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Re: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? (fwd)
by Nomen Nescio 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

> I think it's time we started talking about how to evaluate whether or not > this anthrax business is a big deal or not. Here are some things that would > make me worry: > ... > 3. Brown powder vice white starts showing up. (Anthrax is usually brown. You > can find any white powder in any kitchen.) The latest nytimes.com report describes brown powder: : The letter postmarked from Trenton, which arrived in a white envelope with : no return address, contained a brown granular substance, most of which : was thrown out after it was opened in the offices of the NBC Nightly : News program on the third floor of 30 Rockefeller Plaza, officials said. Someone else at NBC is sick now: : Several people handled the Trenton letter when it was first received at : NBC, perhaps as early as Sept. 19, including Erin M. O'Connor, the aide : to Mr. Brokaw, and another woman, who officials would not identify. That : woman, they said, has had a fever, a rash and swollen lymph nodes, : symptoms consistent with anthrax exposure and is being treated with : antibiotics. Officials are awaiting results on a definitive test for : anthrax exposure, which should be complete within the next day or two. The unidentified second woman came into contact with the material: : It was opened by a clerical employee, the unidentified woman who has : since fallen ill. NBC's president, Neal Shapiro, said the woman then : brushed the granular material that spilled from the envelope into a : trash can near her desk.

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Bin Laden's Group Threatens Bush, Others Leaders; Warns Muslims in U.S., Britain to Avoid Planes
by measl＠mfn.org 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

>From http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html "... Abu Ghaith singled out President Bush; his father, former President George H.W. Bush; former President Bill Clinton; British Prime Minister Tony Blair; and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon." Looks like Usama is legitimately trying to rid the world of Evil! Let's wish him the best of luck!!! -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin(a)mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------

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son of laden
by cpaul 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html Britain's Sunday Mirror newspaper quoted the 18-year old son of Osama bin Laden as saying his father was hiding in a cave in the Afghan mountains with 300 commandos and would never be caught. The Mirror quoted bin Laden's son Abdullah, one of his 42 children, as saying his father had disappeared with 60 trucks filled with satellite equipment on Sept. 11, the day of the suicide hijack attacks on New York and Washington "America and Britain will never track down my father," the son said in the interview. "He has vanished into the landscape, he is invisible. . . The Pakistani newspaper Ausaf reported today al Qaeda announced a $50,000 reward for any Afghan capturing an American soldier, $3,000 for the uniform of a U.S. soldier, and $1,500 for the gun of a U.S. soldier. The announcement was made through a bin Laden spokesman, the paper reported.

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Amerikan sickness
by Optimizzin Al-gorithm 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Kid played with the TV channels. Left it on Sen. Lieberman sucking "Rev" Schiller's cock in his cry$tal cathedral. Noting that their God will will make them victorious. Flag waving does not cure culture rot.

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Re: bush wheels out the nukes
by auto301094＠hushmail.com 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Eric wrote: >> The junior Bush is very fond of small tactical nukes, > You know this how? >In April, the media reported that the US was considering development of a >new small tactical nuke specifically tailored for use against "rogue >dictators" hiding in underground bunkers or heavily fortified command >centers, in violation of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and the >Comprehensive Test Ban treaty. >These would be used for, in the words of the director of Sandia, >deterrence in the non-Russian world." >Since such research is currently illegal, Oh? It's not illegal to think about it. No treaty was ever written in stone: in fact(if I'm not mistaken), since treaties always have an "overriding national interest" escape clause, IMO it would be highly irresponsible NOT to be thinking of avenues to eventually explore strategies beyond them. >Congress has tacked something onto the 2001 Defense Authorization Bill >mandating a study by DOE and DOD into small-scale nuclear weapons use against >dictators hiding in "hard and deeply buried targets." >George W. Bush, John Warner, and Wayne Allard, are the culprits here. But it's not just about nukes! Here's an excerpt which outlines the bigger picture, from the conference report to accompany H.R. 4205: SEC. 1044. REPORT ON THE DEFEAT OF HARDENED AND DEEPLY BURIED TARGETS. (a) STUDY.--The Secretary of Defense shall, in conjunction with the Secretary of Energy, conduct a study relating to the defeat of hardened and deeply buried targets. Under the study, the Secretaries shall-- (1) review-- (A) the requirements of the United States to defeat hardened and deeply buried targets and stockpiles of chemical and biological agents and related capabilities; and (B) current and future plans to meet those requirements; (2) determine if those plans adequately address all such requirements; (3) identify potential future hardened and deeply buried targets and other related targets; (4) determine what resources and research and development efforts are needed to defeat the targets identified under paragraph (3) as well as other requirements to defeat stockpiles of chemical and biological agents and related capabilities; (5) assess both current and future options to defeat hardened and deeply buried targets as well as concepts to defeat stockpiles of chemical and biological agents and related capabilities; and (6) determine the capability and cost of each option assessed under paragraph (5). What's the problem? I hardly see how figurehead politicians rubberstamping funds for national security research can be held culpable for anything their strategists and engineers may happen to think up. Personally, I think if there's anything to really be nervous about, it's the classified R&D studies you aren't hearing about. Oh well. ~F. *** "Critics frequently refer to the icy rationality of the Hudson Institute, the RAND Corporation and other such organizations. I'm always tempted to ask in reply, 'Would you prefer a warm, human error? Do you feel better with a nice emotional mistake?' We cannot expect good discussion of security problems if we are going to label every attempt at detachment as callous, every attempt at objectivity as immoral. Technical details are not the only important operative facts. Human and moral factors...must never be missing from policies and public discussion. But emotionalism and sentimentality, as opposed to morality and concern, only confuse the debates. Nor can experts be expected to repeat, 'If, heavean forbid...", before every sentence." - --Herman Kahn -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: Hush 2.0 wl8EARECAB8FAjvIvJIYHGF1dG8zMDEwOTRAaHVzaG1haWwuY29tAAoJEKadvsVlUK4P +xcAnRGyXfnaEh3LTDS8RlGBAwUJ31YFAKClR5hjf95GFi0xwzOeFwimodXSlA== =YgwR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Five more test positive for anthrax antibodies in Florida
by FogStorm 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

http://www.miami.com/herald/digdocs/098906.htm "Five additional employees of American Media Inc. in Boca Raton have tested positive for anthrax antibodies in their blood stream, but officials cautioned Saturday the tests are preliminary and more blood tests are being done."

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F.B.I. Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify City Hall
by AARG! Anonymous 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/13/nyregion/13HAND.html F.B.I. Did Not Test Letter to NBC or Immediately Notify City HallBy JENNIFER STEINHAUER and JIM DWYERAlthough the F.B.I. was notified on Sept. 25 about suspicious letters sent to NBC, neither the letters, nor the powder residue inside them were tested until nearly two weeks later, and then only because a private doctor notified city public health officials about a troubling skin condition in the news assistant who had handled the mail, officials acknowledged yesterday.In fact, the F.B.I. laboratory neither performed nor sought any tests on the powder or the skin samples taken from the employee, identified as Erin M. O'Connor, a 38-year-old assistant to Tom Brokaw."That, unfortunately, did not take place," said Barry W. Mawn, assistant director in charge of the F.B.I.'s New York office.He also said the agents had intended to interview Ms. O'Connor soon after they learned of the case, but did not, for reasons he did not explain.F.B.I. officials said investigators picked up the envelopes on Sept. 26, the day after NBC security officials called the agency. New York City officials were not informed of the preliminary inquiry until days later.Indeed if the Health Department had not been alerted to the case by a private doctor, it might well have hibernated in the F.B.I. files.Mr. Mawn said yesterday that the agency had to investigate dozens of threats, scares and false alarms, and that is how this case was initially treated. Since Sept. 11, when the two planes slammed into the World Trade Center, city and federal law enforcement officials have received hundreds of reports of menace and foul play ranging from bomb threats to chemical attack scares.The discovery of a case of apparently deliberate anthrax poisoning in the heart of New York City is just the latest in a string of terrifying events that have challenged the law enforcement and health care infrastructure in the last month. It pushed health care officials to nail down a pathogen that most of them had no experience with.And it once again tested the fragile relationship that has always existed between the New York City Police Department and the F.B.I., agencies that are forced to work in tandem on unprecedented and constantly evolving crimes."Information sharing between the F.B.I. and the N.Y.P.D. has always been poor," said one person who has worked closely with both agencies. "There is often a lack of willingness on the F.B.I.'s part to share information, although it is getting better. As they move forward, clearly the F.B.I. is going to have to be more forthcoming."In this case, Mr. Mawn said, the gravity of the situation was not fully appreciated by the federal authorities until recently.On Sept. 25., Ms. O'Connor handled a letter postmarked from St. Petersburg, Fla., filled with white powder, according to law enforcement officials. She also handled a second letter containing a sandy substance. Network officials, immediately suspicious, called the F.B.I., which picked up the letters the next day.Then, the agency began to prepare a cover letter for its own laboratory indicating that the substances needed to be tested, but the letter was never completed and the evidence was never sent from the F.B.I.'s office in New York to its laboratory, said Joseph Valiquette, an F.B.I. spokesman.He added that some delays happened because investigators were unable to interview Ms. O'Connor to supplement the cover letter. "We wanted to send a complete package to the laboratory," said Mr. Valiquette. So none of it was sent. Mr. Valiquette said he did not know why the F.B.I. could not speak with Ms. O'Connor, who works in Rockefeller Plaza and lives in the metropolitan area.On Sept. 28, Ms. O'Connor developed a strange sore on her chest. Nervous, she went to see Dr. Richard Fried, a Manhattan infectious disease specialist, said Dr. Annetta Kimball, the doctor covering for Dr. Fried, who could not be reached last night.Armed with the description of the rash which she described as central scarring surrounded by a lot of swelling the doctor likely consulted his textbooks to nail down what was going on. Dr. Kimball said that Dr. Fried suspected that his patient had been exposed to anthrax, and immediately prescribed Cipro."There is a good chance he had never seen anthrax before," said Dr. Kimball. "This is New York City, not an agricultural area." He also took cultures from a wound Ms. O'Connor developed, but those swabs were negative for anthrax, she said.At some point, officials and Dr. Kimball said, the patient visited a dermatologist.One of those doctors notified the city's Health Department on Oct. 6 of a possible case of anthrax. The city has among the most sophisticated epidemiologists and public health labs in the country.Mr. Valiquette said that the F.B.I. learned from the city's Health Department that "this was an issue." The substance eventually made its way to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, which went to unusual lengths to identify it. There was little powder to work with, and a power failure in the lab halted the work for nearly a day, said Dr. James M. Hughes of the C.D.C."None of this ever did go to the F.B.I. lab," he said.One of the Ms. O'Connor's doctors ordered a skin biopsy, which was sent to the C.D.C. But by the time the tissue was taken, the patient had begun taking an antibiotic to counter possible anthrax. As intended, that drug degraded the cellular structure of the bacteria. On Wednesday, the city was informed of the case under investigation. The C.D.C. was able to identify the spores of anthrax, and officials were informed of the results early yesterday morning.Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani announced the first confirmed case of anthrax yesterday morning at NBC.He was described by a person who was with him early yesterday as being "three feet off the ground" when he learned that the F.B.I. had not brought word of the developments to city officials earlier.Mr. Mawn acknowledged that investigators revisited the case after learning of the concerns of the health officials. "A second notification came through to the Department of Health, at which time the evidence response people and the F.B.I. also became involved with it. It was initially assigned to two agents that just covered the lead. And upon that, it was immediately submitted for tests. As you know and as the mayor has talked about, those tests were initially negative."Yesterday, The New York Times received a letter filled with white powder that was addressed to a reporter, Judith Miller. The Times notified the mayor's office, and city and F.B.I. officials responded immediately. Tests for radioactive and chemical substances were negative, and results from a more definitive test for anthrax DNA by state and federal labs were expected over the weekend.Coordinating the efforts of the various law enforcement and public health officials is proving tricky there have been dozens of bomb and other threats around the city since Sept. 11, and the city, which investigates each case, cannot inform the public or other agencies about each one. Just yesterday, the city heard of about a half dozen cases of suspicious powder or envelopes that it is investigating, the mayor said."If there was a problem, it was in the way they first investigated it," one Police Department official said of the F.B.I.'s performance.But there was some concern last night among health care experts about the delay in the testing. The inability of the agency to identify the substance was "not very comforting," said one C.D.C. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. "That is a little disappointing, to say the least."Anthrax spores, if kept under appropriate conditions sealed and unexposed to lots of light can be preserved for years, said Jerome M. Hauer, the former director of the Office of Emergency Management and currently managing director of Kroll Inc., an investigation firm. He added: "You don't want them sitting around. In this environment, you hope there is good information sharing, especially when it involves biological agents."

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Re: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? (fwd)
by measl＠mfn.org 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

This same thread just had a posting from a practitioner who was met with "we don't care, go somewhere else" by several agencies (including the Fat Dumb & Ignorant) when trying to report a possible case. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin(a)mfn.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:47:22 -0400 From: Richard Paley <rpaley(a)ADELPHIA.NET> Reply-To: EMED-L -- a list for emergency medicine practitioners. <EMED-L(a)ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU> To: EMED-L(a)ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU Subject: Re: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? In Florida, the state department of health is telling us not to do any cultures for Anthrax. We are to refer asymptomatic patients who sent at least one hour in the AMI building to the health department for interviewing and testing ----- Original Message ----- From: "douglas yoshida" <dyoshida(a)BELLATLANTIC.NET> To: <EMED-L(a)ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU> Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [EMED-L] [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? > Prior to the 12th I know of no one in our EDs( NYU and Bellevue) that treated any > one with antibiotics. Now that there is anthrax documented in New York, things > will changed. > > The Department of Health's official recommendation is to treat only the NBC > employees who were on the 3rd, 7th floor or in the mailroom on Sept. 18th or 25th. > Asymptomatic people were being treated on site with cipro and had nasal cultures > taken. Patients with any "symptoms" were being referred to the Bellevue ED. I > treated and discharged one NBC employee who had a runny nose and sore throat > (nothing else) with a nasal swab and levofloxin who "probably" was on those > floors. I saw another person who works for a magazine publisher who got a white > powder on her hands hours before the NBC exposure was announced. She was already > on levofloxin for a a sinus infection so I swabbed her nose and notified the > on-site CDC person. For everyone else without the hint of credible exposure I have > been treating with reassurance that their rash or cold is not anthrax, though what > a credible exposure is will probably change if more cases/sites arise. Other ED > attendings have been taking nasal swabs of non-NBC employees who give a vague > history of exposure (e.g. there was white dust in the taxi cab driven by a dark > skinned man). > > I could find no data that states how sensitive or specific a nasal swab is for > anthrax exposure, does any one know? > > Douglas Yoshida MD > Bellevue and NYU hospitals > > "Henry J. Siegelson, MD, FACEP" wrote: > > > I have had to deal with several individuals and families that were worried > > that they might have been anthrax victims. THey either visited Florida > > recently or had an upper respiratory infection. > > > > What is everyone doing to workup these patients? > > > > How are you advising treatment? > > > > Henry J. Siegelson, MD, FACEP > > Atlanta > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <VanceB4660(a)aol.com> > > To: <Hazmat-WMD(a)yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 11:25 AM > > Subject: [Hazmat-WMD] Anthrax - When do we worry? > > > > > I think it's time we started talking about how to evaluate whether or not > > > this anthrax business is a big deal or not. Here are some things that > > would > > > make me worry: > > > > > > 1. The various samples are genetically similar. > > > 2. Similar handwriting on the letters. > > > 3. Brown powder vice white starts showing up. (Anthrax is usually brown. > > You > > > can find any white powder in any kitchen.) > > > 4. More people actually get sick (NOT mass psychogenic illness). > > > > > > What do the rest of you think? > > > > > > Vance Bennett > > > Hazmat Curmudgeon > > > > > > Post message.............Hazmat-WMD(a)Yahoogroups.com > > > Subscribe................Hazmat-WMD-subscribe(a)Yahoogroups.com > > > UnSubscribe..............Hazmat-WMD-unsubscribe(a)Yahoogroups.com > > > HazMat-WMD Archives......http://Yahoogroups.com/archive/Hazmat-WMD > > > Common Files & Folders...http://Yahoogroups.com/files/Hazmat-WMD > > > HazMat Related Bookmarks.http://Yahoogroups.com/links/Hazmat-WMD > > > > > > Forward info about this list to anyone in the HazMat-WMD field. > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > To unsubscribe, send the command "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV(a)ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU > > To unsubscribe, send the command "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV(a)ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU To unsubscribe, send the command "SIGNOFF EMED-L" to LISTSERV(a)ITSSRV1.UCSF.EDU

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Re: WH = FBI = VP
by John Young 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

Is it true Bush wears a Kevlar vest when he parades to and from his chopper for photo ops? All the time he is in public? Is there a lighter more effective material than Kevlar, for a sleeping bag on AF1? What protection could possibly be effective during the CN trip what with all the dumb-tech guided missles going berzerk lately?

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Re: WH = FBI = VP
by mikecabot＠fastcircle.com 13 Oct '01

13 Oct '01

More likely he's holed up at Akamai in Cambridge, MA :) (Both the White House and the FBI are using Akamai to cache and serve their web pages.... no relation to the caching issues being discussed with Safeweb, this is totally benign and similar to what a lot of other high-traffic sites do, like CNN.COM, etc.) Mike > Original Message from Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:05:08 -0700:> > VisualRoute shows that pinging whitehouse.gov produces > exactly the same path as pinging fbi.gov, both ending in > Los Angeles. Is that where Cheney is holed up in the Getty > Combustible Bunker? Sniff the LA impure air, is that La > Brea tar or Halliburton grease? > > Pinging the WH is will shortly be a terrorist act warns Patriot, > so better hurry before the bush hammers john henry. > > Anthrac, quack, quack. > > > > _______________________________________________________________________________ WANT YOUR OWN FREE AND SECURE WEB EMAIL ADDRESS? Visit http://www.fastcircle.com

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