAir9Idy1CQzXQ2bn89eUZaVhOUJzNgndl+wLpNxvvA36ONDAAUR tCxJbW1vcnRhbCBGcmVlZG9tIDxtaXJvbkBleHRyb3BpYS53aW1zZXkuY29tPokA lQIFECsXPLSTcb7wN+jjQwEBv20D/jIKu8z9DP+wTLLWYZZax9wnJJzRkD9//kFA C0is6LMNMSSX0yGwOPmqEI710BSovuTAlNBmqBrMrl0Bp5bsxpCN8Fw3Mc0ex5fe 1efockVjXNLMP0G4plr0AFMA4KXNE+MfwLFMd+Gcdxufro0yKoBygsHwQ+om+rut RPIy89/PiQBFAgUQKwxwHUutImLEeA/3AQGQnQF8D0Zdrrz+kMAguOANBhbnxm5t zak4TWg37hp/iU2CEfIbW/IUVIPEjNhvM6cjZ1jQ =/SVk -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -- Miron Cuperman <miron(a)extropia.wimsey.com> | NeXTmail/mime ok <miron(a)cs.sfu.ca> | Public key avail AMIX: MCuperman | cybercomputingimmortallaissezfaire |

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TEMPEST/Van Eyck data
by mark＠coombs.anu.edu.au 18 Dec '92

18 Dec '92

From: strat(a)intercon.com (Bob Stratton) >It's weird stuff, and some people would rather not have the world >learning how to do this. In fact, Van Eck's original article is known >to have some deliberate misinformation in it, as the author didn't >want to make it "too easy" to learn how to do this kind of ELINT. Ever realised that some things come along that just tickle your curiosity nerve and you wont let go until your satisfied? Im sure there are individuals and organisations out there that would love an excuse to shut down lists of this type, especially considering the type of information and the implications in the not too distant future if people start implementing half the concepts that are presented here. I would like to see indepth technical information, or at least pointers to said information presented here. Does anyone know of mailing lists out there that concentrate on levels of computer emissions and methods of diminishing them to negliable amounts? Where would one obtain copies of articles on the subject? I have saved the article posted by treason@gnu as it does contain a lot of references which give one something to go on. I commend him for posting it for it's informational content. It wasnt his fault it may have contained obselete or inaccurate information. So, anyone have lists of books, periodicals, email lists or papers that discuss the topic of computer RF emissions and how to protect a machine *AND* monitor the levels of others? Mark mark(a)coombs.anu.edu.au P.S. That NASA guy had better watch for list members waiting for the postie so they can collect the goodies before he can :)

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