May 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: This disc will self-destruct in 48 hours.
by Major Variola (ret) 16 May '03

16 May '03

Found these US Patents: 6,511,728 Pseudo-transmissive read inhibitor for optical storage media 6,537,635 Pseudo-reflective read inhibitor for optical storage media Tinker away :-)

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This disc will self-destruct in 48 hours.
by Major Variola (ret) 16 May '03

16 May '03

[Of course computer tinkerers can't prevent it from rusting, but chemical tinkerers will have fun. Or are inert gasses to be banned under DMCA? Hmmm, a hermetic case-mod..] That is the warning The Walt Disney Co. (NYSE:DIS - news) will issue this August when it begins to "rent" DVDs that after two days become unplayable and do not have to be returned. Disney home video unit Buena Vista Home Entertainment will launch a pilot movie "rental" program in August that uses the self-destruction technology, the company said on Friday. The discs stop working when a process similar to rusting makes them unreadable. The discs start off red, but when they are taken out of the package, exposure to oxygen turns the coating black and makes it impenetrable by a DVD laser. Buena Vista hopes the technology will let it crack a wider rental market, since it can sell the DVDs in stores or almost anywhere without setting up a system to get the discs back. The discs work perfectly for the two-day viewing window, said Flexplay Technologies, Inc., the private company which developed the technology using material from General Electric Co.(NYSE:GE - news) The technology cannot be hacked by programmers who would want to view the disc longer because the mechanism which closes the viewing window is chemical and has nothing to do with computer technology. However, the disc can be copied within 48 hours, since it works like any other DVD during that window. Buena Vista did not disclose pricing plans but said the discs, dubbed EZ-D, would be available in August in select markets with recent releases including "The Recruit," "The Hot Chick," and "Signs." http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030516/tc_nm/media_disn…

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FW: Security Software Engineer needed
by Eric Murray 16 May '03

16 May '03

Forwarded in case people are interested: ----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks(a)lne.com -----

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Zero Knowledge in the Cave
by Nomen Nescio 16 May '03

16 May '03

Zero Knowledge in the Cave There is a cave with a large entry room. From this room lead two passageways, 1 and 2. Each of 1 and 2 branches into a myriad of smaller passages, twisting and turning through the massive rock formation. The passageways go on for miles and have never been fully explored. One of the big questions has been whether passageways 1 and 2 ever connect up. Is there a way of getting from 1 to 2? Many have searched, but none have ever succeeded. Most people believe that no connection will ever be found. At least, no one used to. Now an explorer comes to you and claims to have found a passage from 1 to 2, not a very long one, either. He will prove it to you, but to you alone. Being a secretive type, he wants no one else to know. If you accompany him to the cave, he will prove the existence of the passageway to you. But there's a problem. You carry a video camera and record everything that you see. If he shows you the existence of the passage, you will be able to show the video tape to others, and they will learn of its existence as well. Not to worry, he says. Come with me. So you enter the large entry room of the cave together. Now the simplest thing to do in order to demonstrate the existence of the connection would be for him to leave through passage 1 and return through passage 2. He could easily do this. However, your film record of the event would prove to anyone else who saw it that there was a connection. Another way must be found. The explorer tells you what to do. Following his instructions, you leave the entry room for a few minutes, while the explorer enters one of the passageways. You then re-enter the room, and loudly call out one of the passageway numbers, either 1 or 2. In a few minutes, the explorer comes out of the requested passageway. You then leave the cave and repeat the process many times. Each time, the reporter enters one of the passageways unknown to you; when you return and name one of them, he is able without fail to exit from the named passage. You reason that if there were no connection between the passageways, the only way the explorer could come out the passage that you named would be if he had gone in that same one. He would have to guess which one you were going to choose, and if he were right, he could come out that one. But you have repeated the test dozens of times. The chances that someone could guess right so often is infinitisimal. The only logical explanation is that the passageway does exist. Excited, you return to the tavern where you met the explorer and show the other patrons your tape. But to your surprise, they just laugh. They don't deny that the tape is real, that the explorer did come out of the passageway you named. But they don't believe in the connection. Instead, they claim you are in league with the explorer in an attempt to perpetrate a fraud. You have simply predetermined together the sequence of numbers you would call out. Each of you has memorized the sequence, and so each time the explorer is able to anticipate the number you will call next. He enters that passage and is able, after a suitable pause, to exit from that same one when you call its number. You leave the bar, frustrated. You are convinced that the connection exists, but even though the tape shows all of the evidence that was so convincing to you, no one else finds it persuasive. The explorer has achieved his goal of proving the existence of the connection to you and you alone. Questions for the student: 1. How could you have done things differently, to produce a tape that would be convincing to others? 2. What counter-measures and conditions could the explorer have put in place to prevent you from getting a convincing tape in this manner?

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RE: This disc will self-destruct in 48 hours.
by Trei, Peter 16 May '03

16 May '03

> Major Variola (ret)[SMTP:mv@cdc.gov] > > > > > That is the warning The Walt Disney Co. (NYSE:DIS - news) will issue > this August when it begins to "rent" DVDs that after two days become > unplayable and do not have to be returned. > > [Of course computer tinkerers can't prevent it from rusting, but > chemical tinkerers will have fun. > Or are inert gasses to be banned under DMCA? Hmmm, a hermetic > case-mod..] > ...or keep them in the freezer between viewings. The thing to do is to get the Greens screaming about the eco pollution factor of zillions of disks filling landfills. Peter

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<nettime> The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 16 May '03

16 May '03

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/living /1051877124142830.xml # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo(a)bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime(a)bbs.thing.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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<nettime> The War on David Nelson
by Bruce Sterling 16 May '03

16 May '03

*Imagine if these wretches had the even more common name "Geert Lovink." Really, one shudders to think -- bruces If your name is David Nelson you can expect to be hassled, delayed, questioned and searched before being allowed to board aircraft anywhere in the United States for the foreseeable future. Since the horrific attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, the federal Transportation Security Administration has, without any public announcement, created a two-tiered list of names "to protect our aviation system," says Nico Melendez, the agency spokesman for the West Coast, who is based in Los Angeles. The name David Nelson apparently is on one of those lists. "There is a 'no-fly' list," he says. "That's people who cannot fly, period, " because they've been determined to be or are suspected of being "a threat to civil aviation or to national security." Details about the list are "considered sensitive security information and cannot be released to the public," Nico says, but the Wall Street Journal suggests there are about 300 names on the "no-fly" list. There's another list that Nico calls the "selectees list." Might as well call them "suspectees." This is a much larger list of names, accumulated, Nico says, from information obtained from intelligence agencies and the airlines. These folks may be allowed to fly but only after they're intensely scrutinized by airline, law enforcement and security personnel. People whose names are on the two lists undergo what is not a routine security screening, in which you're asked to remove your shoes or empty your pockets. This week 18 men named David Nelson, all residents of Oregon, confirmed they have been repeatedly delayed at airport counters and security checkpoints in the last year or so. Take the February experience of Dave Nelson of Salem, a lobbyist whose largest client is the Oregon Seed Council. Dave often travels for business, sometimes accompanying the governor on trade missions. "We were on our way to a trade show in Atlanta," Dave says, "trying to use the auto-check-in for baggage. We punched in our information, and the computer wouldn't accept it." Dave and his wife, Leah, stood in line until an agent was available at the Delta counter. "We gave him our info, and he kept punching on his computer for about 10 or 15 minutes. . . . Then he says, 'I have to go in the back room.' He took off, and we stood there another 10 minutes. I asked L1 another clerk to find out where he'd gone." After more waiting, they were told a supervisor was being sought. "Nobody would tell us what was going on," Dave says. "It's been 30 or 35 minutes by now. Finally the guy came out and said, 'You'll have to talk to the cop behind you.' We turned around, and there's a security guy." Dave says the officer told him there was a list of suspicious people, "and you're on the list." Dave was asked for I.D. and turned over his driver's license. "They called downtown and ran a criminal check, and I was clean. Then the counter clerk had to call national Delta and get permission for me to go on the airplane. We were now pretty close to takeoff time." Dave and his wife were issued tickets, but again at the gate Dave was thoroughly frisked, searched and identified. At the airport in Atlanta on the way back, the same thing happened. "The woman punched in my name and said, 'Oh, no, Mr. Nelson . . .' " One after another, local David Nelsons tell the same story: At airports their bags are put through bomb detectors; they are delayed, searched, questioned. David Nelson of Gresham says he was searched and screened three times at the Portland airport, then again at the gates of Dallas and Atlanta airports before arriving in Savannah, Ga., last month. "It's as if they think you've been transformed into a terrorist en route. You'd think one screening was enough, when you haven't left a secure area the entire trip." "What really concerned me," says David Nelson of Northwest Portland, who recently was delayed trying to fly to Juneau, Alaska, to take care of his mother, "was even when they determined I wasn't the one on the list, it's like I had a label on my forehead that says, 'One must frisk this person at every opportunity and go through his luggage.' It's as if I were a pariah. " David had no idea why he was being singled out; no one mentioned a list. "My son is a pilot for Continental; I thought maybe that had something to do with it." Oregon state Sen. David Nelson, from Pendleton, also had no idea why he was being delayed at airports. "Then we flew into the Medford airport on Horizon, and one of the agents said, 'Your name is on the list. You're going to be checked every place you go.' That was a shock." As David Nelsons all over the country have learned, once your name is on the list, there's no way you can get it removed. Every time you go to an airport, you're assumed to be guilty until you can prove yourself innocent. Dave Nelson, the Salem lobbyist, spent a lot of time making phone calls after his trip to Atlanta, trying to learn how he could avoid the security hassles. "I thought I'd seen something on the news that you could get a pre-clearance, a photo I.D. We called the Port, and they knew nothing. I called the FBI and went up the ranks, and there's nothing like that. You're just stuck. I said, 'What if I used my full name, or just an initial?' They said, 'None of that would make a difference. You're on the list.' " Somewhere in the world there's an actual terrorist suspect named David Nelson who started all this mess. Several David Nelsons have been told by security or airline personnel that he's from Nashville. But they're looking for him everywhere. Portland radiologist David Nelson "never could figure out why I was constantly getting flagged. Our bags would always come back with tape around them, saying they had been searched." His son and namesake, David Wesley Nelson, who's 27, thought he was always stopped "because of my age." When he flew to Los Angeles recently, "they gave me a big hassle because I didn't have a passport. I said, 'I don't normally carry a passport when traveling within the U.S.' " Every single David Nelson interviewed understood the need for greater security in a post Sept. 11 world. They realize there are trade-offs between liberty and security. But in today's world of high-tech wizardry, it's hard to believe the Transportation Security Administration can't come up with a computer software program that would create a "free-to-fly" list of people whose I.D. has been checked and whose innocence already has been verified. The problem is not the "no-fly" list or the "selectees" list. The problem is, once you're on the lists, you can't get off. It's one thing to know you have to get to the airport three or four hours before every flight; the David Nelsons might accept that as a sign of the times. But how would you feel, knowing your name was on a government terrorist watch list? Linda Nelson of Tigard says her husband, David Nelson, has been hassled in airports. "You're treated as a second-class citizen in your own country," she says. David Nelson is a common name. "My dentist has a couple of them in his practice," says David Nelson of Aloha, "and my boss is actually named David Nelson. He's had the same thing happen to him." Nico Melendez of the Transportation Security Administration will not confirm that the name David Nelson is on the "no-fly" or "selectees" list. But he does say that people who want to see if their name is on either list or who want to make a complaint, can call the agency's contact center at 866-289-9673 or send an e-mail to TellTSA(a)tsa.dot.gov. But if your name is David Nelson, chances are you won't breeze through any airports in the near future. Even if you're a celebrity. Remember Ozzie and Harriet's son, David Nelson? "I got stopped at the John Wayne Airport" in Orange County, Calif., he said by phone from Los Angeles this week. "Two police officers knew who I was and tried to explain to the guy behind the security desk. It didn't faze him at all." Even as another officer was saying he had once met David's mother, Harriet, David was being instructed to remove his shoes, he says. "I asked, 'Does the guy on the list have a middle name of Ozzie?' He said, 'It just says David Nelson.' " http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/margie_boule/index.ssf?/base/living /1051877124142830.xml # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo(a)bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime(a)bbs.thing.net --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: Fatherland tries to tie pot to 'terrorists'
by Tyler Durden 16 May '03

16 May '03

I guess there aren't many (currently) pot-smkoing persons on this list. Apparently, pot is the number 2 cash crop in the US, after soy. As a result of Reagun era "war on drugs", pot-growers moved indoors and also in the process created new monster breeds of reefer that render the best hash we had in the 70s "lemonade". There was a fascinating NY Times article in the mid-90s in the subject. Apparently, some counties in the deep south have tossed out elected sherrifs that were hostile to pot growers and installed "friendlier" ones. Look for counties were pot busts went from X to zero in a short time. Actually, there are some technologies used by some pot growers that are probably of interest to Cypherpunks. Apparently, Route 95 is now famous for growers who move up and down between states to their various grow-locations, each one without enough pot to merit long term jail time. If one of the locations are entered, the most sophisticated growers are alerted electronically, and never return to tha location again. One wonders what cryptographic protocols are being used by said growers, and whether growers are able to use them properly. -TD >From: Mike Rosing <eresrch(a)eskimo.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)lne.com >Subject: Re: Fatherland tries to tie pot to 'terrorists' >Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 06:13:51 -0700 (PDT) > >On Fri, 16 May 2003, Sandy Harris wrote: > > > In Af, there was hashish more-or-less everywhere, and exceedingly > > high quality. Everyone from customs officials and military officers > > to street urchins and respectable merchants offerred it to us. I > > don't think that, in several weeks in the country, we ever spent > > more than a half hour in public without someone trying to sell us > > hash. Friends visited a warehouse with hundreds of kilos in it. > > > > We were not offerred opium. > >This is what I've read from people on the ground there now. Basicly, >opium is a crop for sale, but hash is the drug of choice. > > > I'd say that if opium is indeed a major crop in Af now, then the > > situation was created by some combination of US pressure on other > > sources, the Islamic gov't in Iran suppressing it there, various > > groups -- including Bin Laden's lads -- needing money to fight > > the Russians, Taliban (probably with the help of the CIA and > > Pakistani Intelligence, who created them) needing money, ... > >It grows well there on top of it all, and gets a high value. >All the rest is opportunism. > >I guess it'd be nice if a lot of that "nice quality hash" made >it back to the US. But I suspect our troops will smoke it all first! > >Patience, persistence, truth, >Dr. mike _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

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Mafia's 3G electoral fraud tactics
by R. A. Hettinga 16 May '03

16 May '03

...From the "the only good vote is a vote you can sell" department... Cheers, RAH ------ <http://www.reuters.co.uk/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=internetNews&story…> Reuters Mafia's 3G electoral fraud tactics Last Updated: 15 May 2003 21:18 BST ROME (Reuters) - Italy's mafia organisations have come up with a use for third-generation mobile phones that makers of the gadgets probably did not have in mind -- vote-rigging. Here's the idea: you promise a voter 50 euros (31 pounds) to cast their ballot for your candidate, send them into the booth with a 3G phone, they send a picture via the phone proving that they have voted as instructed and then they get the cash. But Italian authorities have caught onto the plan and pledged to stop it going ahead in regional elections on May 25. "Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu has taken immediate measures to stave off any attempt to violate the secrecy of the vote, with particular reference to the use of 3G phones in polling stations," a ministry statement said. It did not specify what the measures were. Mafia organisations in parts of Italy have traditionally tried to influence the outcome of elections to get favours in return once their candidates are in post. In one infamous instance of postwar vote-rigging, mafiosi handed impoverished voters a left shoe when they went to vote, promising the right shoe if they voted as instructed. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com

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RE: Payments as an answer to spam
by Patrick 16 May '03

16 May '03

> > In the case of micromint I agree, there still has to be a centralised > mint, so one can reasonably make a direct economic comparison with > blind signature based coins or whatever and do the cost benefit > analysis and decide which scheme to use (micromint may be cheaper per > coin after the large initial investment has been recovered); however > with hashcash it's major advantage is that it doesn't require any > infrastructure. > > Having a centralised e-cash bank issuing coins (or a group of banks > with inter-bank clearing) is a highly non-trivial task when you're > talking about micropayments that are expected to be attached to every > email. The volume alone is staggering. And it's not clear what the > > Adam While it's true that some infrastructure is required for a value-based stamp (as opposed to destruction-of-value proof of work stamps), that infrastructure is also useful for many other purposes: the same mints that handle email stamps can also handle bearer instruments for game tokens, site passes, subscriptions, deeds, shares, and good old fashioned loot/money/cash. It also provides an opportunity for a clever entrepreneur to make money by running a self-sustaining service; this financial incentive can be a powerful factor in getting things done. Also, a value-based stamp bought for cash can also be acquired by consumers through side channels. Perhaps an ISP can purchase huge batches at steep discounts and redistribute them to users as a service; they can be given away as promotions; perhaps a spammer or advertiser could throw in email coupons as an incentive to read, or grocery stores could print them on the backs of receipts. As a very-low-value but useful token, it would be a prime target for commercial vectors. Again, a clever entrepreneur can come up with hundreds of angles. I believe that micropayments get stuck in the millicent ghetto because even a few million transactions at low value is probably not worth the effort. But the market for email stamps could be in the billions of transactions per day, and maybe that would be worth the effort. Patrick http://lucrative.thirdhost.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- The Cryptography Mailing List Unsubscribe by sending "unsubscribe cryptography" to majordomo(a)metzdowd.com

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