- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Illusional delusions
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

>>The solution for money laundering is to remove the "money", as defined by the state, from the equation. Crypto removes the content from everyones's eyes except the two parties that communicate. That is what crypto can do. The moment one wants to convert some bits to state-money she is doomed. If you want to rely/convert at any point to the state-money you will become a money launderer/terrorist/whatever. There is simply no way around this. Paper cash is not a solution, since it is observable. Anything observable is not a solution. This is a fundamental problem - not unlike futile attempts to stop copying the content one can hear or see, or to invent foolproof watermarks. Instead, we need a new principle that will not include state-money in any form or shape. Thinking aloud ... this may be silly: Let's start from something that works - secret key message exchange, maybe enhanced with PK key exchange for the carefree. A person, by defintion, trusts itself, so currency known only to the two parties should be reasonably safe. Every pair of traders have their own currency. A disbalance (A owes B but C owes A) is resolved by creating new B-C currency. There is no anonymity, but the network is hardly connected and therefore reasonably safe. The system is hardly new but it was never done in software AFAIK. You never do business with someone whose reputation you can't instrument. But someone can start a business for reputation building. Again, hardly new. This doesn't enable global trade, but frankly I don't care. I don't gain much from it anyway. Going through a series of intermediaries to buy some fine Afghan pot is a small price to pay for getting out of the state's sight. In other words, with small transistors and digsigs there is no need for centralised money at all. No more mainframes, thank you. Big business will suffer, but somehow I don't feel sad. So, tell me, is this silly ?<< Yes,sadly,because your talking about barter(BUMs or Barter Unit of Money)These would be assessed as dollars,pounds,francs,marks etc for the purposes of taxation. Their very existence would be portrayed in court as evidence of malfeasance,much like the AP essay was in the drey..bell case. As soon as the state feels sufficiently threatened, as it probably will very shortly, it'll crackdown,much the same as its doing now to hawala.So you need mass civil disobedience to bring down the shared hallucination that we somehow need a state to redistribute in an equitable and sustainable way.Revolution in short.Failing that you need APster to take on the tax collectors and the agents investigating their disappearance.Again revolution follows on quickly.The state doesn't like its servants getting the chop.Small business will and does suffer under the iron heel of the state.Crypto-anarchy based on bomb-proof remailers,APster and BUMs is desirable and close through both technical and political advances.The state should suffer,big business should suffer.Under the present blinkered vision of capitalist crypto-anarchy they have little to fear. "Direct action_ is what it's all about. Undermining the state through the spread of espionage networks, through undermining faith in the tax system, through even more direct applications of the right tools at the right times. When Cypherpunks are called "terrorists," we will have done our jobs." Font: Daschle-Anthrax-Bold

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Everyone a Bank.
by mattd 25 Dec '01

25 Dec '01

http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/#free_banking Better looking than Faustines fat apologist for the NWO of corporate fascism.Also some interesting reading for e-cash minded C/punks.Reminded me of a bank that started soon after the Oklahoma land rush with a tent and shingle.Extract... "The claim that monetary systems can function smoothly in the absence of government regulations sometimes raises the question, Why do governments intervene in money? Although economic misunderstanding and pressure from special interests within the banking industry account for many observed forms of intervention, Lawrence White and I suggest, in our forthcoming Economic Inquiry paper, "A Fiscal Theory of Government's Role in Money," that government intervention in the money industry has largely been a result of fiscal pressures to extract revenue from money holders. " They cant tax the web so I guess crypto-anarchy is not a question of if,now,but when.BUMs on seats. Throughout the Western world, December 24 -- January 1, "THE HOLIDAYS," is a period of continuous merrymaking & zerowork.

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Hi there.
by Patricia de Leon 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

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Re: Tim May;Anarcho-phony,cheap fraud and despicable coward.RIP.Got Gabe?
by mattd 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

>> Interesting to note that the system you bash, for the sake of argument lets call it "timmayism" is really in favor of individual freedom (Tim, if you are not a libertarian, which is what I believe you to be, given your writtings, please correct me) << Well Tim just pissed on the faces of the Lib party faithful in a very recent post.Let the archive correct you. >>so things like "domination", "exploitation", "profit", etc... are perfectly acceptable so long as two people consentualy enter into an agreement. << Like those agreements that turned Thoreu into an implacable foe of the state? What planet are you living on? >>The simple problem with what you are describing is that is translates into "mattd decides whats is good for everyone else" << According to APster there can be no "assassination politics Tsar",Whats to stop a few quad anons lurking here to have me killed.My whereabouts and description are known. >>The very basic proof of this is that, given what you are writting, if I enter into an agreement with Mr. May to rent his property, an agreement I am perfectly acceptable to and that I am perfectly free to decline to enter into; he is being an evil landlor-profiteer. I am perfectly happy with the situation, but by your standards that wasn't a "free" (your definition of free baffles me) exchange.<< Your free to enter tammies asshole,you seem easily baffled.Would you like to buy a bridge? >>Hey! I think Lenin might like talking to you, knock on Stalin's door too, since you just described communism. << The right scream 'commies' at us while the MLers scream 'Fash! ' This is how we know we are on the open road to Anarchy. >>| Anarchism is a variant of socialism an7ar7chism (nr-kzm) n. The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished. so7cial7ism (ssh-lzm) n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. Pick one, stick to it. Ah...Libertarian socialism? Anarchism is shorter.I'm picking my nose,you can stick to your funkin wagnells. >>Maybe your read on "free market" is different then mine, but I would say a worker has as much right to not work at a company as the employer has to not employ that worker if he chooses not to. << Todays free markets would not survive the collapse of govts.Tammy may used to pretend to be a 'crypto-anarchist',in favor of the ,'collapse of govts'.Its getting harder to do that now with all these real anarchists about.Choose the two headed dog,anarcho-capitalism as is your free right.Im not trying to convert anyone.Good luck with it. >>Anarchism also stands against state socialism and "Communism," because... Isn't this a little different than what you said earlier? << Im against state socialism and "Communism" What did I say before? Im only human so I sometimes express contradictions.Im opposed to violence in politics and paradoxically support APster.Go figure. >>Anarchism is a very often misunderstood political theory (not ideology,<< >> Hey, enlighten us, show us some background studies, show us some legitimate writtings and test cases to prove what you say. I would imagine I am not alone in thinking you are full of shit with nothing to substantiate what you have to say. << Google is my home page.I have no other God than Google.There is only one Google. >>because ideology means a fixed set of prescribed ideas that are Interesting that you should bring this up. We have seen nothing from you that falls outside this category. In fact, we have seen nothing from you that is worthwhile period. But since others might not know this and because some of us feel bored,<< Very punk of you,cool. we respond. If you really care about the topics you blab about, then get yourself away from that computer you must spend hours upon hours in front of, get yourself into a library and in a few years, come on out and lets have intelligent discussions. Read up on different political ideas and systems, different ideologies and pick the one you like best.<< Like Read in the encyclopedia brittanica on anarchism?Yeah I havent seen that yet. >>The impression one gets from reading what you write (other than, what the fuck, this list used to have decent shit on it)<< When Jimmy B was here is still interesting reading,soightonly. >> is that you have no idea what you are talking about, you musta picked up a little pamplet somewhere that said "anarchy is cool, we bust up stores in the name of freedom" and gone with it.<< Dear Abbie,shame he's not with us and creeps like tammy may are. >>If you are just wasting our time here, which is the more likely explanation, then well, I just hope you don't actually believe the shit you write, there are plenty other stupid people in the world, it would have been nice if this list didn't attract as many as it seems to. --Gabe Well we didnt approach the godwin la-grange point so maybe Ill keep writing this list till some patents run out.There's some thing called a filter? tammy may show you how to use it.Dont let him pick your pockets,or cornpatch ya though.

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"Shoes for industry!" Give May the Boot.
by mattd 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

>>"Shoes for industry!" The general point is that it is going to be very difficult to stop persons willing to die in their acts from carrying them out. Like real anarchists? Ones that propertarians want to shoot.Hard to get em all. >>Planes are very fragile things and explosives can be formed into ordinary-looking objects (cases of computers, coffee mugs, belt buckles, etc.) and with very little vapor emission (smell).<< Reputations are very fragile,tammies is gettin a bit on the nose. Chemical timers even let bombers get away (acid eating through something in a sealed ampoule...). An attacker who opens an aircraft emergency door in flight could also do a lot of damage (to the airline and travel industry, if nothing else). Fact is, soft targets abound. Jim bell picked up on that. >>There are solutions, but not necessarily the police state measures now unfolding. We talked about this a lot after 911.<< Your talking a lot.But your not sayin much.Say something once,why say it again?

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Re: Simplest possible ecash mint.Mays going Simple.Blood Simple.
by mattd 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

>>This is a terribly important point. Implementing this "atomic transaction" would be a major step. Having a Web site that does this EVEN WITH PLAY TOKENS would be a useful step. (Many dislike toy applications, but a site which did this would be a way to play with the software, test the reliability, and get ideas for further developments. The "Play Tokens" would be of literally no value, ostensibly.) << Tammy May Obnoxiously after boosting 'sweet spots' and some rubbish called anarcho-capitalism I now want to play on Xmas day! Fork off uncle scrooge. >>Like a cellular automata, the basic rules dramatically affect future evolutionary paths.<< Like a sneak thief and coward stealing "anarchy".Now the virus seeks to hijack the cell.Theres precedent.Tammy "Mitochondria" May >>With the proper atomic transaction protocols, the rest unfolds naturally. Money changers can profit by returning some fraction (e.g., 0.99) of what they are given. << Im an expert on atomic energy(in favor) and micro-transactions,Dont listen to Dr jeckle May who scorns micro-payments. {Whats a millicent ghetto Dr May? Oh never mind,Ill just have some more egg nog} >>Tim May "That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." --Samuel Adams You can keep your slaves as well and all.No wonder george Mason refused to sign that crap.Tammy boys now free to frantically oil his barrel ,low calibre,large bore.

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selam 2
by ARZU COLAK 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

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Re: More on remailers.
by Adam Shostack 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 01:21:27PM -0800, Len Sassaman wrote: | | In conclusion, I leave you with a question: if remailer users are reduced | to a small number of high-paying remailer customers for whom anonymity is | not a game, but a matter of life or death, could a mix-net be made to | provide any sufficient degree of security? "No" is the easy answer. Say | yes, and prove it. No. If your anonymity set is small, then using the system calls attention to you, and your adversary can simply attack all the users with physical layer attacks (bugged keyboards, video cameras in ceilings, tempest, etc.). Further, if the user set is small you're probably more concerned with unobservability than with unlinkability or untracability. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

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Re: simplest possible ecash mint
by Nomen Nescio 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

Ryan Lackey writes: > > I don't believe "normal users" should ever interact directly with the > mint; using the mint as a reissue server only in normal operation is a > key optimization -- especially when coupled with tamper-resistant mint > hardware. Easier to develop, easier to operate, easier to audit. > Users should purchase cash from change makers; the issuer could also > operate a change maker, and can handle sales to change-makers separately. You're using some of these terms without defining them clearly: mint, issuer, and change maker. Earlier you said the change maker was responsible for changing between ecash and something of value, presumably including other currencies. Presumably the mint is the cryptographic engine which issues ecash coins. The issuer is apparently someone who is allowed to force the mint to issue coins at will, although the mint is supposed to log and report on such interventions. (Anyone can destroy coins, so an issuer is not needed for that functionality.) Can you explain how these three roles would work in a transaction where Alice gets some ecash for dollars, pays Bob in ecash, who turns the ecash back into dollars? Here is how it seems like it should work. The change maker Carol has a bunch of ecash she stands ready to sell. Alice gives her $X in dollars, along with blinded data to become Alice's ecash. The change maker does an exchange operation at the mint, giving the mint $X in the change maker's own coins, along with the blinding factors from Alice. The mint gives back new blinded coins which Carol passes to Alice, who unblinds them to get her ecash. Alice passes the ecash to Bob. He does an exchange operation at the mint to get new coins and to verify that Alice's cash is good. He then delivers whatever goods or service Alice has paid for. Bob later wants dollars, so he goes to change maker Carol and delivers to her ecash. She does an exchange at the mint to verify that Bob's coins are good, and then sends Bob dollars in return for his ecoins. This sequence conflicts somewhat with your model. Bob had to interact directly with the mint, and you said that normal users would not. But only the mint can verify the validity of coins so it seems to be necessary. The issuer was not involved in this transaction. Apparently he is only there to inflate the currency. You should consider eliminating the issuer, who can easily cause trouble. At startup time let the mint generate its keys and emit a single high-value coin. That will be the money supply for all time. Allow a banking system to grow around this "high-powered" currency and fractional reserve bank loans will automatically adjust the money supply as needed. See Selgin, http://www.terry.uga.edu/~selgin/.

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Improve The Reliability Of Windows With This Product 23233
by k20619＠inbox.ru 24 Dec '01

24 Dec '01

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