February 2007 - cypherpunks-legacy

WORK.HoT JOBS USA.$6100 month.
by Tyson Gagnon 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

1 0

[Clips] How to Interrogate Terrorists
by R.A. Hettinga 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

--- begin forwarded text Delivered-To: rah(a)shipwright.com Delivered-To: clips(a)philodox.com Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 18:39:58 -0500 To: Philodox Clips List <clips(a)philodox.com> From: "R.A. Hettinga" <rah(a)shipwright.com> Subject: [Clips] How to Interrogate Terrorists Reply-To: clips-chat(a)philodox.com Sender: clips-bounces(a)philodox.com <http://www.city-journal.org/printable.php?id=1727> City Journal How to Interrogate Terrorists Don't believe the charges. American troops treat terrorists with Geneva-convention politeness-perhaps too much so. Heather Mac Donald Winter 2005 It didn't take long for interrogators in the war on terror to realize that their part was not going according to script. Pentagon doctrine, honed over decades of cold-war planning, held that 95 percent of prisoners would break upon straightforward questioning. Interrogators in Afghanistan, and later in Cuba and Iraq, found just the opposite: virtually none of the terror detainees was giving up information-not in response to direct questioning, and not in response to army-approved psychological gambits for prisoners of war. Debate erupted in detention centers across the globe about how to get detainees to talk. Were "stress techniques"-such as isolation or sleep deprivation to decrease a detainee's resistance to questioning-acceptable? Before the discussion concluded, however, the photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison appeared. Though they showed the sadism of a prison out of control, they showed nothing about interrogation. Nevertheless, Bush-administration critics seized on the scandal as proof that prisoner "torture" had become routine. A master narrative-call it the "torture narrative"-sprang up: the government's 2002 decision to deny Geneva-convention status to al-Qaida fighters, it held, "led directly to the abuse of detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq," to quote the Washington Post. In particular, torturous interrogation methods, developed at Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan in illegal disregard of Geneva protections, migrated to Abu Ghraib and were manifest in the abuse photos. This story's success depends on the reader's remaining ignorant of the actual interrogation techniques promulgated in the war on terror. Not only were they light years from real torture and hedged around with bureaucratic safeguards, but they had nothing to do with the Abu Ghraib anarchy. Moreover, the decision on the Geneva conventions was irrelevant to interrogation practices in Iraq. No matter. The Pentagon's reaction to the scandal was swift and sweeping. It stripped interrogators not just of stress options but of traditional techniques long regarded as uncontroversial as well. Red tape now entangles the interrogation process, and detainees know that their adversaries' hands are tied. The need for rethinking interrogation doctrine in the war on terror will not go away, however. The Islamist enemy is unlike any the military has encountered in the past. If current wisdom on the rules of war prohibits making any distinction between a terrorist and a lawful combatant, then that orthodoxy needs to change. The interrogation debate first broke out on the frigid plains of Afghanistan. Marines and other special forces would dump planeloads of al-Qaida and Taliban prisoners into a ramshackle detention facility outside the Kandahar airport; waiting interrogators were then supposed to extract information to be fed immediately back into the battlefield-whether a particular mountain pass was booby-trapped, say, or where an arms cache lay. That "tactical" debriefing accomplished, the Kandahar interrogation crew would determine which prisoners were significant enough to be shipped on to the Guantanamo naval base in Cuba for high-level interrogation. Army doctrine gives interrogators 16 "approaches" to induce prisoners of war to divulge critical information. Sporting names like "Pride and Ego Down" and "Fear Up Harsh," these approaches aim to exploit a detainee's self-love, allegiance to or resentment of comrades, or sense of futility. Applied in the right combination, they will work on nearly everyone, the intelligence soldiers had learned in their training. But the Kandahar prisoners were not playing by the army rule book. They divulged nothing. "Prisoners overcame the [traditional] model almost effortlessly," writes Chris Mackey in The Interrogators, his gripping account of his interrogation service in Afghanistan. The prisoners confounded their captors "not with clever cover stories but with simple refusal to cooperate. They offered lame stories, pretended not to remember even the most basic of details, and then waited for consequences that never really came." Some of the al-Qaida fighters had received resistance training, which taught that Americans were strictly limited in how they could question prisoners. Failure to cooperate, the al-Qaida manuals revealed, carried no penalties and certainly no risk of torture-a sign, gloated the manuals, of American weakness. Even if a prisoner had not previously studied American detention policies before arriving at Kandahar, he soon figured them out. "It became very clear very early on to the detainees that the Americans were just going to have them sit there," recalls interrogator Joe Martin (a pseudonym). "They realized: 'The Americans will give us our Holy Book, they'll draw lines on the floor showing us where to pray, we'll get three meals a day with fresh fruit, do Jazzercise with the guards, . . . we can wait them out.' " Even more challenging was that these detainees bore little resemblance to traditional prisoners of war. The army's interrogation manual presumed adversaries who were essentially the mirror image of their captors, motivated by emotions that all soldiers share. A senior intelligence official who debriefed prisoners in the 1989 U.S. operation in Panama contrasts the battlefield then and now: "There were no martyrs down there, believe me," he chuckles. "The Panamanian forces were more understandable people for us. Interrogation was pretty straightforward: 'Love of Family' [an army-manual approach, promising, say, contact with wife or children in exchange for cooperation] or, 'Here's how you get out of here as fast as you can.' " "Love of family" often had little purchase among the terrorists, however-as did love of life. "The jihadists would tell you, 'I've divorced this life, I don't care about my family,' " recalls an interrogator at Guantanamo. "You couldn't shame them." The fierce hatred that the captives bore their captors heightened their resistance. The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan reported in January 2002 that prisoners in Kandahar would "shout epithets at their captors, including threats against the female relatives of the soldiers guarding them, knee marines in the groin, and say that they will escape and kill 'more Americans and Jews.' " Such animosity continued in Guantanamo. Battlefield commanders in Afghanistan and intelligence officials in Washington kept pressing for information, however. The frustrated interrogators constantly discussed how to get it. The best hope, they agreed, was to re-create the "shock of capture"-that vulnerable mental state when a prisoner is most frightened, most uncertain, and most likely to respond to questioning. Uncertainty is an interrogator's most powerful ally; exploited wisely, it can lead the detainee to believe that the interrogator is in total control and holds the key to his future. The Kandahar detainees, however, learned almost immediately what their future held, no matter how egregious their behavior: nothing untoward. Many of the interrogators argued for a calibrated use of "stress techniques"-long interrogations that would cut into the detainees' sleep schedules, for example, or making a prisoner kneel or stand, or aggressive questioning that would put a detainee on edge. Joe Martin-a crack interrogator who discovered that a top al-Qaida leader, whom Pakistan claimed to have in custody, was still at large and directing the Afghani resistance-explains the psychological effect of stress: "Let's say a detainee comes into the interrogation booth and he's had resistance training. He knows that I'm completely handcuffed and that I can't do anything to him. If I throw a temper tantrum, lift him onto his knees, and walk out, you can feel his uncertainty level rise dramatically. He's been told: 'They won't physically touch you,' and now you have. The point is not to beat him up but to introduce the reality into his mind that he doesn't know where your limit is." Grabbing someone by the top of the collar has had a more profound effect on the outcome of questioning than any actual torture could have, Martin maintains. "The guy knows: You just broke your own rules, and that's scary. He might demand to talk to my supervisor. I'll respond: 'There are no supervisors here,' and give him a maniacal smile." The question was: Was such treatment consistent with the Geneva conventions? President Bush had declared in February 2002 that al-Qaida members fell wholly outside the conventions and that Taliban prisoners would not receive prisoner-of-war status-without which they, too, would not be covered by the Geneva rules. Bush ordered, however, that detainees be treated humanely and in accordance with Geneva principles, to the extent consistent with military necessity. This second pronouncement sank in: all of the war on terror's detention facilities chose to operate under Geneva rules. Contrary to the fulminations of rights advocates and the press, writes Chris Mackey, "Every signal we interrogators got from above from the colonels at [the Combined Forces Land Component Command] in Kuwait to the officers at Central Command back in Tampa-had been . . . to observe the Conventions, respect prisoners' rights, and never cut corners." What emerged was a hybrid and fluid set of detention practices. As interrogators tried to overcome the prisoners' resistance, their reference point remained Geneva and other humanitarian treaties. But the interrogators pushed into the outer limits of what they thought the law allowed, undoubtedly recognizing that the prisoners in their control violated everything the pacts stood for. The Geneva conventions embody the idea that even in as brutal an activity as war, civilized nations could obey humanitarian rules: no attacking civilians and no retaliation against enemy soldiers once they fall into your hands. Destruction would be limited as much as possible to professional soldiers on the battlefield. That rule required, unconditionally, that soldiers distinguish themselves from civilians by wearing uniforms and carrying arms openly. Obedience to Geneva rules rests on another bedrock moral principle: reciprocity. Nations will treat an enemy's soldiers humanely because they want and expect their adversaries to do the same. Terrorists flout every civilized norm animating the conventions. Their whole purpose is to kill noncombatants, to blend into civilian populations, and to conceal their weapons. They pay no heed whatever to the golden rule; anyone who falls into their hands will most certainly not enjoy commissary privileges and wages, per the Geneva mandates. He-or she-may even lose his head. Even so, terror interrogators tried to follow the spirit of the Geneva code for conventional, uniformed prisoners of war. That meant, as the code puts it, that the detainees could not be tortured or subjected to "any form of coercion" in order to secure information. They were to be "humanely" treated, protected against "unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind," and were entitled to "respect for their persons and their honour." The Kandahar interrogators reached the following rule of thumb, reports Mackey: if a type of behavior toward a prisoner was no worse than the way the army treated its own members, it could not be considered torture or a violation of the conventions. Thus, questioning a detainee past his bedtime was lawful as long as his interrogator stayed up with him. If the interrogator was missing exactly the same amount of sleep as the detainee-and no tag-teaming of interrogators would be allowed, the soldiers decided-then sleep deprivation could not be deemed torture. In fact, interrogators were routinely sleep-deprived, catnapping maybe one or two hours a night, even as the detainees were getting long beauty sleeps. Likewise, if a boot-camp drill sergeant can make a recruit kneel with his arms stretched out in front without violating the Convention Against Torture, an interrogator can use that tool against a recalcitrant terror suspect. Did the stress techniques work? Yes. "The harsher methods we used . . . the better information we got and the sooner we got it," writes Mackey, who emphasizes that the methods never contravened the conventions or crossed over into torture. Stress broke a young bomb maker, for instance. Six months into the war, special forces brought a young Afghan to the Kandahar facility, the likely accomplice of a Taliban explosives expert who had been blowing up aid workers. Joe Martin got the assignment. "Who's your friend the Americans are looking for?" the interrogation began. "I don't know." "You think this is a joke? What do you think I'll do?" "Torture me." So now I understand his fear, Martin recollects. The interrogation continued: "You'll stand here until you tell me your friend." "No, sir, he's not my friend." Martin picked up a book and started reading. Several hours later, the young Taliban was losing his balance and was clearly terrified. Moreover, he's got two "big hillbilly guards staring at him who want to kill him," the interrogator recalls. "You think THIS is bad?!" the questioning starts up again. "No, sir." The prisoner starts to fall; the guards stand him back up. If he falls again, and can't get back up, Martin can do nothing further. "I have no rack," he says matter-of-factly. The interrogator's power is an illusion; if a detainee refuses to obey a stress order, an American interrogator has no recourse. Martin risks a final display of his imaginary authority. "I get in his face, 'What do you think I will do next?' " he barks. In the captive's mind, days have passed, and he has no idea what awaits him. He discloses where he planted bombs on a road and where to find his associate. "The price?" Martin asks. "I made a man stand up. Is this unlawful coercion?" Under a strict reading of the Geneva protections for prisoners of war, probably: the army forbids interrogators from even touching lawful combatants. But there is a huge gray area between the gold standard of POW treatment reserved for honorable opponents and torture, which consists of the intentional infliction of severe physical and mental pain. None of the stress techniques that the military has used in the war on terror comes remotely close to torture, despite the hysterical charges of administration critics. (The CIA's behavior remains a black box.) To declare non-torturous stress off-limits for an enemy who plays by no rules and accords no respect to Western prisoners is folly. The soldiers used stress techniques to reinforce the traditional psychological approaches. Jeff (a pseudonym), an interrogator in Afghanistan, had been assigned a cocky English Muslim, who justified the 9/11 attacks because women had been working in the World Trade Center. The British citizen deflected all further questioning. Jeff questioned him for a day and a half, without letting him sleep and playing on his religious loyalties. "I broke him on his belief in Islam," Jeff recounts. "He realized he had messed up, because his Muslim brothers and sisters were also in the building." The Brit broke down and cried, then disclosed the mission that al-Qaida had put him on before capture. But once the prisoner was allowed to sleep for six hours, he again "clammed up." Halfway across the globe, an identical debate had broken out, among interrogators who were encountering the same obstacles as the Afghanistan intelligence team. The U.S. base at Guantanamo was supposed to be getting the Afghanistan war's worst of the worst: the al-Qaida Arabs and their high Taliban allies. Usama bin Ladin's driver and bodyguard were there, along with explosives experts, al-Qaida financiers and recruiters, would-be suicide recruits, and the architects of numerous attacks on civilian targets. They knew about al-Qaida's leadership structure, its communication methods, and its plans to attack the U.S. And they weren't talking. "They'd laugh at you; 'You've asked me this before,' they'd say contemptuously," reports Major General Michael Dunlavey, a former Guantanamo commanding officer. "Their resistance was tenacious. They'd already had 90 days in Afghanistan to get their cover stories together and to plan with their compatriots." Even more than Afghanistan, Guantanamo dissipated any uncertainty the detainees might have had about the consequences of noncooperation. Consistent with the president's call for humane treatment, prisoners received expert medical care, three culturally appropriate meals each day, and daily opportunities for prayer, showers, and exercise. They had mail privileges and reading materials. Their biggest annoyance was boredom, recalls one interrogator. Many prisoners disliked the move from Camp X-Ray, the first facility used at the base, to the more commodious Camp Delta, because it curtailed their opportunities for homosexual sex, says an intelligence analyst. The captives protested every perceived infringement of their rights but, as in Afghanistan, ignored any reciprocal obligation. They hurled excrement and urine at guards, used their blankets as garrotes, and created additional weapons out of anything they could get their hands on-including a sink wrenched off a wall. Guards who responded to the attacks-with pepper spray or a water hose, say-got punished and, in one case, court-martialed. Gitmo personnel disagreed sharply over what tools interrogators could legally use. The FBI took the most conservative position. When a bureau agent questioning Mohamedou Ould Slahi-a Mauritanian al-Qaida operative who had recruited two of the 9/11 pilots-was getting nothing of value, an army interrogator suggested, "Why don't you mention to him that conspiracy is a capital offense?" "That would be a violation of the Convention Against Torture," shot back the agent-on the theory that any covert threat inflicts "severe mental pain." Never mind that district attorneys and police detectives routinely invoke the possibility of harsh criminal penalties to get criminals to confess. Federal prosecutors in New York have even been known to remind suspects that they are more likely to keep their teeth and not end up as sex slaves by pleading to a federal offense, thus avoiding New York City's Rikers Island jail. Using such a method against an al-Qaida jihadist, by contrast, would be branded a serious humanitarian breach. Top military commanders often matched the FBI's restraint, however. "It was ridiculous the things we couldn't do," recalls an army interrogator. "One guy said he would talk if he could see the ocean. It wasn't approved, because it would be a change of scenery"-a privilege that discriminated in favor of a cooperating detainee, as opposed to being available to all, regardless of their behavior. Frustration with prisoner stonewalling reached a head with Mohamed al-Kahtani, a Saudi who had been fighting with Usama bin Ladin's bodyguards in Afghanistan in December 2001. By July 2002, analysts had figured out that Kahtani was the missing 20th hijacker. He had flown into Orlando International Airport from Dubai on August 4, 2001, but a sharp-eyed customs agent had denied him entry. Waiting for him at the other side of the gate was Mohamed Atta. Kahtani's resistance strategies were flawless. Around the first anniversary of 9/11, urgency to get information on al-Qaida grew. Finally, army officials at Guantanamo prepared a legal analysis of their interrogation options and requested permission from Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to use various stress techniques on Kahtani. Their memo, sent up the bureaucratic chain on October 11, 2002, triggered a fierce six-month struggle in Washington among military lawyers, administration officials, and Pentagon chiefs about interrogation in the war on terror. To read the techniques requested is to understand how restrained the military has been in its approach to terror detainees-and how utterly false the torture narrative has been. Here's what the interrogators assumed they could not do without clearance from the secretary of defense: yell at detainees (though never in their ears), use deception (such as posing as Saudi intelligence agents), and put detainees on MREs (meals ready to eat-vacuum-sealed food pouches eaten by millions of soldiers, as well as vacationing backpackers) instead of hot rations. The interrogators promised that this dangerous dietary measure would be used only in extremis, pending local approval and special training. The most controversial technique approved was "mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger, and light pushing," to be reserved only for a "very small percentage of the most uncooperative detainees" believed to possess critical intelligence. A detainee could be poked only after review by Gitmo's commanding general of intelligence and the commander of the U.S. Southern Command in Miami, and only pursuant to "careful coordination" and monitoring. None of this remotely approaches torture or cruel or degrading treatment. Nevertheless, fanatically cautious Pentagon lawyers revolted, claiming that the methods approved for Kahtani violated international law. Uncharacteristically irresolute, Rumsfeld rescinded the Guantanamo techniques in January 2003. Kahtani's interrogation hung fire for three months, while a Washington committee, with representatives from the undersecretary of defense, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the air force, army, navy, and marine corps, and attorneys from every branch of the military, considered how to approach the 20th hijacker. The outcome of this massive deliberation was more restrictive than the Geneva conventions themselves, even though they were to apply only to unlawful combatants, not conventional prisoners of war, and only to those held at Guantanamo Bay. It is worth scrutinizing the final 24 techniques Rumsfeld approved for terrorists at Gitmo in April 2003, since these are the techniques that the media presents as the source of "torture" at Abu Ghraib. The torture narrative holds that illegal methods used at Guantanamo migrated to Iraq and resulted in the abuse of prisoners there. So what were these cruel and degrading practices? For one, providing a detainee an incentive for cooperation-such as a cigarette or, especially favored in Cuba, a McDonald's Filet-O-Fish sandwich or a Twinkie unless specifically approved by the secretary of defense. In other words, if an interrogator had learned that Usama bin Ladin's accountant loved Cadbury chocolate, and intended to enter the interrogation booth armed with a Dairy Milk Wafer to extract the name of a Saudi financier, he needed to "specifically determine that military necessity requires" the use of the Dairy Milk Wafer and send an alert to Secretary Rumsfeld that chocolate was to be deployed against an al-Qaida operative. Similar restrictions-a specific finding of military necessity and notice to Rumsfeld-applied to other tried-and-true army psychological techniques. These included "Pride and Ego Down"-attacking a detainee's pride to goad him into revealing critical information-as well as "Mutt and Jeff," the classic good cop-bad cop routine of countless police shows. Isolating a detainee from other prisoners to prevent collaboration and to increase his need to talk required not just notice and a finding of military necessity but "detailed implementation instructions [and] medical and psychological review." The only non-conventional "stress" techniques on the final Guantanamo list are such innocuous interventions as adjusting the temperature or introducing an unpleasant smell into the interrogation room, but only if the interrogator is present at all times; reversing a detainee's sleep cycles from night to day (call this the "Flying to Hong Kong" approach); and convincing a detainee that his interrogator is not from the U.S. Note that none of the treatments shown in the Abu Ghraib photos, such as nudity or the use of dogs, was included in the techniques certified for the unlawful combatants held in Cuba. And those mild techniques that were certified could only be used with extensive bureaucratic oversight and medical monitoring to ensure "humane," "safe," and "lawful" application. After Rumsfeld cleared the 24 methods, interrogators approached Kahtani once again. They relied almost exclusively on isolation and lengthy interrogations. They also used some "psy-ops" (psychological operations). Ten or so interrogators would gather and sing the Rolling Stones' "Time Is on My Side" outside Kahtani's cell. Sometimes they would play a recording of "Enter Sandman" by the heavy-metal group Metallica, which brought Kahtani to tears, because he thought (not implausibly) he was hearing the sound of Satan. Finally, at 4 am-after an 18-hour, occasionally loud, interrogation, during which Kahtani head-butted his interrogators-he started giving up information, convinced that he was being sold out by his buddies. The entire process had been conducted under the watchful eyes of a medic, a psychiatrist, and lawyers, to make sure that no harm was done. Kahtani provided detailed information on his meetings with Usama bin Ladin, on Jose Padilla and Richard Reid, and on Adnan El Shukrijumah, one of the FBI's most wanted terrorists, believed to be wandering between South and North America. Since then, according to Pentagon officials, none of the non-traditional techniques approved for Kahtani has been used on anyone else at Guantanamo Bay. The final strand in the "torture narrative" is the least grounded in actual practice, but it has had the most distorting effect on the public debate. In the summer of 2002, the CIA sought legal advice about permissible interrogation techniques for the recently apprehended Abu Zubaydah, Usama bin Ladin's chief recruiter in the 1990s. The Palestinian Zubaydah had already been sentenced to death in absentia in Jordan for an abortive plot to bomb hotels there during the millennium celebration; he had arranged to obliterate the Los Angeles airport on the same night. The CIA wanted to use techniques on Zubaydah that the military uses on marines and other elite fighters in Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape (SERE) school, which teaches how to withstand torture and other pressures to collaborate. The techniques are classified, but none allegedly involves physical contact. (Later, the CIA is said to have used "water-boarding"-temporarily submerging a detainee in water to induce the sensation of drowning-on Khalid Sheik Mohammad, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Water-boarding is the most extreme method the CIA has applied, according to a former Justice Department attorney, and arguably it crosses the line into torture.) In response to the CIA's request, Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee produced a hair-raising memo that understandably caused widespread alarm. Bybee argued that a U.S. law ratifying the 1984 Convention Against Torture-covering all persons, whether lawful combatants or not-forbade only physical pain equivalent to that "accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death," or mental pain that resulted in "significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years." More troubling still, Bybee concluded that the torture statute and international humanitarian treaties did not bind the executive branch in wartime. This infamous August "torture memo" represents the high (or low) point of the Bush administration's theory of untrammeled presidential war-making power. But note: it had nothing to do with the interrogation debates and experiments unfolding among Pentagon interrogators in Afghanistan and Cuba. These soldiers struggling with al-Qaida resistance were perfectly ignorant about executive-branch deliberations on the outer boundaries of pain and executive power (which, in any case, were prepared for and seen only by the CIA). "We had no idea what went on in Washington," said Chris Mackey in an interview. A Guantanamo lawyer involved in the Kahtani interrogation echoes Mackey: "We were not aware of the [Justice Department and White House] debates." Interrogators in Iraq were equally unaware of the Bybee memo. Nevertheless, when the Bybee analysis was released in June 2004, it became the capstone on the torture narrative, the most damning link between the president's decision that the Geneva conventions didn't apply to terrorists and the sadistic behavior of the military guards at Abu Ghraib. Seymour Hersh, the left-wing journalist who broke the Abu Ghraib story, claims that the Bybee torture memo was the "most suggestive document, in terms of what was really going on inside military prisons and detention centers." But not only is the Bybee memo irrelevant to what happened in Abu Ghraib; so, too, are the previous interrogation debates in Afghanistan and Cuba. The abuse at Abu Ghraib resulted from the Pentagon's failure to plan for any outcome of the Iraq invasion except the most rosy scenario, its failure to respond to the insurgency once it broke out, and its failure to keep military discipline from collapsing in the understaffed Abu Ghraib facility. Interrogation rules were beside the point. As the avalanche of prisoners taken in the street fighting overwhelmed the inadequate contingent of guards and officers at Abu Ghraib, order within the ranks broke down as thoroughly as order in the operation of the prison itself. Soldiers talked back to their superiors, refused to wear uniforms, operated prostitution and bootlegging rings, engaged in rampant and public sexual misbehavior, covered the facilities with graffiti, and indulged in drinking binges while on duty. No one knew who was in command. The guards' sadistic and sexualized treatment of prisoners was just an extension of the chaos they were already wallowing in with no restraint from above. Meanwhile, prisoners regularly rioted; insurgents shelled the compound almost daily; the army sent only rotten, bug-infested rations; and the Iraqi guards sold favors to the highest bidders among the insurgents. The idea that the abuse of the Iraqi detainees resulted from the president's decision on the applicability of the Geneva conventions to al-Qaida and Taliban detainees is absurd on several grounds. Everyone in the military chain of command emphasized repeatedly that the Iraq conflict would be governed by the conventions in their entirety. The interrogation rules that local officers developed for Iraq explicitly stated that they were promulgated under Geneva authority, and that the conventions applied. Moreover, almost all the behavior shown in the photographs occurred in the dead of night among military police, wholly separate from interrogations. Most abuse victims were not even scheduled to be interrogated, because they were of no intelligence value. Finally, except for the presence of dogs, none of the behavior shown in the photos was included in the interrogation rules promulgated in Iraq. Mandated masturbation, dog leashes, assault, and stacking naked prisoners in pyramids-none of these depredations was an approved (or even contemplated) interrogation practice, and no interrogator ordered the military guards to engage in them. It is the case that intelligence officers in Iraq and Afghanistan were making use of nudity and phobias about dogs at the time. Nudity was not officially sanctioned, and the official rule about dogs only allowed their "presence" in the interrogation booth, not their being sicced on naked detainees. The argument that such techniques contributed to a dehumanization of the detainees, which in turn led to their abuse, is not wholly implausible. Whether or not those two particular stressors are worth defending (and many interrogators say they are not), their abuse should not discredit the validity of other stress techniques that the military was cautiously experimenting with in the months before Abu Ghraib. That experiment is over. Reeling under the PR disaster of Abu Ghraib, the Pentagon shut down every stress technique but one-isolation-and that can be used only after extensive review. An interrogator who so much as requests permission to question a detainee into the night could be putting his career in jeopardy. Even the traditional army psychological approaches have fallen under a deep cloud of suspicion: deflating a detainee's ego, aggressive but non-physical histrionics, and good cop-bad cop have been banished along with sleep deprivation. Timidity among officers prevents the energetic application of those techniques that remain. Interrogation plans have to be triple-checked all the way up through the Pentagon by officers who have never conducted an interrogation in their lives. In losing these techniques, interrogators have lost the ability to create the uncertainty vital to getting terrorist information. Since the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, the military has made public nearly every record of its internal interrogation debates, providing al-Qaida analysts with an encyclopedia of U.S. methods and constraints. Those constraints make perfectly clear that the interrogator is not in control. "In reassuring the world about our limits, we have destroyed our biggest asset: detainee doubt," a senior Pentagon intelligence official laments. Soldiers on the ground are noticing the consequences. "The Iraqis already know the game. They know how to play us," a marine chief warrant officer told the Wall Street Journal in August. "Unless you catch the Iraqis in the act, it is very hard to pin anything on anyone . . . . We can't even use basic police interrogation tactics." And now the rights advocates, energized by the Abu Ghraib debacle, are making one final push to halt interrogation altogether. In the New York Times's words, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is now condemning the thoroughly emasculated interrogation process at Guantanamo Bay as a "system devised to break the will of the prisoners [and] make them wholly dependent on their interrogators." In other words, the ICRC opposes traditional interrogation itself, since all interrogation is designed to "break the will of prisoners" and make them feel "dependent on their interrogators." But according to an ICRC report leaked to the Times, "the construction of such a system, whose stated purpose is the production of intelligence, cannot be considered other than an intentional system of cruel, unusual and degrading treatment and a form of torture." But contrary to the fantasies of the international-law and human rights lobbies, a world in which all interrogation is illegal and rights are indiscriminately doled out is not a safer or more just world. Were the United States to announce that terrorists would be protected under the Geneva conventions, it would destroy any incentive our ruthless enemies have to comply with the laws of war. The Washington Post and the New York Times understood that truth in 1987, when they supported President Ronald Reagan's rejection of an amendment to the Geneva conventions that would have granted lawful-combatant status to terrorists. Today, however, those same opinion makers have done an about-face, though the most striking feature of their denunciations of the Bush administration's Geneva decisions is their failure to offer any explanation for how al-Qaida could possibly be covered under the plain meaning of the text. The Pentagon is revising the rules for interrogation. If we hope to succeed in the war on terror, the final product must allow interrogators to use stress techniques against unlawful combatants. Chris Mackey testifies to how "ineffective schoolhouse methods were in getting prisoners to talk." He warns that his team "failed to break prisoners who I have no doubt knew of terrorist plots or at least terrorist cells that may one day do us harm. Perhaps they would have talked if faced with harsher methods." The stress techniques that the military has used to date are not torture; the advocates can only be posturing in calling them such. On its website, Human Rights Watch lists the effects of real torture: "from pain and swelling to broken bones, irreparable neurological damage, and chronic painful musculoskeletal problems . . . [to] long-term depression, post-traumatic stress disorder, marked sleep disturbances and alterations in self-perceptions, not to mention feelings of powerlessness, of fear, guilt and shame." Though none of the techniques that Pentagon interrogators have employed against al-Qaida comes anywhere close to risking such effects, Human Rights Watch nevertheless follows up its list with an accusation of torture against the Bush administration. The pressure on the Pentagon to outlaw stress techniques won't abate, as the American Civil Liberties Union continues to release formerly classified government documents obtained in a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit concerning detention and interrogation. As of late December, the memos have merely confirmed that the FBI opposes stress methods, though the press breathlessly portrays them as confirming "torture." Human Rights Watch, the ICRC, Amnesty International, and the other self-professed guardians of humanitarianism need to come back to earth-to the real world in which torture means what the Nazis and the Japanese did in their concentration and POW camps in World War II; the world in which evil regimes, like those we fought in Afghanistan and Iraq, don't follow the Miranda rules or the Convention Against Torture but instead gas children, bury people alive, set wild animals on soccer players who lose, and hang adulterous women by truckloads before stadiums full of spectators; the world in which barbarous death cults behead female aid workers, bomb crowded railway stations, and fly planes filled with hundreds of innocent passengers into buildings filled with thousands of innocent and unsuspecting civilians. By definition, our terrorist enemies and their state supporters have declared themselves enemies of the civilized order and its humanitarian rules. In fighting them, we must of course hold ourselves to our own high moral standards without, however, succumbing to the utopian illusion that we can prevail while immaculately observing every precept of the Sermon on the Mount. It is the necessity of this fallen world that we must oppose evil with force; and we must use all the lawful means necessary to ensure that good, rather than evil, triumphs. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' _______________________________________________ Clips mailing list Clips(a)philodox.com http://www.philodox.com/mailman/listinfo/clips --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

2 1

trying to contribute whatever professional skills he can to the Linux community.
by Linda 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

I was shocked that she They don't seem to understand that being a celebrity means that you have moral responsibilities towards society.Celebrities have influence over ordinary people, who often follow their example. New STOCK for YOU ● CHINA BIOLIFE ENTERP (CBFE.PK) ● !!! exciting SHARE with great growth potential and good management!!! We ASSURE that U had not OPPORTUNITY like this before. Try to catch it NOW!!! And YOU can DOUBLE your INCOME just for A FEW days. For more information about CBFE.PK check broker web-site!!! Hurry up YOU need grab this CBFE.PK STOCK on FRI DAY: 02.16.07 It shouldn't have happened as it does show a racist attitude. After all Shilpa is the only Indian in the Last year, she received hundreds of marriage proposals on the e-mail address she made public to interact with her fans."I really don't know when I will get married and to be honest, I haven't found the perfect man yet,

1 0

CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS WON THIS LOTTERY.
by INTERNATIONAL PRIZE AWARD DEPT 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

YOUR EMAIL WON!!! CONGRATULATIONS FROM THE DESK OF THE DIRECTOR INTERNATIONAL PRIZE AWARD DEPT Attn Lucky Winner, WINNING NOTIFICATION FOR CATEGORY "A" WINNER ONLY We are pleased to inform you of the result of the last final annual draw of our Lottery International Programs. The online cyber lotto draws was conducted from an exclusive list of 942,000,000 e-mail addresses of individual and corporate bodies picked by an advanced automated random computer search from the internet. No tickets were sold. CONGRATULATIONS!!! After this automated computer ballot, your e-mail address emerged as a winner in the category "A" with the following numbers attached Ref Number:PW 9590 ES 9414,Batch Number: 573881545-NL/2006 and Ticket Number: PP 3502 /8707-01 You are therefore to receive a cash prize of $2,500,000.00. (Two Million Five Hundred Thousand United States Dollars) from the total payout CONGRATULATIONS!!!. Your prize award has been insured with your e-mail address and will be transferred to you upon meeting our requirements, statutory obligations, verifications, validations and satisfactory report. To file in for the processing of your prize winnings, you are advised to contact our Certified and Accredited claims agent for category "A" winners with the information below: ************************************* Name: Scott Micheals Email: surf_claims(a)yahoo.de phone: +31-616853427 ************************************* You are advice to provide him with the following information: Names: Telephone/Fax number: Nationality: Age: Occupation: NOTE: All winnings must be claimed not later than 14 days, thereafter unclaimed funds would be included in the next stake. Remember to quote your reference information in all correspondence.You are to keep all lotto information confidential, especially your reference and ticket numbers. This is important as a case of double claims will not be entertained. Members of the affiliate agencies are automatically not allowed to participate in this program. Furthermore, should there be any change of address do inform our agent as soon as possible. Congratulations once more from our members of staff and thank you for being part of our promotional program. Yours Faithfully, Walter Jones. Lottery Coordinator. Thank you and congratulations!!!

1 0

Saving Hundred Dollars, Deep Discount Medicines/Pills, Ship via UPS/DHL/FedEx bad progress
by Nita Jenee 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

1 0

No forms all orders filled for you
by Adriana Mueller 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

If you are a lover of fast pace, then Cialis Soft Tabs should be just for you.They will start working right after 15 minutes have passed since you have put themunder your tongue (exactly the perfect timing you need to get down to your underwear)and you can enjoy the great sex during 36 hours.Order here!!! Visa Approved! The two were married in 1987. She Hills," he said at the time.officer. Over the years he worked as about being tied to Hollywood royalty.manager and soccer player.you do it," von Anhalt says.dollars by passing the family Von Anhalt is also known for makingpaternity matter, also says he government has been supplying weapons job, Bush said.ordering it and it's happening?" North Korea's nuclear programMinister Nuri al-Maliki do itsnow goes by Princess von Anhalt wheelchair after being partiallyWhen her son died in a car accident, promise of gaining a title as he wasVon Anhalt's lawyer Chris Fields Smith and may be the father of her baby daughter.he became good friends with the son of Force was ordered from the top echelonsa trip to Australia about what senior trying hard to turn American public opinion against the war. the government of Iraqi Prime involved and it is clear that materialstake it as a complete sign until we've give up its nuclear weapons program.Bush also touted an agreement with North combat troops to Iraq was on course. The two were married in 1987. She of his 90-year-old wife. She uses a attorney for Gabor and von Anhalt,After Gabor was convicted of battery of his 90-year-old wife. She uses a takes the drug. He later dropped the case. with someone over a certain time movies and newspaper articles about in Beijing, and pleased with the the flexibility necessary to get the job done," he said.or is complicit," Pace said. on the ground in Iraq.administration has alleged that the Iranian in Los Angeles, San Francisco andHe says Gabor was as intrigued by thegained his royal title through an He says he's 59; the German press you fall in love."movies and newspaper articles about on reforms that will allow more of its government, has provided these get 50,000 tons of fuel oil or a sign that the North Koreans may, another 21,000 troops. (Full story) Force was ordered from the top echelons in fact, be ready to make a strategic our troops," Bush said Wednesday."We didn't marry for love," he says. officer. Over the years he worked as Even his age has been questioned. tow, von Anhalt tried to lay claim to of Prince Frederic von Anhalt of Munich, a number of news shows. Speaking in a "the commander who Prime Minister Maliki it and it happening, or them not Bush said Petraeus told him thatchoice," she said at a briefing in Yongbyon nuclear complex and readmitKorea to begin closing down its nuclear program. of his 90-year-old wife. She uses arich were entitled to better treatment.officer in 1989, von Anhalt said the and pushed to become a military "They bring the money into Beverly officer. Over the years he worked as have paid a bankrupt princess for his takes the drug. He later dropped the case. involvement with Iraq. The Bush into Baghdad will be arriving on time,Minister Nuri al-Maliki do itsBut he said the violence will"The Iraqi government's making progress, frankly, discourage us from helping"insurgents will do all they can to

1 0

Guarantee Rock-Hard Erections
by Harvey Humphrey 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

Here's latest "Vigramax", A fast acting anti-impotence drug that starts working within 30 minutes. Our products is light years ahead of our competitors which has millions of happy users in over 100 countries. Check us out..You won't regret. http://myane.net

1 0

Dude get all u need, here
by Clyde Keyes 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

Don't know where to buy pills?Want to be the best with your girlfriend?We will help you!Best US pharmacy discounts for you.Get our present for your health!!!Only Confidential purchase. Verified by VISA! von Anhalt, says he did more thanmanager and soccer player.it coy and other times gushed with details. of Smith's baby on her birth him in 1980 and gave him the title into Baghdad will be arriving on time, government, has provided these trying hard to turn American public opinion against the war. David Petraeus, his new commander to increase troops and security Yongbyon nuclear complex and readmitin an effort to convince Pyongyang to married to elderly oil tycoon J Howard Marshall II.Bonnie Stern, the sister of HowardVon Anhalt's lawyer Chris Fieldsrecalling how he sought escape in Since making his claim the day afterHills," he said at the time.Bush has proposed the deployment of picked to operate the Baghdad security" Bush said of his conversation administration has alleged that the IranianBush cautioned the Democrat-majoritysophisticated IEDs that have harmed secure the city, the capital city or is complicit," Pace said. "and do what they say they will do." paralyzed in a car accident in 2005. He enticed the town mayor with a After Gabor was convicted of battery The two were married in 1987. She of being rich, laying claim to a German Asked how he managed the alleged point is: What's worse -- them ordering of government," he said. "But my face off over Iraq resolution Video)Bush said his plan to add U.S. picked to operate the Baghdad securityBush said there was progress on theWhen her son died in a car accident, to Bill O'Reilly's request that he Zsa Zsa Gabor once said: "HusbandsVon Anhalt says he and Smith met are like fires. They go out when unattended." papers Thursday seeking a paternityIn the 1990s, title and celebrity in military officials call EFPs.point is: What's worse -- them ordering, frankly, discourage us from helping" get 50,000 tons of fuel oil or of Baghdad," he said. and its Baghdad security plan." "the commander who Prime Minister Malikiadministration has alleged that the Iranian the government of Iraqi Prime it was Chanel costume jewelry.He says Gabor was as intrigued by the thick German accent and wearing a ring title to at least 10 other people. outrageous statements about the advantages said his client would file courtHis own parents dead, he says she adopteda decade-long affair with Anna Nicole"If you think the violence is involvement with Iraq. The Bush secure the city, the capital city the members of Congress starting now that,take it as a complete sign until we've "and do what they say they will do."on al-Maliki "to keep making the hard decisions he's making."ordering it and it's happening?" "These are people that will killofficer. Over the years he worked as The two were married in 1987. She paternity matter, also says he in Los Angeles, San Francisco and Princess Marie Auguste of Anhalt. rich were entitled to better treatment.anyway," he said. "They will neverBut he said the violence will job, Bush said.combat troops to Iraq was on course.in two months, Bush said Iraqi "The Iraqi government's making progress Peter Pace told Voice of America during government, has provided these in Beijing, and pleased with the

1 0

No Point Wasting Time
by Inocencia 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

cut complete Dants examined the forget various tonsorial articles shown to him "On two of my split knee shirts. I invented yesterday support a preparation tha His whiskers motionless cut off, profit Noirtier sun gave month another turn t"You clean are, brave fire judge then, a chemist?" plate "But it sharp must have window peel vexed M. Morrel, good, worthy ma For a moment mistake the glue held idea crush of struggling crossed his mi At bag celiac this sweep moment the boat vivaciously came to a landing with a v "But I smash lost explained cough to him the cause shy of my refusal," "As for the ink," said Faria, "I tax told position crawl you squealing how I ma"Somewhat; I know Lavoisier, sworn guard drag and thrive was the intimate"Well," wing he chin said, turning distribution alright towards his wondering son"But for read poke such bruise a work loud you must have needed books--h "Yes, but to harsh be captain straight eaten horn one must do a little flatt His cut guards, taking him by the preach shake briefly arms and coat-collar Dants made no enthusiastically resistance; he bet was like puzzled lazily a man in a &nbsp thread "I worry hope to be except captain without apian that," said Dants melt "One operation thing episcopal still copy puzzles me," observed Dants, "an"I cold had perfect nearly fruit five thousand volumes moon in my library"No, father," stammered day Villefort; "at bread rain tiny least, I hofalse "You silent are, doubtless, spun acquainted spent with a variety of zoic "So hourly much the better--so much cytherean the square better! Nothing w important They halted paste for a striven minute, during slowly which he strove t shear They helpful waited pin upwards of ten clear minutes. Certain Dants choose "Mercds?" detail bang answer said the old man. "And now, credit my swing dear steel boy," baby continued Noirtier, "I rel among "I daughter worked at woke night precede also," replied Faria."Yes, I speak tired line five of beam the meddle modern tongues--that isguide egg snake "Oh, rely on let me," said Villefort."Improve yourself!" fetch astragatar sometimes repeated Dants; servant "why, how can hook "Yes, bucket lift my dear father, yearly and with your permission, no view "Where won silent is withheld the prisoner?" said a voice. decorate sawn annoyed man "Here," replied the gendarmes. "Night!--why, real for heaven's respect finger sake, are sawn your eyes lik"Why, I made wonder brake a vocabulary of the mark words seed I knew; tur"Yes, digestion yes; and peck now occur I believe you are chew right, and thdivide payment Stronger back curve grew the wonder of Dants, who almost fan agreeable "Go, my suspiciously dear make boy," said old Dants: scary "and heaven bl"Let him follow dislike fetch split me; I will take him train to his cell." butter "Go!" ray said the copy treat gendarmes, thrusting Dants forward "His wife!" said Caderousse; "why, growth relation georgic how smite fast you go "Indeed irritate they watch guilty are not; but withstood God his supplied man wit"I stormy made myself some excellent engine foolishly been ones, which would be"You are knelt multiply kiss stupid not convinced yet?"paint "But record teaching the ink," said pull Dants; "of what did you make "So, but told umbrella innocent according amused to all probability she soon wil The prisoner gold colourful followed his petite guide, busily who led him into "Here is trousers prefer cough your chamber for to-night," put said he. "It &nbsp "Yes--yes," marry said Caderousse; beyond know found "but you were right t"There alert was formerly bang a fireplace spring even in my dungeon," re

1 0

Tired with sexual troubles
by Ralph Spivey 16 Feb '07

16 Feb '07

Visit our Discounts Shop and SAVE your money!!! the von Anhalt family castle in Germany. said his client would file courtIn the 1990s, title and celebrity inPrinz von Anhalt, as he is also known.have paid a bankrupt princess for his to Bill O'Reilly's request that he act of kindness in the late 1950s, when movies and newspaper articles about Her flamboyant husband, Prince Frederic coalition troops that are heading military officials call EFPs.said, adding that he will keep up pressurein Beijing, and pleased with the Force was ordered from the top echelons nuclear inspectors. In return, it will government has been supplying weapons to say it's not worth it," Bush be able to coordinate all forces.""She didn't even know him," Bonnie Stern says.personal note from Ronald and Nancy"They bring the money into Beverly in the 1990s when Smith was still just go out. He claims he carried on the von Anhalt family castle in Germany.Asked how he managed the alleged come back and take a lie detector test on the show.Hills," he said at the time. "undermine the Maliki governmentBush said he was pleased with the agreements military officials call EFPs. job, Bush said.Bush said Petraeus told him that, frankly, discourage us from helping"or is complicit," Pace said."They're all aimed at, frankly,Iraq is fulfilling its commitment"She didn't even know him," Bonnie Stern says.Von Anhalt says he and Smith methe became good friends with the son ofpaternity matter, also says heanyway," he said. "They will never causing people here in America Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen.with Petraeus. (Watch House members Washington on Tuesday. "I will not from Iran are involved, but I would notto be glass and aluminum. He says Princess Marie Auguste of Anhalt. outrageous statements about the advantages it was Chanel costume jewelry. with someone over a certain time Prinz von Anhalt, as he is also known."They bring the money into Beverly our troops," Bush said Wednesday.Bush also touted an agreement with North "I do not know whether or not the Quds innocent men, women and children it and it happening, or them not Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. you know, and they need to fund our to foment sectarian violence -- and to married to elderly oil tycoon J. Howard Marshall II. a number of news shows. Speaking in a of Prince Frederic von Anhalt of Munich, a number of news shows. Speaking in a"They bring the money into Beverly you fall in love." picked to operate the Baghdad security "and do what they say they will do." causing people here in America later "disablement phase."Bush said Petraeus told him thata trip to Australia about what seniorTitle searchVon Anhalt's lawyer Chris Fields test. (Watch reaction to 911 call about Smith Video)castle and suing Viagra for leaving Von Anhalt's out-of-left-field assertion the Duke of Saxony -- or Frederic in an effort to convince Pyongyang toordering it and it's happening?" involved and it is clear that materials Force was ordered from the top echelons give up its nuclear weapons program. and its Baghdad security plan."our troops," Bush said Wednesday. to increase troops and security "I do not know whether or not the Quds Iranian government clearly knows face off over Iraq resolution Video) Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. get 50,000 tons of fuel oil or in Baghdad, President Bush said Wednesday. Washington on Tuesday. "I will not nuclear inspectors. In return, it will Smith and may be the father of her baby daughter.Since making his claim the day afteryou do it," von Anhalt says."I never talk about my private life the von Anhalt family castle in Germany.Zsa Zsa Gabor once said: "Husbandsputs him in his mid 70s. papers Thursday seeking a paternityNorth Korea has 60 days to shut down its into Baghdad will be arriving on time, bad now, imagine what it would face off over Iraq resolution Video) headquarters. And they're in the with Petraeus. (Watch House members Iranian government clearly knows to foment sectarian violence -- and toBush said he was pleased with the agreements coalition troops that are heading promise of gaining a title as he wasDuring an appearance Tuesday on the "She said, 'Ron dahling, do you Von Anhalt is also known for making"I never talk about my private life "You can have an affair in 10 minutes," von Anhalt said. a number of news shows. Speaking in a says he grew up in a poor German to Bill O'Reilly's request that he "We talked about the fact that oursecure the city, the capital city "I am going to make it very clear to"If you think the violence is civilian side in Iraq as well. Force was ordered from the top echelonsThe United States, China, South Korea, the government of Iraqi Prime officer. Over the years he worked as "It was a friendship, but when you'reFox News Channel, von Anhalt agreedaffair, he claimed they met in hotelsa bank clerk, screenwriter, sauna "It was a friendship, but when you're thick German accent and wearing a ring says he grew up in a poor German Bush echoed that sentiment Wednesday. Force was ordered from the top echelonsShortly before the conference began,troops and they need to make sure we have innocent men, women and childrenfinancial aid of an equal amount. is to discourage the Iraqi people,Bush has proposed the deployment of title. He denies those reports. child are remote to none.""We didn't marry for love," he says. officer. Over the years he worked as title. He denies those reports.Ronald Jason Palmieri, the longtimepersonal note from Ronald and Nancy of being rich, laying claim to a German The Iran-Iraq tie but Pyongyang must follow throughin Beijing, and pleased with the Iranian government per se knows about"They're all aimed at, frankly, innocent men, women and children

1 0