- cypherpunks-legacy - lists.cpunks.org

Re: National ID cards are just the driver's licenses on the Information
by jamiel＠sybase.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:38 PM 07/14/94 -0400, Dave Banisar wrote: >On Thu, 14 Jul 1994, Stephen D. Williams wrote: >> Do they realize how difficult it will be to get all the rural people, >> little old ladies, etc. to go along with this? >> > >Assuming that this becomes mandatory for all transactions that involve the >govt, most little old ladies would have to go along if they wanted their >medicare and social security checks. I dont see a huge liklihood of >most people wanting to give up those (or even being able to afford to). This conversation is beginning to remind me of parts of _The Illuminati_. Great paranoid fantasy of a book. Kept me enrapt for *hours*. >Dave -j -- "Blah Blah Blah" ___________________________________________________________________ Jamie Lawrence <jamiel(a)sybase.com>

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Re: ID card from hell
by kentborg＠world.std.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

frissell(a)panix.com writes: >"You can buy heroin in maximum security prisons." What a bizarre world! I have no interest in buying heroin and don't expect to go to prison anytime soon, yet this is somehow the nicest realization I have had in a long time. Thank you, Duncan. -kb, the Kent who insists upon having hope -- Kent Borg +1 (617) 776-6899 kentborg(a)world.std.com kentborg(a)aol.com Proud to claim 32:00 hours of TV viewing so far in 1994!

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Where do Extropians live?
by D.C. Williams 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'd appreciate a pointer to the extropians-request address (email or post at your discretion). TIA. =D.C. Williams dcwill(a)ee.unr.edu

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Re: Key length security (calculations!)
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:28 AM 7/15/94 EDT, solman(a)MIT.EDU wrote: >The bottom line is that NSA has demonstrated that they can outperform >academia without public reviews of their method (LEAFs aside for the >moment [government agencies are after all required to do several stupid >things each year]) > That is, they were able to out-perform the private sector when there was no economic value in cryptography so no one (save them) had any incentive to practice it. Since crypto gained enormous economic value (for compression and general bit manipulation as well as system security) they are unlikely to be able to keep up. Note the Market vs the Feds in electronics. They tend to buy most of their stuff from us these days. DCF

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Re: National ID cards are just the driver's licenses on the Information
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:00 PM 7/14/94 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >The following is worth mentioning: market forces will eventually >destroy virtually all controls. However, as the Soviet Union showed, >millions of people can be made miserable or killed in the meanwhile. >Perry > Actually, in the G-7 countries, the rulers are in a more exposed and vulnerable position than the ruled. They are juicy opposition targets, while we can slip (and SLIP) through the cracks. They can't. They must by their nature be exposed. DCF "The Market *is* the river." -- New Taoism for a New Age

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RE: ACAPULCO H.E.A.T.
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Thinking about card games & privacy/technology issues (eliminating el Fabuloso for a minute): It would be interesting to see TV shows with real-life crypto scenarios, demonstrating the advantages of using it and how it prevents the bad guys ("them") from intruding upon the free movement, the private property, etc. of the hero-winners. "It's just me and my code (and my public key. . . . and my pc....and my laser gun) against the world, winning against the odds....." But it probably wouldn't be as interesting as an exotic melange of Iran/Iraquis, renegade biologists, casinos, blackjack, etc. (not to mention bikinis). Blanc

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Re: ID card from hell
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Three messages from Tim May concatenated: >Many of Duncan's refutations boil down to "What about tourists?" >The answer for the Feds is simple: temporary ID cards for tourists. >3. The card acts essentially like the one citizen-units would receive, >perhaps not fully authorizing certain things. > >4. Employers, even for casual work, would be required to check these >cards, > >Electronic "point of sale" terminals, similar to cash machines, could >make this "painless." Even if cash is not outlawed--a different, and >even more controversial topic--such "work permits" could be enforced >in various way. >I basically agree with Duncan's noble sentiments. I just don't think >it likely that the "What about the tourists?" argument will stop the >national ID juggernaut once it begins to move. >Perry makes my point well. That some people will be able to skirt the >system, or that the system will ultimately be unenforceable, does not >lessen my concerns. >Anyway, I see the imposition of internal passports--with a name chosen >for easiest acceptance, probably something like "Social Benefits >Card"--as very likely and not easily avoided. Just the tying of such >cards to driving would be devastatingly effective. As a reader of utopian & dystopian literature since the 1950's (remember, the Land of Oz was a utopian Socialist State), I was always hung up on control technology and the possibilities of the State getting carried away. Since I have been involved with computers and Cypherpunks my outlook has reversed. Let's assume for purposes of argument that the Feds have both the will and the money to impose tight financial and regulatory controls on American society. I will even assume that *we* don't exist and there is no high-tech opposition. Let's further assume that they rope in their NAFTA and G-7 (Gang of 7 Major Industrialized Countries - US, Canada, Japan, England, France, Germany, and Italy) partners in some sort of control regime to accomplish God knows what. I guess their psychology is something along the lines of Houseman: But no they will not, They must still Bend their neighbor to their Will And make me dance as *they* desire With jail and gallows and Hellfire. The "Coercive Metaphor" as I like to call it fits in well with Klinton's Bismarckian orientation. Note his lovefest with Helmut a few days ago. He likes the German model of labor markets (where *all* jobs require a certificate, where working during your holiday is a federal crime) and medical care. Where everything is either mandatory or prohibited. Opposed to this model is the Anglo Saxon model of individual rights. (X.25 vs TCP/IP to you networking types.) Here's the problem for Control Freaks: even if they get everything they want it does them no good. So they get their systems in place and they start spitting out data. What do they do with the data? You run checks on something the size of the G-7 economy, and you get tons of hits showing anomalies. You can't deal with all of them so you tighten your parameters until you cover the (small) part of the deviate population that you have the resources to do anything about. Oh, you can employ all sorts of AI programs to "catch" deviates and you can automate the punishment systems to deprive the deviants of "benefits" and permissions. We see this today with the automatic driver's license suspensions for a host of offenses." But cutting people off from "benefits" just gives them the incentive to *work* for a living and they come out of it stronger than ever with no ties to the government. Until you deploy killer robots to snuff deviates you can't make inroads into deviance purely by the application of force. The Commies tried. Slick Willie only has the balls to snuff a few Branch Davidians and Retail Pharmaceutical Salesmen. "Wet Work" is expensive. Our prisons are likewise. In New York City these days the big crusade is against unlicensed drivers running over kids. (Apparently, New Yorkers prefer their families to be decimated by *licensed* drivers.) The State automatically issues suspensions and people keep driving. The record is several hundred suspensions. Note if you look around that even though there are more control attempts by the State, things are less and less under control. Compliance is *not* increasing. Because direct application of force is difficult and expensive, it is rare. What Control Freaks need is *voluntary* obedience. But that is based on respect for powerful institutions (which is falling). We are primates and try to get along with our "tribe." In the past our "tribe" was village, then local area, then nation state. Today, technology has broken things up so that we can form many different sorts of "tribes." If we obey the mores of our "tribe" it is increasingly unlikely that that "tribe will correspond to the geographical nation state. I obey the mores of my *tribe* -- libertarian net dwellers. Others are members of other "tribes." We will collectively tend not to obey our nation states and their power will therefore decline. It is perfectly possible to have a rich full life even though you disobey your nation state. You need not even be an outcast any longer. There are *other* communities in which you can find full acceptance and support *without* having to move. I'm sure there will be much more to say later but I've run down... >And everyone go out and read or reread Brunner's "The Shockwave >Rider." Also Harry Harrison's "Stainless Steel Rat" series. Not for the technology but for the philosophy. DCF "Nineteen Eighty-Four Knocking at your door Will you let it come Will you let it run Your life." --- Awaiting proper definition of Mime sound file standards.

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Re: Leaving the Country
by analyst＠Onramp.NET 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>FYI - the states with no (general) tax on wages are: > >New Hampshire* >Florida >Texas >Tennesee >South Dakota >Wyoming >Nevada >Washington >Alaska* > >*No (general) sales tax either. How do they do it -- Magic. *New Hampshire--alcohol sales (state run liquor stores), anything else? *Alaska--lots of oil. -- Benjamin McLemore analyst(a)onramp.net

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Factoring
by L. Todd Masco 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'm confused on a point, and I hope someone will clarify. Factoring keeps being described as a 2^(n/2) problem, yet AFAIK (I wrote the code to do it the other morning before breakfast), it's doable in linear (O(n)) time. What gives? (The algorithm I'm thinking of is: /* Algorithm: To factor the number n, start with n boxes, each with one "marble." Remove last box, put it's marble in box #1. If all boxes have the same number of marbles, the number is factored. If not, remove last box. Put marble in box #2. Compare. Etc. possible optimizations: div by each prime l for a quicker starting point. (2,3...) */ factor(int target) { int place = target; int smallest = 0; int load = 1; while (place>1) { place--; /* N-1 boxes. */ smallest+=load; /* Next box in line gets the marble */ if (place <= smallest ) { load++; if (place == smallest) printf(" Factor: %d by %d\n",place,load); smallest = smallest-place; } } } -- L. Todd Masco | Bibliobytes books on computer, on any UNIX host with e-mail cactus(a)bb.com | "Information wants to be free, but authors want to be paid."

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Re: Leaving the Country
by smb＠research.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

FYI - the states with no (general) tax on wages are: New Hampshire* Florida Texas Tennesee South Dakota Wyoming Nevada Washington Alaska* *No (general) sales tax either. How do they do it -- Magic. Magic? TANSTAAFL. Alaska has oil money (or has had it), and New Hampshire provides (relatively speaking) fewer services to its citizens, according to folks I know who have lived there. Knowing the politics of much of this list, that's probably considered a Good Thing by many; I disagree, but I won't clutter the list with (even more) politics. But if you're thinking of moving anywhere, find out what you *aren't* getting for your money, and see if it's worth it.

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