July 2018 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: PeerPoint (building-a-distributed-decentralized-internet@googlegroups.com)
by Poor Richard 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

With all due respect, Patrick and others turned this thread in an off-topic direction. Getting back to the original topic, I would like to know if there is (or is not) still any interest in this group in discussing p2p application architecture. Either way, I encourage all Next Net group members to discuss and to mention in your blogs, presentations, training, etc. the difference between real p2p application software (still fairly uncommon and under-developed) and the useful but corporate-controlled client-server applications like Google Docs and Google Groups. Most open source/free software also still uses a client-server architecture. Until end-users learn the difference between client-server and p2p software architecture it will be hard to pull the software designers and developers further in the p2p direction. "Peer-to-peer (abbreviated to P2P) refers to a computer network in which each computer in the network can act as a client or server for the other computers in the network, allowing shared access to files and peripherals *without the need for a central server* [emphasis added]." (Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer What is less often understood is that the individual applications (such as email or shared document editing) must also have the p2p architecture built into each one. So far that is seldom the case. Somehow we must create greater awareness to drive greater demand for these kinds of p2p software products. BTW as far as I can tell, there is no online forum dedicated to the general topic of p2p application software architecture for free/open source software designers, developers, engineers, etc. Discussions of p2p architecture tend to be found mostly in the discussions of specific p2p networking projects like freenet and FreedomBox and they tend to apply to the lower-level network routing and file-sharing issues instead of the higher application software level for real-time, interactive collaboration. If anyone knows of a general p2p *application* architecture group or forum, please let me know. Thanks, PR On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:33:24 PM UTC-5, Poor Richard wrote: > > [image: Document] I've shared PeerPoint<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkAUpUxdfKGr_5Qio2SlZcnBu_sgnZWdoVTZuD_…> > * > * > > Next Net group members: I've shared a Google Doc called "PeerPoint" with the group. Members have edit permission but please follow the two simple procedures mentioned at the top of the document. > > > Click to open: > > - PeerPoint<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkAUpUxdfKGr_5Qio2SlZcnBu_sgnZWdoVTZuD_…> > > > Google Docs makes it easy to create, store and share online documents, > spreadsheets and presentations. > [image: Logo for Google Docs] <https://docs.google.com> > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Re: Public Key Infrastructure: An Artifact...
by None 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Lynn.Wheeler(a)firstdata.com wrote: > > the current SSL domain name infrastructure supposedly exists because of issues > with trusting the domain name infrastructure ... except the SSL domain name > certificate issuer has to trust the same (untrusted) domain name infrastructure > when issuing a certificate (i.e. the SSL domain name certificate is no better > than the authentication authority that the certificate authority has to rely on > as the final arbitrator of domain name ownership). > > one of the integrity issues with the domain name infrastructure ... is that > domain names have been hijacked ... once hijacked ... you can go to certificate > authority and get a certificate with that domain name (and the certificate > authority will check with the domain name system and confirm that the requester > owns the domain name). The difference is that a CA _also_ binds the certificate to a legal entity. When the fraud is discovered, the identity of the fraudster is, too. Cheers, Ben. -- http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html "There is no limit to what a man can do or how far he can go if he doesn't mind who gets the credit." - Robert Woodruff

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Re: [liberationtech] Targeted Tracking
by liberationtech＠lewman.us 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 06:39:26PM -0400, r.deibert(a)utoronto.ca wrote 1.3K bytes in 39 lines about: : The Information Warfare Monitor just posted a short security note on "Targeted Tracking", the link for which is here: : http://www.infowar-monitor.net/2011/07/targeted-tracking/ : : Our security analyst discovered some clever ways in which emails are being sent to targets presumably to collect vulnerability intelligence that can be used later on. Please pass along to Tibetan organizations that you may believe are recipients of this email. As the former CTO of an online marketing firm, this is called "getting to know your customer". The only thing suspicious in the email is the dyndns.org domain. Any real marketer would use 2o7.net or some other global tracking system, like google-analytics.com, to see who is hitting their page, and what characteristics each user presents. These systems automatically map the individual and their entire history to this single email. In fact, the more targetted you want your email campaign, the more it costs, on the order of US$0.001 per email sent (yes, that's less than one cent). I believe you when you say these techniques are also being used to target people. However, at the same time, they've been used for the past decade to gather intelligence about customers to better target ads and features about a product. I get emails from many organizations, non-profit and for-profit alike, that are loaded with tracking links, javascript, and other techniques to elucidate my browsing history, browser profile, etc. Some examples sitting in my inbox right now are from CPJ, ACLU, and CIMA. It seems simpler to me for an adversary to simply buy the needed data from an ad network rather than go through all of the trouble of spearfishing. -- Andrew pgp key: 0x74ED336B _______________________________________________ liberationtech mailing list liberationtech(a)lists.stanford.edu Should you need to change your subscription options, please go to: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech If you would like to receive a daily digest, click "yes" (once you click above) next to "would you like to receive list mail batched in a daily digest?" You will need the user name and password you receive from the list moderator in monthly reminders. Should you need immediate assistance, please contact the list moderator. Please don't forget to follow us on http://twitter.com/#!/Liberationtech ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Re: PeerPoint (building-a-distributed-decentralized-internet@googlegroups.com)
by Poor Richard 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

With all due respect, Patrick and others turned this thread in an off-topic direction. Getting back to the original topic, I would like to know if there is (or is not) still any interest in this group in discussing p2p application architecture. Either way, I encourage all Next Net group members to discuss and to mention in your blogs, presentations, training, etc. the difference between real p2p application software (still fairly uncommon and under-developed) and the useful but corporate-controlled client-server applications like Google Docs and Google Groups. Most open source/free software also still uses a client-server architecture. Until end-users learn the difference between client-server and p2p software architecture it will be hard to pull the software designers and developers further in the p2p direction. "Peer-to-peer (abbreviated to P2P) refers to a computer network in which each computer in the network can act as a client or server for the other computers in the network, allowing shared access to files and peripherals *without the need for a central server* [emphasis added]." (Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer-to-peer What is less often understood is that the individual applications (such as email or shared document editing) must also have the p2p architecture built into each one. So far that is seldom the case. Somehow we must create greater awareness to drive greater demand for these kinds of p2p software products. BTW as far as I can tell, there is no online forum dedicated to the general topic of p2p application software architecture for free/open source software designers, developers, engineers, etc. Discussions of p2p architecture tend to be found mostly in the discussions of specific p2p networking projects like freenet and FreedomBox and they tend to apply to the lower-level network routing and file-sharing issues instead of the higher application software level for real-time, interactive collaboration. If anyone knows of a general p2p *application* architecture group or forum, please let me know. Thanks, PR On Wednesday, June 6, 2012 9:33:24 PM UTC-5, Poor Richard wrote: > > [image: Document] I've shared PeerPoint<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkAUpUxdfKGr_5Qio2SlZcnBu_sgnZWdoVTZuD_…> > * > * > > Next Net group members: I've shared a Google Doc called "PeerPoint" with the group. Members have edit permission but please follow the two simple procedures mentioned at the top of the document. > > > Click to open: > > - PeerPoint<https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TkAUpUxdfKGr_5Qio2SlZcnBu_sgnZWdoVTZuD_…> > > > Google Docs makes it easy to create, store and share online documents, > spreadsheets and presentations. > [image: Logo for Google Docs] <https://docs.google.com> > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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Re: [liberationtech] best practices - roundup
by The Doctor 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/09/2012 03:03 PM, Lindsay Beck wrote: > Thanks for compiling these resources! Another great tool that is > perfect for traveling is TAILS, which stands for The Amnesiac > Incognito Live System ... For what it's worth, I was traveling OCONUS last week and was using TAILS v0.12.1 installed on a microSD card (the laptop in question was booted from a USB adapter). I'm very impressed with how well it works, and as a general purpose "I need to get stuff done in an untrustworthy environment" it did an excellent job. I've yet to write an article on the specifics because I'm still digging out at work, but when I do I'll get the link out there. - -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703] [ZS] Developer, Project Byzantium: http://project-byzantium.org/ PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Sing loud! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAlB3G9AACgkQO9j/K4B7F8GjiQCgliQdwzjS2GyU2hpk9Jp6GD80 YGMAoO1REt/EEWvjF+UST56XYTCjv0er =zM+i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password at: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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( shared ) vision for "distributed database using semantic linked-data structure", and current tool development
by Dante-Gabryell Monson 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

I feel like cross posting , making a connection between those two lists http://groups.google.com/group/global-survival http://groups.google.com/group/building-a-distributed-decentralized-internet sharing Poor Richard's post as context : https://groups.google.com/d/topic/building-a-distributed-decentralized-inte… including comments on https://www.facebook.com/groups/145538675490320/ and recent updates in relation to Netention prototypes : http://blog.automenta.com/2012/10/combining-netention-and-gss-into.html http://blog.automenta.com/2012/10/netention-semantic-editor-design-options.… ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Dante-Gabryell Monson <dante.monson(a)gmail.com> Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:44 AM Subject: Introducing Poor Richard to the list, and his vision for "distributed database using semantic linked-data structure" To: Poor Richard , global-survival(a)googlegroups.com Hi Poor Richard, I wish to introduce you to people on the global survival list , so that they can perhaps react and complete the approach currently taken. You can find more on http://automenta.com , including http://automenta.com/netention ( netention - did Seth coin it ? - stands for a combination of "Network" and "Attention" - code in development , released in a open / libre approach by Seth and other coders on this list , with some various Prototypes shared on http://blog.automenta.com/ ) And I wish to share with the list your following Facebook post and comments : * * *Poor Richard <https://www.facebook.com/po.richard>[image: posted to]P2P<https://www.facebook.com/groups/145538675490320/> * *I hope no one will mind if I indulge in a little visioneering here. I am imagining an information system of P2P practice and research. The P2P collaborative economy, free culture, and new commons movements are creating a lot of digital content. Most is in discursive and narrative form that is time consuming to read. Among this volume of content are case studies in a variety of formats (many very informal), business plans, proposals, and presumably many legal documents (charters, agreements, etc.). I am imagining a semantic ontology according to which the key ideas and data of this content could be parsed and tagged to form a distributed database using semantic linked-data structures. This would help transition the collective knowledge base of the research, activist, and social entrepreneurial communities into a machine-readable, semantically linked, searchable form. The P2P Foundation Wiki is an excellent searchable resource, and perhaps the semantic wiki extensions for the wiki engine could eventually be applied. "A semantic wiki is a wiki that has an underlying model of the knowledge described in its pages. Regular, or syntactic, wikis have structured text and untyped hyperlinks. Semantic wikis, on the other hand, provide the ability to capture or identify information about the data within pages, and the relationships between pages, in ways that can be queried or exported like a database."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Semantic_wiki<http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSema…> A fringe benefit of creating such data structures for existing content would be to provide common templates for future content creation and data collection.* *Semantic wiki - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia* en.wikipedia.org Asemantic wikiis awikithat has an underlyingmodel of the knowledgedescribed in its pages. Regular, or syntactic, wikis have structured text and untypedhyperlinks. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_wiki> "You should be able to easily select a view where all that information is included." "farther towards creating open linked-data structures" "I am focused on the ontology design first, but perhaps there are tools that cover both bases that I'm not aware of yet." "Poor Richard <https://www.facebook.com/po.richard> Another part of the "research information system" I am visioneering is pattern detection and recognition. An ontology gives us set of semantically charged patterns. Then what we need is a pattern language with which to parse existing content and match it with our ontology. I am thinking of something like the "regular expressions" used in the old unix text editors or in the Pearl and Awk programming languages I once used. http://encyclopedia.tfd.com/Regular+expressions " to which I replied : this is a vision we share. Programming work has been on its way. I invite you to have a look athttp://automenta.com/netention, and to join this list https://groups.google.com/group/global-survival I wish to share the following A phrase from Seth I wish to share in this context : *"I've explained to people that Netention is not just a product - but that it refers to the evolution of human language into new semantic and syntactical domains of higher expressiveness and effectiveness in programming reality itself, not just software. so anything that can help this goal ought to be part of the project, as long as it doesn't complexify it."* * * ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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[liberationtech] weev (@rabite) makes a Statement of Responsibility
by Petter Ericson 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Hi, I thought this was very well written and powerful, though I don't necessarily agree with absolutely everything. http://techcrunch.com/2013/01/21/ipad-hack-statement-of-responsibility/ iPad Hack Statement Of Responsibility ANDREW AUERNHEIMER Monday, January 21st, 2013 (Editorbs note: Andrew Auernheimer, also known by his pseudonym weev, is an American grey hat hacker and self-described Internet troll. Follow him on Twitter @rabite.) In June of 2010 there was an AT&T webserver on the open Internet. There was an API on this server, a URL with a number at the end. If you incremented this number, you saw the next iPad 3G user email address. I thought it was egregiously negligent for AT&T to be publishing a complete target list of iPad 3G owners, and I took a sample of the API output to a journalist at Gawker. I did this because I despised people I think are unjustly wealthy and wanted to embarass them. I thought this is the United States of America where we have the right to do basic arithmetic and query public webservers. I was convicted of two consecutive five-year felonies, and am now awaiting sentencing. I left the Aaron Swartz memorial tonight emotionally exhausted. Here is a guy who was beloved by many of my close friends, whose suffering and miseries I have shared in kind. Ibll never forget when the Secret Service started following me. My lover at the time and I treated it like a game, spending our days ditching surveillance in the best ways possible: speedboats, helicopters, club bouncers. Over time, this has become less and less of a game. It soon became clear that I could not be both an activist and a capitalist. I quit my six figure job at the time because the former was more important to me. Then one day, everything changed. FBI agents tried to frame me for terrorism in 2008. Twice. They ruined my career, my relationship, my life. Nobody believed that I could be a terrorist so now they try to libel me as an identity thief. Lawrence Lessig said of Aaronbs indictment that the prosecutor Ortiz was b either an idiot, or a liar.b I know this feeling all too well. One of my prosecutors, Michael Martinez, claimed that our querying a public webserver was criminal because b it isnbt like going to ESPN and checking your sports teambs scores.b The facts: AT&T admitted, at trial, that they b publishedb this data. Their words. Public-facing, programmatic accesses of APIs happen upwards of a trillion times per day. Twitter broke 13 billion on their API ages ago. This is something that happens more than the entire population of Earth, daily. The government has no problem with this up until you transform the output into something offensive to important people. People with b disruptiveb startups, this is your fair warning: They are coming for you next. The other one of my prosecutors, Zach Intrater, said that a comment I made about Goatse Security, my information security working group, starting a certification process to declare systems b goatse tightb was evidence of my intent to personally profit. For those not in on the joke: Goatse is an Internet meme referencing a man holding open his anus very widely. The mind reels. I canbt survive like this. I am happy to be hitting a prison cell soon. They ruined my business. The feds get approval of who I can work for or with: they rejected one company because the CEO had a social network profile with an occupation listed as b hacker.b They prohibit me from touching any computer that isnbt federally monitored. I do my best to slang Perl code on an Android device to comply with my bail conditions. It isnbt pretty. Ivy league educated and wealthy, Aaron dealt with his indictment so badly because he thought he was part of a special class of people that this didnbt happen to. I am from a rundown shack in Arkansas. I spent many years thinking people from families like his got better treatment than me. Now I realize the truth: The beast is so monstrous it will devour us all. None will be spared. So now I stare at a form that the government wants me to fill out before sentencing labelled b acceptance of responsibilityb and wonder what I can possibly fill in this slot. This letter is it. I accept my responsibility, and hope you do too, of dismantling this terrible empire so that this canbt happen to anyone. This is the difference between the prosecutors and FBI agents and I. They wish me utterly destroyed, and have been hounding me for years of my life. They have been surveilling me, by their own admission, since I was 15. You know what I wish for? A world where no man may abridge the liberty of another. Not me, not you, not the FBI, not federal prosecutors. I actually hope they have fulfilling lives, and come to realize the mistake of treating our Constitution like toilet paper. This is a country where if you express ideas that federal agents donbt like you, you will be beaten, imprisoned, or killed. I accept my responsibility for offending seditious thugs, liars and tyrants. I say this is the duty of all decent citizens left. God bless. Andrew Auernheimer (*Those who assert our right to access public web APIs can donate to the effort to overturn the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. More info at cfaadefensefund.com. - Andrew Auernheimer) -- Petter Ericson (pettter(a)acc.umu.se) Telecomix Sleeper Jellyfish -- Unsubscribe, change to digest, or change password at: https://mailman.stanford.edu/mailman/listinfo/liberationtech ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com http://postbiota.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE

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[linux-elitists] STANFORD LOCAL: Wednesday 19 November 2003: Microsoft will claim that Palladium is good for you, Richard Stallman asks your help in telling the truth
by Jay Sulzberger 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

<blockquote what="alert and request from Richard Stallman" suggestion="Please call Palladium by its right name, 'Palladium'. It is not a Next Generation Secure Computing Base." edit-level="one mail header line suppressed so that private addresses be not broadcast" more-information="http://www.nyfairuse.org/action/palladium" for-what-Microsoft-does-today-with-the-primitive-hard-DRM-in-Xbox="http://x box-linux.sourceforge.net/docs/remotedelete.html"> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 18:04:00 -0500 From: Richard Stallman <rms(a)gnu.org> Subject: Microsoft speech at Stanford where we need people to show up At this event tomorrow, Microsoft will try to present Palladium as a security measure. It would be useful if a few people who understand the issues of treacherous computing and security could show up there and point out flaws in that argument meant to justify Palladium. Flaws could include (1) that in practice this "solution" wouldn't solve the whole problem unless users' usage is grievously limited, and (2) you could do as much for security in other ways that won't attack the user's freedom.

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Credentica Web site is up
by Stefan Brands 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Dear All, This e-mail is to inform you that our corporate Web site at http://www.credentica.com is up. We welcome any suggestions for improvement, and encourage you to establish links to our home-page from your blogs, news postings, and Web sites! Best regards, Stefan Brands Credentica 740 Notre Dame W, #1500 Montreal, QC Canada H3C 3X6 Tel: +1 (514) 866.6000 PS Pages that may be of particular interest: - http://www.credentica.com/about.php (overview of what we do and how we differ) - http://www.credentica.com/solutions.php & submenus (explanations of product benefits in key markets) - http://www.credentica.com/the_mit_pressbook.php (the entire MIT Press book available for free download) White papers and product data sheets are in preparation and will be posted in the next couple of months. PPS The site is best viewed with a Javascript-enabled browser, and has been tested only with leading browsers. --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Spies Among Us
by Richard Forno 06 Jul '18

06 Jul '18

Spies Among Us Despite a troubled history, police across the nation are keeping tabs on ordinary Americans By David E. Kaplan 5/8/06 In the Atlanta suburbs of DeKalb County, local officials wasted no time after the 9/11 attacks. The second-most-populous county in Georgia, the area is home to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the FBI's regional headquarters, and other potential terrorist targets. Within weeks of the attacks, officials there boasted that they had set up the nation's first local department of homeland security. Dozens of other communities followed, and, like them, DeKalb County put in for--and got--a series of generous federal counterterrorism grants. The county received nearly $12 million from Washington, using it to set up, among other things, a police intelligence unit. The outfit stumbled in 2002, when two of its agents were assigned to follow around the county executive. Their job: to determine whether he was being tailed--not by al Qaeda but by a district attorney investigator looking into alleged misspending. A year later, one of its plainclothes agents was seen photographing a handful of vegan activists handing out antimeat leaflets in front of a HoneyBaked Ham store. Police arrested two of the vegans and demanded that they turn over notes, on which they'd written the license-plate number of an undercover car, according to the American Civil Liberties Union, which is now suing the county. An Atlanta Journal-Constitution editorial neatly summed up the incident: "So now we know: Glazed hams are safe in DeKalb County." Glazed hams aren't the only items that America's local cops are protecting from dubious threats. U.S. News has identified nearly a dozen cases in which city and county police, in the name of homeland security, have surveilled or harassed animal-rights and antiwar protesters, union activists, and even library patrons surfing the Web. Unlike with Washington's warrantless domestic surveillance program, little attention has been focused on the role of state and local authorities in the war on terrorism. A U.S.News inquiry found that federal officials have funneled hundreds of millions of dollars into once discredited state and local police intelligence operations. Millions more have gone into building up regional law enforcement databases to unprecedented levels. In dozens of interviews, officials across the nation have stressed that the enhanced intelligence work is vital to the nation's security, but even its biggest boosters worry about a lack of training and standards. "This is going to be the challenge," says Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton, "to ensure that while getting bin Laden we don't transgress over the law. We've been burned so badly in the past--we can't do that again." < snip > http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060508/8homeland.htm ------------------------------------- You are subscribed as eugen(a)leitl.org To manage your subscription, go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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