July 2018 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: [s-t] privacy and caution digest #2
by David M Chess 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

Michael Turyn: "whatever we do which might displease the government or a real or fictive person with power is almost certainly being done at the same time by a lot of other people." That's only a statistical comfort, of course. But then most comfort probably is. (Who designed this place, anyway?) Andrew A. Gill: >> if anyone knows of a good combined worldview that >> satisfies both, I'd love to hear about it. > s/hear about it/torture you until you let me patent it/ Never! I patent things only in self-defense. *8) I'd prefer you shouted it from the rooftops, so no one could patent it... Andy Latto: "Instead, your HTML repair and rendering engine should be on top, and the security layer should be underneath. When the rendering engine determines that the HTML, as repaired, instructs it to delete a file, it calls delete-a-file-if-security-permits, and *then* the security layer gets involved, deciding whether that particular file system operation (or network operation, or whatever) should be permitted at that time." That would be ideal. Unfortunately on many boxes it's not practical to slip the security layer in under the rendering layer, because the rendering layer is in the operating system (and the security layer is either above that for practical reasons, or in a separate box entirely). But when you can do it, it's great. How many operating systems (not counting the JVM as an operating system) have access controls based on the network address / email address / PGP credentials of the (effective) originator of the request? There are a few places where security models do allow for that. The JVM is one (to an extent). The Execution Control Lists in Lotus Notes are another (you can tell Notes who you trust to execute what classes of function, and then email from untrusted people that contains scripts to format your hard disk won't work), and I think the signed macros in recent (after I stopped paying close attention) versions of Microsoft Office are another. Things like ZoneAlarm and Norton Whatever do a sideways version of this, by granting network access using the identity of the program that's asking as the effective 'identity' (this has some interesting properties). It'd be cool (if maybe expensive performance-wise?) if some widespread OS had a sufficiently rich notion of requestor identity (beyond "people with accounts on this box") to do it down at the filesystem / memory-access / etc level. Some Linux version? (All Unix machines everywhere, using a facility that I am temporarily ignorant of? BeOS?) DC -----------------------------------------------------------

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RE: Six Step IE Remote Compromise Cache Attack
by Drew Copley 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

> -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Franz [mailto:snowhare@nihongo.org] > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:50 PM > To: Thor Larholm > Cc: Liu Die Yu; bugtraq(a)securityfocus.com > Subject: RE: Six Step IE Remote Compromise Cache Attack > > > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Thor Larholm wrote: > > > This post raises an interesting question. Is our goal to find new > > vulnerabilities and attack vectors to help secure users and > critical > > infrastructures, or is our goal to ease exploitation of existing > > vulnerabilities? > > > > There are no new vulnerabilities or techniques highlighted in this > > attack (which is what it is), just a combination of several already > > known vulnerabilities. This is not a proof-of-concept designed to > > highlight how a particular vulnerability works, but an exploit > > designed specifically to compromise your machine. All a malicious > > viruswriter has to do is exchange the EXE file. > > > > Believe me, I am all in for full disclosure and detailing > every aspect > > of a vulnerability to prevent future occurances of similar threats, > > but I don't particularly think that we should actively be trying to > > help malicious persons. > > I have mixed emotions about this. On one side - why put > millions of systems at risk to script kiddies? On the other > side, as noted by the poster, one of these vulnerabilities > has been known for more than _TWO YEARS_. Surely far more > than enough time for MS to have actually _fixed_ the problem > if they intended to. MS seems (at least in some cases) to > ignore security problems until someone publically 'holds > their feet to the fire' over them. I suspect this happens > when the problem 'runs deep' in their code and will require > more than fixing a boundary limit check and recompiling. Very well said. I would note that I believe their strategy for securing code wants to be inline with their strategy for pushing their products. The company is full of strategies, and this is good. But, the primary stategy needs to be to "put security first". Especially, post 9/11. A few others things... As with all security issues, the researcher is not bound to tell anyone about them. Liu Die Yu could have just shared this with his friends, and we all could have kept these to do as we will. Kind of like keeping your own personal nuclear weapon. Who knows? Maybe there will be a rainy day. My question then, to everybody, is "would you have preferred that he keep this to himself and his friends, or would you have preferred for him to have disclosed this, with a workaround?" Because Liu Die Yu has worked with Microsoft (China) in the past, and he has, unfortunately, found that he can not trust them. Maybe he talked to the wrong person. Who knows? But, we can all see plainly that Microsoft was without excuse to ignore these problems all of these years. What was the thinking behind that? Was somebody's job saved so this could happen? Was somebody able to make a more successful career move because of this? Are researhers like Liu Die Yu too intimidating to deal with, too challenging, too successful? What would have happened if someone else put these flaws together and discovered they could make them work? What would have been the case in that situation? Why did Microsoft ignore the advice of all these researchers and not do something about these issues? Why did they think they could go it alone in this way? The advice was free for them. They had almost two years to fix this, should Liu Die Yu even conceivably be forced to wait another three to six months from a company that has shown him bad dealings in the past? This is using the system at its' best. It is an example of the best kind of system. There is no bureaucracy, there is no limitation, no glass ceilings, no prejudice... Anyone who is capable, come, find bugs. Microsoft is putting out millions of dollars in bounties for worm writers while people like Liu Die Yu are just trying to get into the security field, so they can do what they are best at. What they love to do. It isn't like he is incapable of doing this. He has found swarms of bugs since starting to look for them. Bounties work. We know they do. But, let's close the gap. Let's make sure that tomorrow's bugs are not found outside of the Full Disclosure community. Why would anybody be making these kinds of shortcuts? What good is AV or Firewalls or anything if your OS let's the attacker through? We worry about script kiddies trying to figure out what Liu Die Yu did here to make their own version? We should be worrying about rogue nations and criminal organizations creating teams of bug finders so they can penetrate any system they want to. The computers themselves are worthless, compared to human lives, but the information within them are invaluable. Blueprints. Military strategies. Political strategies. Security strategies. Governmental secrets. Corporate secrets. Identities. Weaknesses. I have to wonder when people when begin to figure out that security bugs mean... security holes mean: keys to the application, and generally, keys to the system. We can ponder all we want about the NSA having a backdoor, or merely Microsoft having a backdoor... But anytime someone finds a security hole like this, they have a backdoor. If you want, ask the researcher to please alert the vendor. Be rude about it, whatever. But, understand that if they were bad or interested in doing evil... They would not report it to the world. They would use it. Lastly, just to be fair. Most researchers that find bugs in Microsoft's products do so at least partly because everyone uses their software. Microsoft actually has a code auditing team, they actually have made moves towards securing their software. Most companies have not done this. Their code is not even looked at. If the case were anything different, Liu Die Yu would just put his resume on monster or dice, and he wouldn't be speaking to us right now. He would be working in the field he loves. Drew Copley Research Engineer, eEye Digital Security Fun quote for the day: "Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadown knows!" > > -- > Benjamin Franz > > Gauss's law is always true, but it is not always useful. > -- David J. Griffiths, "Introduction to Electrodynamics" > > > ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

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Phil Zimmerman and voice encryption; a Skype problem?
by Steven M. Bellovin 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

There's an article in today's NY Times (for subscribers, it's at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/22/technology/22privacy.html?_r=1&oref=slogin ) on whether Phil Zimmerman's Zfone -- an encrypted VoIP package -- will invite government scrutiny. There doesn't seem to be any imminent threat in the U.S.; the one concrete example mentioned -- the British plan to give police the power to compel individuals to disclose keys -- doesn't threaten Zfone, because it uses Diffie-Hellman for (among other things) perfect forward secrecy and doesn't even have any long-term keys. (See draft-zimmermann-avt-zrtp-01.txt for protocol details.) The fascinating thing, though, was this sentence near the end of the article: But at a conference last week in Cyprus, German officials said they had technology for intercepting and decrypting Skype phone calls, according to Anthony M. Rutkowski, vice president for regulatory affairs and standards for VeriSign, a company that offers security for Internet and phone operations. The Berson report says that Skype uses AES-256. NSA rates that as suitable for Top Secret traffic, so it's presumably not the cipher. Berson analyzed a number of other possible attack scenarios; the only one that seems to be possible is an active attack plus forged certificates. If Berson's analysis was correct -- and we all know how hard it is to verify cryptographic protocols -- that leaves open the possibility of a protocol change that implemented some sort of Clipper-like functionality. A silent change like that would be *very* ominous. --Steven M. Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a> http://leitl.org ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820 http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of signature.asc]

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The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

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The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

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The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

1 0

The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

1 0

The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

1 0

The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

1 0

The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 05 Jul '18

05 Jul '18

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/livin…

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