- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: CNN.com - WiFi activists on free Web crusade - Nov. 29, 2002 (fwd)
by Dave Howe 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

Jim Choate wrote: > On Sat, 30 Nov 2002, Dave Howe wrote: > The scaling problem is a valid one up to a point. The others are not. > The biggest problem is people trying to do distributed computing using > non-distributed os'es (eg *nix clones and Microsloth). not as such, no. the vast majority of "free internet cloud" users couldn't care less about computer resources and/or distributed computing - they want to access websites, ftp servers and read/send their email. with a large(ish) number of otherwise standalone nodes, you need to worry about addressing space, routing and (to conserve what little bandwidth you have to the classic internet) caching. ad-hoc routing also doesn't scale well - so you get into issues of cells mapping to address ranges and dynamic allocation to mobile nodes as they move from cell to cell (there are probably better ways to do that than cells and static ranges, but self-networking swarms blow out their bandwidth purely negotiating routing long before the amount of traffic those nodes needs becomes an issue) its possible I am wrong and there is a wonderful distributed-computing method to solve these purely network routing problems, but it is news to me. >> 2. no matter how large the new network becomes, it still needs a >> link to the "old" network; > Granted, up to a point. That point is when this network has more > resources than the 'old' networks. At some point the old networks > move over and start running from the new one. that would require that the new network be not only larger (and more cost effective) but joined up enough (and routing-efficient enough) to see it become the primary backbone. I am willing to imagine a world where "classic" isps have a peering arrangement with such cloud networks (giving free access to their own sites in return for free access to Cloud sites by their customers) but there is always the prisoner's dilemma (which has been attempted by so many ISPs lately) of refusing to peer with anyone they think they can sell transit to instead. >> almost all ISPs frown on use of home connections for sharing >> more than just the owner's machines, and many consider using even >> unmetered in a manner they didn't provision for (ie, using unmetered >> more than 100 hours a month at the full bandwidth limit) as "abuse" >> and end the contracts of those who do so. what you would need would >> be an ISP (or large commercial) style contract with a guaranteeed >> bandwidth and dedicated ip addresses - which do not come cheap >> enough to be worth giving away. > Bullshit on the too expensive to give away. A typical commercial setup (2mb bandwidth, no ratio, no contention (sharing) over a dedicated line) is about 700ukp/month. (say about a thousand dollars). ok, to a large commercial operation that is about the cost of one employee - probably even less. assuming that it came out of a pr budget though, that is one less staff member and/or one less campaign a year, for the (dubious) benefit of whatever pr you could get by donating it. I didn't say it was too expensive to give way, I said it was too expensive to be *worth* giving away compared to cheaper pr stunts that don't have to paid for every year as an ongoing cost (with all the pr loss of having to shut it down if it becomes too much of a drain) and that is a *recent* cost - as little as two years ago you could pay that for a 512K link. > Irrelevant since there are plenty of commercial feeds out there that > are not ISP's. yes, of course there are - but they aren't cheap. the US has a history of cheap connectivity and free local calls - the uk (along with most of the rest of the world) doesn't. > I keep seeing thes ney saying views yet the guerrilla networks just > keep getting bigger... There is a ratio thing - anyone with a home broadband connection (which is a lot more common in london, where most of the free MAN schemes seem to be concentrated) can afford to carry a few freeloaders on an ad-hoc basis, and it isn't currently in the interests of the telco monopoly to crack down on it - it doesn't cut into their core business (selling phone lines and leased lines) and the traffic blips can be absorbed by the ISP who has statistical models of how much they can underprovision their total sold broadband and/or dialup pool bandwidth by without complaints (the monopoly, who is also an ISP got its sums wrong a couple of years back when it first went unmetered and the *average* bandwidth allocation during busy times was less than 2Kbits - and that was dialup pool only) If the number of freeloaders became significant, and more importantly, became predominantly home users (who want continuous high bandwidth) rather than passing "war driving" people grabbing a few ks of download for email or a quick website surf purely because it is cool) then it would both cut into the bandwidth available to the person paying for it, and the higher average load curve would alert both the isp and the telco to take a closer look at why that user is using so much bandwidth. This is in a world where you are committing breach of contract to the monopoly telco's isp if you use the unmetered home service and attempt to use a vpn connection to your employer's network (which is "business use" and therefore needs a business dialup account at eight times the cost) and where the unmetered service drops the connection every two hours to prevent you running servers and discourage large downloads.... Yes, I would like to see more MAN "guerrilla" networks to compete with the monopoly telco - both for local links (and a surprising amount of local traffic could happily stay local - particularly most of the high-bandwidth games servers) and voice-over-IP. however, that isn't the same as free internet service, as ultimately someone has to pay for the bandwidth that leaves the local MAN cloud and travels elsewhere - and given the local monopoly telco and the big-name so called "tier one" isps would all want their cut, I can't see free internet ever happening in the UK - however, I *can* see a high-bandwidth, uk only cloud that the majority of the uk users connect to, with mail servers and webservers, supplimented by a dialup isp account for access to the internet as a whole; could that gradually expand until almost everything you need is reachable via "the cloud"? yes, possibly, if you are interested only in stuff on your own continent. but I don't expect to live long enough to see the current hierachical and big-money dominated internet replaced by an anarchistic global cloud - not just because of scaling and routing issues, but because the land surface (and distribution of population centres) is just not continuous enough to support even a continental cloud in my lifetime using current wifi technology - and there is little enough incentive for those with a vested interest in the system remaining as it is now to improve technology until that *is* possible.

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Re: CNN.com - WiFi activists on free Web crusade - Nov. 29, 2002 (fwd)
by Dave Howe 30 Nov '02

30 Nov '02

> http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/11/21/yourtech.wifis/index.html Its a nice idea, but unfortunately gets easily bitten by the usual networking bugbears 1. large wifi networks start to hit scaling problems - they start to need routers and name services that are relatively expensive, and ip address ranges start to become a scarce resource. 2. no matter how large the new network becomes, it still needs a link to the "old" network; almost all ISPs frown on use of home connections for sharing more than just the owner's machines, and many consider using even unmetered in a manner they didn't provision for (ie, using unmetered more than 100 hours a month at the full bandwidth limit) as "abuse" and end the contracts of those who do so. what you would need would be an ISP (or large commercial) style contract with a guaranteeed bandwidth and dedicated ip addresses - which do not come cheap enough to be worth giving away. 3. unmetered is only just becoming common in england, and is still mostly on 56K modem. broadband is often *massively* underprovisioned, and quite often all the connections in an area feed to a single fixed-bandwidth multiplexor at the telecomms office, so adding additional connections doesn't actually add any bandwidth at all. the *only* end user deal is 500kb down, 250kb up shared amongst *50* people in your area (the uk has a telecomms monopoly from a recently privatised company that has already forced two would-be competitors out of the market). Even now (given expected usage patterns) the mere existance of a microsoft OS service pack more than 30mb in size is enough to throw available bandwidth per-user below modem levels....

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Anyone heard about the Berkeley college student?
by Tyler Durden 29 Nov '02

29 Nov '02

In the Chinese papers over the last few days they've been reporting an incident that happened to a Chinese UC Berkeley college student, who was using her cell phone to discuss playing some sort of videogame. The videogame involves placing "explosives" in various places in the game. Apparently, whithin minutes after completing the call, police (or other) officers showed up at her room and brought her in for questioning. She apparently brought the officers over to the friend's house to show them the videogame, "proving" that she was indeed talking about a videogame. Has anyone heard of this in the "regular" (ie, non-Chinese) press? The Chinese folks are of course up in arms about the apparent "profiling" this would imply, apparently ignoring the deeper implications. (For instance, did they actually get a wire tap for this monitoring? If so, why? If not, well...) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Perfumes and flavours from Italy
by Maurizio Borgassi 29 Nov '02

29 Nov '02

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Re: Anyone heard about the Berkeley college student?
by Tyler Durden 29 Nov '02

29 Nov '02

Yeah, the paper originates from NYC, called Shi Chie Re Bau (in Pin Yin, I believe). This translates (roughly) "World Journal". The article got thrown out, otherwise I'd attempt a translation. >From: Jim Choate <ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com> >To: <cypherpunks(a)einstein.ssz.com> >Subject: Anyone heard about the Berkeley college student? >Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:39:17 -0600 (CST) > >On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote: > > > In the Chinese papers over the last few days they've been reporting an > > incident that happened to a Chinese UC Berkeley college student, who was > > using her cell phone to discuss playing some sort of videogame. The > > videogame involves placing "explosives" in various places in the game. > > > > Apparently, whithin minutes after completing the call, police (or other) > > officers showed up at her room and brought her in for questioning. She > > apparently brought the officers over to the friend's house to show them >the > > videogame, "proving" that she was indeed talking about a videogame. > > > > Has anyone heard of this in the "regular" (ie, non-Chinese) press? The > > Chinese folks are of course up in arms about the apparent "profiling" >this > > would imply, apparently ignoring the deeper implications. (For instance, >did > > they actually get a wire tap for this monitoring? If so, why? If not, > > well...) > >Almost as interesting as the two people they've apparently executed for >posting web pages. > >Do you know which Chinese papers or even which city? Doesn't seem like >something they'd put in the internal press at all. > >I'll see what I can find out... > > > -- > ____________________________________________________________________ > > We don't see things as they are, ravage(a)ssz.com > we see them as we are. www.ssz.com > jchoate(a)open-forge.org > Anais Nin www.open-forge.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

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RE: stego building
by Lucky Green 29 Nov '02

29 Nov '02

Anonymous wrote quoting Lucky: > >A reasonable guess, but wrong. The building is a computing and > > >processing center for Bank of America. That's where your checks go > >after > > >you deposit them at the bank. > > > > > >The CO for this area is a few blocks away on Mc Coppin. The brick > > >building with the Pac Bell logo on it. You can see the frame through > >the > > >windows. Yes, this CO has been around for long enough to > have windows. > > Both wrong. BA building is accross the mentioned one (accross > 11th) and clearly marked. There are two BofA buildings on either side of 11th Street. One is housing a BofA branch with numerous ATMs outside. That building is indeed clearly marked as a BofA building. But that's not the building in question. The building in question is the one across 11th, which has its building entrance on Market next to a ground-level convenience store. While the ground level of that building houses stores, the remainder of the building is occupied by BofA's processing center. > The CO is metal-plated pacbel building on Folsom and 2nd. Well, of course there is more than one CO in San Francisco. The CO closed to the "mystery" building is the CO on Mc Coppin. As I pointed out in my original email, you can see the frame through the windows. FYI, Mc Coppin is *a lot* closer to 11th & Market than is 2nd and Folsom. --Lucky

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FBI 'Nets' Cop-Killer Suspect
by Eugen Leitl 28 Nov '02

28 Nov '02

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,56616,00.html?tw=wn_ascii FBI 'Nets' Cop-Killer Suspect By Associated Press Page 1 of 1 08:15 AM Nov. 27, 2002 PT CONCORD, New Hampshire -- A fugitive suspected of killing a California police officer in a crusade against police brutality has been captured after confessing to the murder in postings to an alternative news media website. Andrew McCrae, 23, walked out of a hotel room Tuesday after several hours of negotiations. He is charged with killing officer David Mobilio in Red Bluff, California, on Nov. 19. Shortly before he gave up, authorities granted McCrae's request to talk to a Concord Monitor reporter who was in the lobby. Reporter Sarah Vos said the first thing McCrae told her in a phone conversation was, "I killed a police officer in Red Bluff, California, in an effort to draw attention to police brutality." Police believe it was McCrae who confessed to the murder on a San Francisco website. In one of two letters posted on the site Monday by a man identifying himself as McCrae, the writer claims he shot and killed the officer to protest "police-state tactics" and corporate irresponsibility. The writer claimed he is immune from prosecution because he incorporated himself as a protest against corporations who "murder thousands of people each year." Mobilio, 31, was shot once in the head as he refueled his cruiser. He was the first officer ever killed in the line of duty in Red Bluff, a city of 13,500 near Sacramento. Some 2,500 people, including Gov. Gray Davis, attended a memorial Tuesday afternoon. Prosecutor Scott Murray called it "an ambush, an execution of a police officer ... to effectuate (McCrae's) political agenda." Vos, who covers crime for the newspaper, said McCrae wanted her to read a copy of a "Declaration of Renewed Independence" he said he had written. "I tell him I want to read it. He asks, 'How do I give it to you?' I say, 'You have to come out' and basically the conversation ends there." Authorities had told her they didn't want her to get McCrae excited because they feared he was suicidal. They also told her not to ask questions and try to lure him out. "Someone else was listening in and someone else was passing me notes," she said. Agents and police officers told Vos she had done a good job. "It feels weird, to be honest," she said. "That's not my job. My job is to report the news." McCrae was ordered held without bail after saying nothing during his arraignment by video hookup from the Merrimack County Jail. He had a bandage on his head and a blanket draped over his bare shoulders during the hearing. Police said there had been a dispute over jail clothing, but did not explain the bandage. Defense attorney Mark Sisti said McCrae had been injured, but gave no details.

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What Will AOL And MSN Tell Uncle Sam?
by Steve Schear 27 Nov '02

27 Nov '02

Business In The Beltway What Will AOL And MSN Tell Uncle Sam? Matthew Swibel, 11.27.02, 9:05 AM ET WASHINGTON - When he signed the Homeland Security bill on Monday, President George W. Bush effectively drafted corporate America to serve in the war against terrorism--with Internet service providers among those on the front line. The new law makes it easier for AOL Time Warner, Comcast, Microsoft's MSN unit, United Online and the rest of the nation's 3,000 Internet service providers to volunteer subscriber information to government officials without worrying about customer lawsuits. Under the new law, they can release the contents of customers' communications to law enforcement without a court order and without fear of a suit if they have a "good-faith" belief that an emergency warrants it. Before, they had to have a "reasonable" belief--a higher legal standard--that release was warranted. http://www.forbes.com/2002/11/27/cz_ms_1127beltway.html "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty " --- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
by Ken Hirsch 27 Nov '02

27 Nov '02

Jim Choate writes: > > It's not I who is doing the misreading. I sent this along because I don't > know -your- level, which considering your understanding of > 'completeness'... Peter Fairbrother has said nothing inaccurate about completeness, whereas your statements about completeness having to do with the ability to write statements is nonsense.

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RE: Is the minder CDR down?
by Trei, Peter 27 Nov '02

27 Nov '02

> Igor Chudov[SMTP:ichudov@Algebra.Com] wrote: > > > my cdr node algebra.com is up. It is perhaps the most aggressive node as > far as antispam measures go. It uses a lot of filters, some homemade, > some based on SpamAssassin (as of several days ago). It also refuses > all mail from China, Korea and a couple of other spam friendly countries. > > It also does not carry any traffic that originates from ssz.com. > > I used to be a lot more tolerant of spam before, but not any more. > > igor > Thanks, but no thanks. I picked minder because it does not filter. minder seems to be back up now. Peter > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 10:32:43AM -0800, Eric Murray wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 27, 2002 at 09:47:20AM -0500, Trei, Peter wrote: > > > I'm subscribed thru minder, and have had no > > > cypherpunks mail for nearly 24 hours. I can > > > see that there is more recent traffic on the > > > web archive. > > > > The last mail I got from them here was yesterday morning. But their > > majordomo did answer a ping this morning, so their server was up and > > sending and receiving at least some mail them. > > > > > > Eric

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