December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Webpage anti-abortion picketing...
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > > I no more want to slap more spin doctor > output in front of others than to have to look at it myself. I was mainly > trying to make a prediction about the future and then seeing, if reasonable, > how long it took. > > It occurs to me that somebody with the right > motivation might want to claim that they have a right to put a box on such a > backbone (ie stand on the sidewalk in front of the store) and scrape for > particular addresses (ie the business they want to picket). This is precisely why we should fight all efforts of the government to get their foot in the door in regard to control of the internet. I have no doubt that the government will at some point bestow upon some element of the internet a "gift" of funding of some type that they will proclaim is for the public benefit. Their true purpose, naturally, will be to give Joe Grapepicker legal standing to apply to a judge to uphold his "right" to picket the Safeway website. The fact of the matter is, we are currently free to do much as we wish to on the internet. Some call this freedom. Unfortunately, it can also be called "freedom from government interference," which is an anathema to those in power. As long as cypherpunks Timothy McMay and Dimitri Nichols conspire only to promote electronic freedom on the list, then the rest of the decent, law-abiding cypherpunks are probably relatively safe. Should they choose to begin promoting abortion on the list, however, this could change rapidly. (It just occured to me that censorship promoters could be considered to be "Electronic Abortion Activists." Perhaps we need a new censorship ASSociation to be formed, called the EAA, with Jerry Falwell, et al, as its TITular HEADs, and with chapters throughout the CoUNTry.) TruthMonger

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Re: 0,4,11276,00.html?dtn.head
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199706052359.TAA30048(a)yakko.cs.wmich.edu>, on 06/05/97 at 07:59 PM, Damaged Justice <frogfarm(a)yakko.cs.wmich.edu> said: >[36]NASA's Ames Research Center hosted the federal government's > briefing today in hopes of roping in commercial technology partners to > help build the Clinton Administration's three-year, $3 million NGI > initiative. > This is yet another example of the Federal Government interfering with the free market. The govenrment is not needed to *fix* the Internet backbone. If the various labs, schools, ..ect need bigger and faster connections then they need to dig into their pockets and, god forbid, pay for it! I see absolutly no reason why I as joe sixpack taxpayer should have to fund through my tax dollars some multi gigabyte backbone that I am not even allowed to use!!! <sigh> Hopfully the revolution will come in my lifetime. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5dmvI9Co1n+aLhhAQFl3gQAg9OwmnhCgnkjRrq5bIRlaV39ofKterLf 13H47nGxUTI41SOePmwTDAUTlapAPRnPywSCX5J3v4Us/ZRa9KFN7pacqUoQmcnC 3K6Ouc1F3rFiH50zRi3XWkxS7OY3WZAep97s4dd1cXOM74iP6glY8e7psyMdGYbk ML3Vlfgv3nc= =Nvku -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 13:48:59 -0700 > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com> > Subject: Re: Government money, Net picketing, and public fora (fwd) > You're not doing very well. I can see a number of possible meanings: > > 1) You want to be able to "picket" other people's net traffic, > and think that the amount of government funding out there gives you some > standing to force some parts of the net to carry your "picket signs". > And therefore you keep posting similar vigorous assertions, in response > to other people's contentions that this would be bad. You have been paying NO attention at all, no wonder you are having a hard time trying to figure it out. Concentrate now, I DO NOT want to picket anyone for anything at anytime. I have better things to do with my time like spend my money in another store. It HAS been my contention from my original post that I DO NOT think this is a good idea. I am going to decline responding to the remiander of this since it is a waste of my meta-carpal tunnel syndrome. [much inattentive blah deleted] _______________________________________________________________________ | | | Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. | | | | Slovenian Proverb | | | | Jim Choate ravage(a)ssz.com | | The Armadillo Group www.ssz.com | | Austin, Texas, USA 512-451-7087 | |_______________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Who "invented" remailers?
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.1.32.19970605181309.00767c08(a)popd.ix.netcom.com>, on 06/05/97 at 06:13 PM, Bill Stewart <stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com> said: >Suppose, for instance, that the Feds (whatever COINTELPRO calls >themselves these days) are watching Alice the Activist, and find that >she's using Bob's Remailer. So they watch Bob's Remailer, and find it's >sending traffic to Carol(a)foobar.com. Maybe they haven't known about her >before. Or maybe they check with foobar.com and find she's probably Carol >the Commie, who they hadn't previously known used email. No, they can't >prove that Alice sent mail to Carol - but she's still a lead, and since >they're both politically incorrect people, it's not a bad guess. >Even with multiple remailers, say 10, this still works. Well I guess I should let the cat out of the bag, :) I have been working on addressing this very problem. I haven't had time to write a formal paper on this but I can give you some of the basics. It makes use of a stego of sorts. Alice would post a message to a non threating mailing list. In that list certain key words would be misspelled. Carol would use these key words to tell her to look for a certain message posted anonymously & encrypted in a newsgroup (stego in a gif file to a binary group works quite well). Now it would be possiable to track that Alice was sending messages to a remailer there would be no way to track that Carol was receiving these messages. At best it would be know that Carol was a reader of alt.binaries.japan.cartoons or some other non-threating newsgroup. Now this requires both Carol & Alice to be running the same software for generating the spelling stegos and interperting them. It helps if Alice has the reputation of being a very bad speller (ha and you all laughed at my spelling mistakes). The use of a special dictionary that contains common mispellings of common words is a great aid but I have yet to find one in electronic form. An OTP should be generated and used as a seed to the software to keep the two systems in synch. This can be encrypted & stegoed and posted to a pre-selected newsgroup. Once the inital synching of the two systems have been acomplished new pads can be generated and distributed by the same mechanisims. This does not protect Alice from comming under the guns for using a remailer nor does it provide a way for Carol to reply. The anonymous remailers could be completly bypassed and both Carrol and Alice could do all communication through stegoed newsgroup postings. Alos mailing list need not be used but the plaintext messages could be posted via newsgroups. There is a reliabilty issue going this route (from my personal experaince mailing list are more reliable than newsgroups YMMV). The details of applying such a system is more complex but the above gives you the basics of it. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5d+s49Co1n+aLhhAQEwUAP9EzMOcL0c10ZiF6BrbJ6unXTIbXaJ8zIp 7c2wVdcF81HBMbYXkloyCJGfekRpH+hFN6Ga85XHQ3iS/SD4PUykWx/rrGT6y3Ws fzvbQ3ST3IR7VBYqtHb49aNNhcr3yg6S5ecp3IXi49WNxi4A+mLQ80omB/mGSEC2 0PA1fDH3bMA= =wa// -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Traffic Analysis Re: Who "invented" remailers?
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May wrote: > > It all depends on: > > - how many other messages are being received by Lucky and Tim (PGP messages > arriving from remailers, obviously, not just ordinary traffic, though > ordinary traffic helps a bit) A remailer system could have a mechanized procedure for ensuring that those who wished could receive cover mail at certain times no matter what was in the queque. If a message came in that was meant for them, then it would replace the cover message in the queque. Has anyone concerned with remailer development spent any time actually doing remailer traffic analysis, similar to a cryptographer who does cryptanalysis to raise his level of competence? It would be interesting to see the results of messages being sent between cypherpunks and encrypted with a "TA" key so that they could be separated and logged for traffic analysis. I would like to see what kind of results could be divined by those who know remailer operations intimately. Al Gore, ITHM

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BOUNCE cypherpunks@Algebra.COM: Admin request of type /\bcancel\b/i at line 7 Admin request of type
by Igor Chudov ＠ home 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

----- Forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks(a)algebra.com ----- >From owner-cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM Thu Jun 5 22:56:26 1997 From: owner-cypherpunks(a)algebra.com Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706060355.XAA06364(a)www.video-collage.com> To: owner-cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM Subject: BOUNCE cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM: Admin request of type /\bcan-cel\b/i at line 7 Admin request of type /\bcan-cel\b/i at line 9 >From cpunks Thu Jun 5 23:55:48 1997 Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06352 for <cypherpunks(a)algebra.com>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA26788 for cypherpunks-unedited-outgoing; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:36:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhp.com (dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA26783 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 20:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from lucifer@localhost) by dhp.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id XAA23074 for cypherpunks(a)toad.com; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:36:00 -0400 Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 23:36:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199706060336.XAA23074(a)dhp.com> X-Authentication-Warning: dhp.com: lucifer set sender to lucifer(a)dhp.com using -f Subject: Dimitri McVeigh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com From: lucifer(a)dhp.com (lucifer Anonymous Remailer) Comments: Please report misuse of this automated remailing service to <lucifer(a)dhp.com>. Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk Adam Back wrote: > Hallam-Baker <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> writes: > > I'll accept that the ranting faction do some good work but I've > > not seen anything usefull out of either Bell or Vulis unless that > > is you are an FBI agent looking to get a promotion from Freeh. > Dimitri rights code sometimes. He wrote a can-cel-bot. Very > constructive piece of work in an indirect way. See: having nice > freely available can-cel-bots enables technically clueless, would > be-censors to censor more. They censor more, and cause a nuisance for > themselves sending out tons of can-cel messages. This incentivizes > more and more people to ignore can-cels (the trend in news > administration these days I understand is to ignore can-cels entirely), > which means that you can't have your USENET posts censored nearly as > easily. Dimitri has long pushed the envelope of censorship and challenged those who don't like it to do something about it. The reason that Hallam-Baker is able to post thinly veiled "Dimitri is a cocksucker!" messages to the list is because Dimitri refused to lay down and quit when he was forcibly censored for his "Gilmore is a cocksucker!" messages. If the censorship coupe d'etat had succeded, then Hallam-Baker's post would have been trashed into the flames list. Dimitri and others, such as the Freedom-Knights, made it possible to "route around" the censorship of USENET posts to such an extent that any attempt I might make to censor Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri on USENET would have little effect. The bottom line is that Hallam-Baker's demeaning of Dimitri without facing censorship on this list and on USENET is partly the result of the efforts of Dimitri, himself, to fight censorship. This is not surprising, since, after all, Dimitri is a cypherpunk. (Despite all of his claims to the contrary.) TruthMonger ----- End of forwarded message from owner-cypherpunks(a)algebra.com -----

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more GAK crap
by Ariel Glenn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From today's Nando Times... Meeting reportedly will aim to fight obscenity on Internet Copyright 1997 Nando.net Copyright 1997 Agence France-Presse TOKYO (June 6, 1997 11:43 a.m. EDT) - Japan, the United States and European nations will hold an unprecedented ministerial meeting next month to study ways to restrict obscenity on the Internet and regulate electronic commerce, it was reported Friday. The meeting in Bonn July 6-8 will focus on measures to crack down on obscene and violent pictures on the Internet, Jiji Press quoted informed sources as saying. It will also discuss universal criteria for encoding information in electronic commerce to protect private information, Jiji said. Japan will be represented by the posts and telecommunications minister, Hisao Horinouchi, the sources said. ----- Ariel Glenn / AcIS R&D / Columbia University ariel(a)columbia.edu #include <stddisclaimer.h>

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Re: "Clinton has done a great deal for Intel"--more trolling
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <HZZu8D20w165w(a)bwalk.dm.com>, on 06/06/97 at 12:07 AM, dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) said: >Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: >> More trolling from Crispin. Why am I not surprised? >Let's all pledge not to waste any more time responding to KKKent >KKKrispin. >[It worked with SternFUD :-) ] I find Kents posts usefull even though I don't agree with them. He serves a usefull purpors in many respects. 1: He provides a window into the thinkings of the opposition. 2: Replying to his posts help us to form answers to attacks on various positions that members of the list support. 3: Gives us pause to reflect on our positions on various issues (who know he may even be right every now and them <G>). 4: It's no fun preaching to the choir. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5eZkI9Co1n+aLhhAQFQ1gQAtRmQfZkDusGW5XSdep0uPlY9sw4aWAxm ppecGnLtMCsG3wRuzYiRYWbmvHq93Tp9IihhzyEHua6HqrI5kql4cCJDFThwWefW gwYaKliLM7YN5nT3MMoUcfryjZwDxEkcbP/Y6D4f/Y//4yLTCPz28w48t5gdU9q6 Qgq2+u/SguM= =rCXR -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)amaranth.com> > Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:46:16 -0500 > Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd) > Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some > real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the > picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand > and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish. But there is, the publicly funded routers on the publicly funded network which are handling public traffic sitting in nice little queues just waiting to be processed. Perhaps a slightly more complicated setup might make it clearer. Consider that we have some length of fiber laying from Chicago to Salt Lake City. That fiber is fully owned/funded by the federal government. The two routers on the end of the cable are also fully owned. Now from those routers extends another network cable that goes to fully privately owned networks. Now in Salt Lake City there is a young 14 year old girl that just took an at home pregnancy test. It turned up positive and she has pretty much lost it. Now in Chicago there is a webpage for an abortion clinic. Her sister lives in Chicago. The girl gets on her trusty little bit-pusher and proceeds to contact that page from a lookup done in Yahoo. Now at this point her parents still think that what you don't know can't hurt you and her sister has a vistor for a few days that summer. Now ask yourself, does a anti-abortion group have any claim to providing that young girl alternate information that is not pro-abortion? Perhaps this will better exemplify the demarcation I am making. I admit it is a thin line, but that is all it takes. > A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your > picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and > the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point > where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment > rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they > cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has > been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket > analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing. > Either you are blocking the door or you are not Not at all, blocking implies a stoppage NOT a delay. I suggest you sit outside an abortion clinic when the picketers are there. I assure you they are up close and personal. The old ruling of 15ft. seperation was over-turned just this year I believe. It is true that they may not block you but they are allowed to delay your journey slightly with civil coverage. I further belive the court would look at the nature of the Internet and the structure of the web and determine that a single page at the very beginning or perhaps a small splash screen first would not be an unwarranted imposition. I want to make it clear, I am a strict Constitutionalist. I don't see the government having the delegated authority to spend any public money on the Internet, human cloning, BATF, DEA, etc. I believe strongly that such enterprises are best left fully in the state and individuals care. I most definitely believe that were the 9th and 10th Amendment interpreted and used actively we would see a massive decline in government intervention and as a consequence lower taxes. _______________________________________________________________________ | | | Speak the truth, but leave immediately after. | | | | Slovenian Proverb | | | | Jim Choate ravage(a)ssz.com | | The Armadillo Group www.ssz.com | | Austin, Texas, USA 512-451-7087 | |_______________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Webpage picketing (fwd)
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199706060440.XAA08064(a)einstein.ssz.com>, on 06/05/97 at 11:40 PM, Jim Choate <ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com> said: >Forwarded message: >> From: "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)amaranth.com> >> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 97 23:46:16 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Webpage picketing (fwd) >> Well this is why I had wanted to set the analogies aside. There are some >> real diferences between cyberspace and your metaspace analogy of the >> picket line. In cyberspace there is no sidewalk for your picket to stand >> and for me to pay as little or as much attention as I wish. >But there is, the publicly funded routers on the publicly funded network >which are handling public traffic sitting in nice little queues just >waiting to be processed. >Perhaps a slightly more complicated setup might make it clearer. Consider >that we have some length of fiber laying from Chicago to Salt Lake City. >That fiber is fully owned/funded by the federal government. The two >routers on the end of the cable are also fully owned. Now from those >routers extends another network cable that goes to fully privately owned >networks. Now in Salt Lake City there is a young 14 year old girl that >just took an at home pregnancy test. It turned up positive and she has >pretty much lost it. Now in Chicago there is a webpage for an abortion >clinic. Her sister lives in Chicago. The girl gets on her trusty little >bit-pusher and proceeds to contact that page from a lookup done in Yahoo. >Now at this point her parents still think that what you don't know can't >hurt you and her sister has a vistor for a few days that summer. >Now ask yourself, does a anti-abortion group have any claim to providing >that young girl alternate information that is not pro-abortion? Well yes & no. :) Yes they have the same free speech right as anyone else. Do they have the right to force anyone to listen to their speech or force them to distribute it no. They can put up there own web page and if yahoo choses to they can provide links to it (thouhg yahoo is not required to do so). Anyone intrested in listening to what they have to say is free to go to their web site just as anyone is free to go to the abortion site and read that info. The anti-abortion group should not be required to present the views of their opposition and the same for the abortion group. >Perhaps this will better exemplify the demarcation I am making. I admit >it is a thin line, but that is all it takes. >> A more closer analogy between cyberspace and metaspace is that your >> picketors are not standing off to the side but are blocking the door and >> the only way I can enter is to read their signs first. This is the point >> where your picketors have oversteped the bounds of their 1st Amendment >> rights. While the have the right to picket infront of the store they >> cannot interfere with the comming and goings of the customers. The has >> been well tested in the courts. The problem with extending the picket >> analogy to cyberspace is there are no sidewalks. It's all or nothing. >> Either you are blocking the door or you are not >Not at all, blocking implies a stoppage NOT a delay. I suggest you sit >outside an abortion clinic when the picketers are there. I assure you >they are up close and personal. The old ruling of 15ft. seperation was >over-turned just this year I believe. It is true that they may not block >you but they are allowed to delay your journey slightly with civil >coverage. I further belive the court would look at the nature of the >Internet and the structure of the web and determine that a single page at >the very beginning or perhaps a small splash screen first would not be an >unwarranted imposition. Well down here in Pensacola where we like to shoot abortion doctors I beleive that there is a 50' seperation (other side of the street). I don't know how the courts would rule but from past rulling against picketors interfering with the customers of a business I would tend to dissagree. To be honest I am not up on which way the wind is blowing in the courts on this issue. I do feel that the delay is unconstutional. It is where the fine line between your and my 1st amendment rights cross. The size and amount of delay is irrelevant from a constitutional standpoint (can't be a little bit pregnet can't be a little bit unconstitional). This is where are disagreement over the picket analogy rest. Inoreder for the picket analogy to be extended to cyberspace it requires me to download someone's elses speech before I can download the speech that I want to hear. In metaspace there is a sidewalk for the picketers to stand and I can pass them by without slowing down never hearing what they have to say. Here localy I have them well trained, when they see my vette they know not to block the driveway as I will not slow down for them (actually the sound of the 427 is enought to get them moving off to the side). >I want to make it clear, I am a strict Constitutionalist. I don't see the >government having the delegated authority to spend any public money on >the Internet, human cloning, BATF, DEA, etc. I believe strongly that such >enterprises are best left fully in the state and individuals care. I most >definitely believe that were the 9th and 10th Amendment interpreted and >used actively we would see a massive decline in government intervention >and as a consequence lower taxes. Never questioned it. :) - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM5elpY9Co1n+aLhhAQHj2wQAxcypN4AERgmHy1X5aDZI9/vMxKfXiQrG REgPV2inTnatWf05u6QWTyG8FjQecIQCSFyNa3OCjDU17u1vqjN91lvo+K3jtotV f88jkE4OSNzEZVKCZ0FjpWVECvFk1cpKgqQKtH4UFUmf04NDxgQ8nNFXu0cESA16 YchbsjWz7js= =Krwo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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