- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

RE: CIA in NYC
by Trei, Peter 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

> Young[SMTP:jya@pipeline.com] > > > The report a while back in the NY Times on the secret > CIA station located in 7 World Trade Center, claimed > its primary role was to surveil UN members and staff. > And its cover was the Secret Service office in the > building (which also housed NYC's Emergency > Operations). [...] > Now whether bin Laden, or whoever planned the attack, > knew of this, or suspected it, could enrich the speculation > about why the towers were targeted. > [...] > But don't expect any findings to be made public is this > is the case, for that might require delving into which > operations in the Center invited retaliation by those > who had been attacked by them. > John: Remember to apply Occam's razor occasionally. The WTC towers were one of the best known landmarks around the world, were filled with people, stood well clear of the surrounding buildings, and symbolized the globalization/ Americanization of the world UBL hates. The WTC towers were (from UBLs presumed viewpoint) about the best US targets he could have picked, simply from a PR, ideology, and practicality standpoint. The presence of a CIA office in a neighbouring building was not required to make the WTC towers target #1. I used to work at 101 Barclay Street, across the street from WTC #7. I watched it going up from my office window. I hated the building - it blocked my view south. 101 Barclay seems to have survived with little damage, possibly because WTC7 shielded it from the falling debris of #1 & #2, and later #7 fell almost staight down. Peter Trei ============================================================================ ================ This e-mail, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and are PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. Access by any other party is unauthorized without the express prior written permission of the sender. If you have received this e-mail in error you may not copy, disclose to any third party or use the contents, attachments or information in any way, Please delete all copies of the e-mail and the attachment(s), if any and notify the sender. Thank You. ============================================================================ ================

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Re: CNN.com on Remailers
by David Honig 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

At 06:56 PM 12/17/01 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Trei, Peter wrote: > >> Yes, I have read the letter - they need to treat input from known remailers >> differently due to worries over spam and flooding attacks, so they treat >> other known remailers as priviliged sources of high volume traffic. Can't spam be repelled by not forwarding email not encrypted to the remailer's key? >> This does not invalidate my point - that such special treatment could lead >> a remop into legal problems. We have two different problems, with mutually >> undesirable solutions. > >If the sending node doesn't know about the destination node, how does it >konw where to send the traffic (even if the sender provides the address)? >The reality is that the remailers must 'know' of each other one way or >another. Simply being part of a 'remailer network' (anonymous or not) >tends to already put one in a 'conspiratorial' situation. Isn't it sufficient for a remailer node to publicly broadcast its existance (and the protocols it handles)? This seems to work and there is no cooperation required --just a one-way broadcast. Mere advertising is not evidence of a conspiracy.

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Chuck Schumer wants to invade privacy of gun buyers, open NICS database
by Declan McCullagh 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> -----

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FC: U.N. meeting hears proposal for global human database, ID #s (fwd)
by Jei 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:11:55 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> To: politech(a)politechbot.com Subject: FC: U.N. meeting hears proposal for global human database, ID #s http://www.smh.com.au/breaking/2001/12/14/FFX058CU6VC.html Refugees meeting hears proposal to register every human in GENEVA, Dec 13 AAP Published: Friday December 14, 7:18 AM Every person in the world would be fingerprinted and registered under a universal identification scheme to fight illegal immigration and people smuggling outlined at a United Nations meeting today. The plan was put forward by Pascal Smet, the head of Belgium's independent asylum review board, at a roundtable meeting with ministers including Australian Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock this afternoon. Mr Smet said the European Union was already considering a Europe-wide system, using either fingerprints or eye scanning technology, to identify citizens. But he said the plan could be extended worldwide. "There are no technical problems. It is only a question of will and investment," he said. "If you look to our societies, we are already registered from birth until death. Our governments know who we are and what we are. But one of the basic problems is the numbers of people in the world who are not registered, who do not have a set identity, and when these people move with real or fake passports, you cannot identify them. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Happy Eid al-Fitr, NYC
by Khoder bin Hakkin 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

Fire Breaks Out at St. John the Divine, Largest Church in United States By Alan ClendenningAssociated Press Writer Published: Dec 18, 2001 NEW YORK (AP) - Fire broke out Tuesday morning at the historic Cathedral of St. John the Divine, with flames shooting from the Episcopal church that has been under construction for more than a century. Part of the roof of an adjoining three-story gift shop caved in but no injuries were reported. The Christmastime fire, which was brought under control within 2 1/2 hours, was largely contained in the main cathedral area, according to fire officials, who said they expected widespread smoke and water damage. The cause of the blaze was under investigation. Up to 200 firefighters were called to the scene at about 7 a.m., an hour before the first Mass of the day at the world's largest gothic cathedral. Smoke poured from the gift shop, and scores of onlookers stood by. "There were clouds of black smoke 40 feet high. The winds were blowing it all over the place," said Juan Cruz, a mechanic who saw the fire on his way to work at nearby Columbia University. ---- Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

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FC: DNA tests show federal officials planted fake evidence of lynx (fwd)
by Jei 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:58:30 -0500 From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> To: politech(a)politechbot.com Subject: FC: DNA tests show federal officials planted fake evidence of lynx http://washingtontimes.com/national/20011217-7117603.htm Rare lynx hairs found in forests exposed as hoax By Audrey Hudson THE WASHINGTON TIMES Federal and state wildlife biologists planted false evidence of a rare cat species in two national forests, officials told The Washington Times. Had the deception not been discovered, the government likely would have banned many forms of recreation and use of natural resources in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest and Wenatchee National Forest in Washington state. The previously unreported Forest Service investigation found that the science of the habitat study had been skewed by seven government officials: three Forest Service employees, two U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service officials and two employees of the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife. The officials planted three separate samples of Canadian lynx hair on rubbing posts used to identify existence of the creatures in the two national forests. DNA testing of two of the samples matched that of a lynx living inside an animal preserve. The third DNA sample matched that of an escaped pet lynx being held in a federal office until its owner retrieved it, federal officials said. [...] ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Spy News] ANALYSIS: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in domestic investigations (fwd)
by Jei 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:06:57 +0100 From: Mario Profaca <Mario.Profaca(a)zg.tel.hr> Reply-To: spynews-owner(a)yahoogroups.com To: "[Spy News]" <spynews(a)yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Spy News] ANALYSIS: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in domestic investigations http://www.nandotimes.com/nation/story/196509p-1908209c.html ANALYSIS: CIA poised for unprecedented involvement in domestic investigations Copyright © 2001 Christian Science Monitor Service Special Report: America Responds By ABRAHAM McLAUGHLIN, Christian Science Monitor WASHINGTON (December 17, 2001 12:09 p.m. EST) - The Central Intelligence Agency has been given new freedom to get involved in domestic surveillance and investigations in ways that are unprecedented in its history. The CIA's intelligence gathering has long been kept as separate as possible from domestic law enforcement, which is bound by strict evidence-gathering rules and legal safeguards protecting the rights of those investigated. But as the nation girds itself against global terrorism carried out on American soil, the barriers between covert, stealthy intelligence and by-the-book domestic law enforcement investigations are beginning to melt. Suddenly, for instance, the CIA will now have access to testimony collected by federal grand juries. And the CIA, FBI, and other federal agencies are, for the first time, being allowed to share vast amounts of information ranging from phone records and credit cards statements to profiles of suspected terrorists. These shrinking restraints come as new anti-terrorism legislation adopted this fall grants the FBI far broader wiretapping and other investigative powers. And while many see the new cooperation as essential in combating the enormous threat, for others it raises civil-liberties concerns - and resurrects dark memories of CIA monitoring of domestic groups, including 1970s anti-war protesters. Those domestic intrusions drove Congress and the president to tighten restrictions dating back to the 1947 creation of the CIA that bar the agency from any "domestic police function." "Traditionally, there's been a sharp demarcation between FBI and CIA turf ... but now there's more ambiguity," says Loch Johnson, author of "America's Secret Power: The CIA in a Democratic Society." One of the most-significant changes is the CIA and other government agencies' new access to one of the most powerful domestic investigative tools - federal grand-jury proceedings - under the USA Patriot Act, which passed in the wake of Sept. 11. Now, if any grand-jury investigation involves matters of "foreign intelligence or counterintelligence" its fruits may be shared with relevant federal agencies, the statute reads. "That's a big change in criminal law," notes Robert Davis, founder of the University of Mississippi's Journal of National Security Law. Critics worry that "foreign intelligence" information is a very broad category that extends far beyond just fighting terrorism. They also worry the information flow won't just be one way. Instead, the CIA may eventually suggest certain avenues for investigation. Defenders of the change argue prosecutors will be zealous about defending their grand-jury proceedings from outside interference. What really worries critics is the CIA's past history of domestic operations. In the '60s and '70s, for instance, Operation CHAOS included CIA involvement in spying on U.S. citizens including anti-war protesters, black militant groups and even congressmen. President Nixon's White House encouraged these activities, convinced that foreign powers stood behind anti-war radicals. Yet advocates of the changes say the present threats on American soil differ significantly from the domestic snooping conducted by the Nixon administration. In fact, supporters point out that drastic government measures - such as Abraham Lincoln's suspension of habeas corpus during the Civil War - have typically been temporary. Indeed, the most-controversial elements of the USA Patriot Act do eventually expire. In the meantime, the stepped-up cooperation is crucial, says Gates, who argues the relevant historical parallel is not Operation CHAOS but Pearl Harbor. In 1941 - as in 2001 - "disparate government agencies had bits of information" that pointed to an attack. "But there was no single agency to pull everything together in a coherent analysis of the threat," Gates says. The new information sharing is the only way to prepare against new attacks. The USA Patriot act allows the CIA, FBI, the Border Patrol, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service to share information broadly. And it's likely to lead to FBI and CIA agents working closely together here in the U.S. This greater cooperation comes at a time of significantly increased federal investigation powers. For instance, under the PATRIOT act, law enforcement can now more easily conduct secret searches of homes and businesses, while a change to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act makes it easier for law enforcement to obtain wiretaps. Such activity may help prevent future terrorist acts. But there is also concern that it will lead to a blending of the intelligence and law-enforcement cultures. Yet there are hints it won't be so easy for the two agencies to work together, given the history of antagonism between the two and the CIA's reluctance to repeat its past mistakes. Somehow, experts say, the agencies must strike a tricky balance. "The concept of keeping them separate makes good sense in general," says University of Virginia law professor John Norton Moore. But after Sept. 11, "it's inconceivable not to have the two talking to each other." --- This mail, sent by Mario Profaca, is clean, certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.307 / Virus Database: 168 - Release Date: 11. 12. 01 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Call any Phone in the World from your PC with CrystalVoice -LOW rates world-wide - $0.039/min in U.S. FREE trial. Click here. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Ib1xVB/IxbDAA/ySSFAA/TySplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ============================================== SPY NEWS is OSINT newsletter and discussion list associated to Mario's Cyberspace Station http://mprofaca.cro.net/mainmenu.html ============================================== *** FAIR USE NOTICE. This message contains copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Spy News is making it available without profit to SPY NEWS eGroup members who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information in their efforts to advance the understanding of intelligence and law enforcement organizations, their activities, methods, techniques, human rights, civil liberties, social justice and other intelligence related issues, for non-profit research and educational purposes only. We believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law. If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use,' you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------------------------------- SPY NEWS home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spynews To change your subscription mode to Daily Digest (one message a day) send a blank message: mailto:spynews-digest@yahoogroups.com Please note that replying to THIS e-mail will not remove you from the mailing list. To unsubscribe SPYNEWS send a blank message: mailto:spynews-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Mario Profaca, independent journalist, SPY NEWS eGroup list owner, editor & moderator, is a member of of the Committee of Concerned Journalists, an initiative administered through the offices of the Project for Excellence in Journalism in Washington, D.C. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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[Spy News] Bush administration seeks to relax curbs on FBI domestic spying (fwd)
by Jei 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:56:04 +0100 From: Mario Profaca <Mario.Profaca(a)zg.tel.hr> Reply-To: spynews-owner(a)yahoogroups.com To: "[Spy News]" <spynews(a)yahoogroups.com> Subject: [Spy News] Bush administration seeks to relax curbs on FBI domestic spying http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/dec2001/spy-d18.shtml Bush administration seeks to relax curbs on FBI domestic spying By Kate Randall 18 December 2001 Attorney General John Ashcroft is considering relaxing restrictions on the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) that limit spying on political organizations, churches and other groups in the United States. If put into effect, the change in FBI rules would constitute a fundamental loosening of curbs on the agencys domestic intelligence operations, and would allow the government to spy on groups and individuals solely because of their political beliefs. Ashcroft said the proposed change is part of the effort to shift the axis of Justice Department activity from the prosecution of crime to the prevention of terrorism. In the wake of the September 11 events, the Bush administration has issued a rash of executive orders that attack basic democratic rights and challenge civil liberties long protected by the US Constitution. These orders have included the authorization of secret military tribunals to try alleged terrorists; the roundup of more than a thousand mainly Middle Eastern men, some of them detained indefinitely and in secret; and the authorization of eavesdropping on attorney-client conversations of those in custody. The new Justice Department proposal poses a particular threat to the civil liberties of any individual or political organization that opposes the domestic or foreign policy of the government. The loosening of restrictions would allow the FBI to spy on groups or individualsincluding the use of roving wiretaps and e-mail surveillancewithout providing a judge with proof of probable cause. Presently, meetings of political groups, services at mosques or churches and other private gatherings are off-limits to the FBI unless it can prove the likelihood that a crime is in progress. Widespread domestic spying was carried out in the 1960s and 70s as part of the FBIs notorious COINTELPRO (counter-intelligence program) operation. Under then-FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, COINTELPRO targeted black nationalists, civil rights activists and opponents of the Vietnam War. Those under surveillance included boxer Muhammad Ali, actress Jane Fonda, Dr. Benjamin Spock, Dr. Martin Luther King and the Black Panther Party, among many others. The FBI carried out a vicious campaign for almost 20 years against opponents of government policy, utilizing such methods as illegal wiretaps, blackmail and forgery, extortion and in some cases outright murder. FBI agents were also involved in incitement to violence in their work in racist organizations such as the Ku Klux Klan. When the FBIs widespread surveillance methods began to be exposed in the 1970s, Congress was obliged to carry out an investigation into the agencys spying activities and methods. In the wake of this probe, the bureau adopted internal guidelines prohibiting agents from using charges of subversion or the threat of terrorism to justify the monitoring of Americans political activities. Ashcroft now wants to rewrite the FBI code of conduct to allow the agency to resume spying on its domestic political opponents. COINTELPROs dirty record An examination of two COINTELPRO cases makes clear the ominous implications of Ashcrofts proposal, and the dangers posed to democratic rights by the revival of these methods. One of the most infamous cases of FBI infiltration was in connection with the 1963 bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama, which left four young girls dead and injured another 22 adults and children. The racially motivated bombing was the twenty-first in eight years and the third in only 11 days, following federal orders to integrate the citys public schools. As early as 1964, FBI agents in the KKK identified four men in the 16th Street Church bombing. However FBI Director Hoover, a fervent opponent of civil rights, blocked their prosecution. The case was eventually shut down in 1968 with no charges being filed against the KKK members. The FBI maintained its network of agents inside the Birmingham KKK following the bombing, including one of its most notorious informants, Gary T. Rowe, who later admitted to involvement in violent assaults on blacks. These included the 1961 attack on Freedom Riders at the Birmingham bus station and the 1965 murder of Viola Liuzzo, a 39-year-old civil rights activist from Detroit. The Justice Department later acknowledged it had known about Rowes connection to these racist attacks, but claimed it had no evidence linking him to the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. The FBI finally reopened the case in 1996, leading to the indictment in 2000 of two KKK members, Thomas Blanton and Bobby Cherry, on first-degree and reckless murder charges. Cherry was ruled mentally incompetent to stand trial, but Blanton was finally convicted last May of four counts of first-degree murder. Another COINTELPRO case involved FBI infiltration of the Black Panther Party. Elmer Geronimo Pratt was arrested and charged with the kidnap-murder of Los Angeles schoolteacher Caroline Olsen. Olsen and her husband were attacked on a tennis court in Santa Monica, California in 1968 by two black men; she was abducted and killed. Her husband Kenneth identified Pratt as one of the assailants three years later from a photo provided by the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD). Geronimo Pratt was framed up as part of the FBI vendetta against the Black Panthers. The main witness against him was Julius Butler, who had functioned as an informant for both the FBI and LAPD inside the Panthers. Butler had been expelled from the group by Pratt because he advocated violence. At trial, Butler testified that Pratt had confessed to the murder of Caroline Olsen. The FBI closed its file on Butler during the trial so that he could deny being an informer when questioned. He resumed his informing activities after the trial. Pratt was convicted of kidnapping and murder in 1972 and served 27 years in jail for a crime he did not commit before finally being released in 1999. A Superior Court judge in California ruled that his conviction should be overturned due to misconduct by the Los Angeles district attorneys office. These two cases give only a glimpse of the types of domestic counterintelligence methods the Bush administration now wants to revive. As with the majority of provisions enacted since September 11 in the name of the war on terrorismmost of them by executive fiatthey pose a threat to the civil liberties not only of alleged terrorists but the American population as a whole. The proposed change in spying guidelines would mean political groups could be targeted for surveillance simply because the government designates them as subversive due to their political views. Such groups could include left-wing or socialist parties, workers organizations, civil rights advocates or anyone who speaks out against government policy. Former FBI Director Louis Freeh gave an indication of what types of organizations could be targeted for accelerated domestic spying as a result of relaxed regulations on the FBI. In speech on May 10, 2001, Freeh said, Domestic terrorist groups represent interests that span the full spectrum of political and economic viewpoints, as well as social issues and concerns. The former FBI chief included in his list of groups that could be designated as terrorist by the government Anarchists and extremist socialist groupsmany of which, such as the Workers World Party, Reclaim the Streets and Carnival Against Capitalismhave an international presence and, at times, also represent a potential threat in the United States. --- This mail, sent by Mario Profaca, is clean, certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com) Version: 6.0.309 / Virus Database: 170 - Release Date: 17. 12. 01 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Need new boots for winter? Looking for a perfect gift for your shoe loving friends? Zappos.com is the perfect fit for all your shoe needs! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ltdUpD/QrSDAA/ySSFAA/TySplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> ============================================== SPY NEWS is OSINT newsletter and discussion list associated to Mario's Cyberspace Station http://mprofaca.cro.net/mainmenu.html ============================================== *** FAIR USE NOTICE. This message contains copyrighted material whose use has not been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. Spy News is making it available without profit to SPY NEWS eGroup members who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information in their efforts to advance the understanding of intelligence and law enforcement organizations, their activities, methods, techniques, human rights, civil liberties, social justice and other intelligence related issues, for non-profit research and educational purposes only. We believe that this constitutes a 'fair use' of the copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Law. If you wish to use this copyrighted material for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use,' you must obtain permission from the copyright owner. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------------------------------- SPY NEWS home page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spynews To change your subscription mode to Daily Digest (one message a day) send a blank message: mailto:spynews-digest@yahoogroups.com Please note that replying to THIS e-mail will not remove you from the mailing list. To unsubscribe SPYNEWS send a blank message: mailto:spynews-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Mario Profaca, independent journalist, SPY NEWS eGroup list owner, editor & moderator, is a member of of the Committee of Concerned Journalists, an initiative administered through the offices of the Project for Excellence in Journalism in Washington, D.C. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Using Multiple Mini-Sensors In Surveillance System
by Jim Choate 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

http://unisci.com/stories/20014/1218011.htm -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Cypherpunk Ban,
by mattd 18 Dec '01

18 Dec '01

BS >>Assassination-Politics-Quality Anonymity *isn't* available or usable, I dont believe that you believe *that* Its bollocks anyway rip. >>AP-Quality payer-and-payee-anonymous digital cash isn't available, Op centre's BUMs are.AP in its Operation Soft Drill form protects the switch to e-cash,least thats the plan.rip van. >>any discussion of "how could it be used?" or "like, that'd be cool, huh huh!", at least by people who *do* understand the technology and state of its deployment, is strictly speculative philosophical bullshitting, not active conspiracy. Thanks,Ill be sure to call you as an expert witness.You might consider a career as a journalist or priest as added insurance.Just to be on the *safe*side. >>Now, it's possible that the Fedz in question really understood this at the time, I think they did,yet they carried on,thats what Im going to tell joshua.Robb london and jeff gordon deserve to die. >>Jim Bell's such a mainstream sympathy-inspiring figure, especially with his alleged history of stink-bombing IRS offices and his alleged paperwork-based harassment of bureaucrats and politicians allegedly with the so-called "common-law court" folks, some of whom allegedly *are* dangerous loons, that in the absence of extemely competent counsel, skilled at not only explaining really obscure technical material to hostile non-techies but also at dealing with seriously uncooperative clients, a conviction was a slam-dunk, so not only does it give them Federal Brownie Points for busting a "dangerous terrorist assassin" and preventing him from doing anything else real, but it serves as a deterrent for future JimBell-Wanabees who *don't* understand that the technology isn't there, and besides, he was in their face, and kept getting in their face after they'd successfully framed him. << Lock up all those out of the *mainstream*? Associating with loons? Said the Pot to the kettle.Counsel was sacked. Obscure technical detail?Like how to use a search engine! WTF! Federal points for spending a small fortune on someone who needed an intervention order,like thousands of others,every day.So he did pull 10 big ones for being a "dangerous terrorist assassin" In which case this is not *speculative philosophical bullshitting*.at all BS,its something very real and very dangerous to those deluded fools that think they rule us.Make up your fucking mind.It is or it isnt.They are or they aren't.Deterrent seems to have boomeranged on them as they look like keystone Kops for throwing the book at a shadow.Didnt deter CJ,didnt deter me and Iv'e had someone make a 'prediction' already.The publicity jim achieved with tactical brilliance alerted me to AP.How did you hear about it? The technology is right here,right now for AP to be used in its ,"let it all hang out" mode,or,as I like to call it,from the essay,operation *soft drill*.Look around,its here all right,in your face. Jim gets in the shit covered *face* of the authorities because he's an anarchist.Not a plastic timmy mayboy anarchist but a real flesh and blood anarchist.Are you or have you ever been a *crypto-anarchist*? >>Is it likely that Jeff Gordon understood what was real about the tech and was doing this out of pure malice, as opposed to not understanding it and actually believing that Bell was a real threat? I doubt he cared enough about justice that, if he did come to understand that AP wasn't real, that he'd either apologize for his mistake or let it get in the way of an easy win.<< It was noticed at the time the clash of interests.Claggart gordon lied about our billy jim budd.For that he should die,soon. >>And CJ just kept jumping in the way yelling "Nyahh Nyahh" and looking wacko, and even back before 9/11, furriners didn't have civil rights, and he didn't get the "Oh, he's just Canadian" exception to that, because he was scaring the Canadians too. Jesus H Christ scared the shit out of the moneychangers and might have hurt a child,actually he was under suspicion of pedophilia so its lucky they nailed him to a tree. Leonard peltier was kidnapped/deported from canada,hell I was.FUCK KANADA,FUCKING FASCIST AMERIKKKAS ASS BUDDIES! If its illegal to scare people,lock up cheney,asscroft and armitage.The whole rotten coup crew.Your real brave taking on people who cant answer back. >>I've almost always found the weather in Seattle to be gorgeous, except one or two times that it was also pouring rain here in San Narcisco; maybe I'm just lucky. And Seattlers *smoke* a lot also, and it's always that nasty tobacco stuff, unlike down here :-) So its true what they say about the long term effects. >>But the bigger problems are that they're Fedz, and that they fundamentally don't have much useful work to do, Not like *me* >>there's real hostility to them up there which they respond to in macho-tribal fashion, and face it, if you've got a choice of keeping your job by doing a big dangerous-terrorist bust, would *you* rather go after the real Aryan Nations types, or would you rather go after a Jim Bell or CJ which gets you almost as many Brownie Points without actually being dangerous or requiring serious police work? Your a sack of wet brownies if you think those bozo's got anything out of it except decreased life expectancy.They are good at wasting taxpayers hardearned.Theres some real AN types on this list too btw,meet Tim May.and my east coast hitman.Some serious dangerous work was done in portland recently,Kudos to my e-mail mate in the PPD. >>Sure, your coworkers might know it's a sucker play, but it looks almost as good on the paperwork that goes to Washington, which is good for the budget and your department's reputation, and in return they'll be happy you got this annoyance out of their face, and it's not like they're getting much non-cynical self-respect out of what they're usually doing. Great insight,sure your not a *fed*? You must be,or else your off your face.Why dont you smell what your shovelling.

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