December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Postcard Debates
by Wilson, Jamie (J.R.) 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If everyone just encrypted their messages then no suspicions would be raised regarding the use of encryption. Most people use envelopes, plain and simple -- and as a result no one questions what they are hiding. It's understood that mail is private and therefore people have a right to seal it in an envelope and not worry about people tampering with it. On the same note, there are federal regulations and penalties (in the U.S. anyway) for tampering with mail and interrupting the delivery of it. The same laws should apply to email. ____________________________________________________ Jamie R. Wilson -----Original Message----- From: Robert Wenzler [mailto:rwenzler@usachoice.com] Sent: Thursday, 10 December, 1998 13:56 To: Mbishop645(a)aol.com Cc: maven(a)weirdness.com; hab(a)gamegirlz.com; Cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Re: Mbishop645(a)aol.com wrote: > > >HaB wrote: > ><snip> > >> That's a good place to begin, though. "Would you send a letter to > >> someone without an envelope?" "Then why not put your email in the > >> electronic equivalent of one?" > >> > >> balance. > > > >Would I send a letter to someone without an envelope? > >One word: postcard. > > Ahh, but would you tape a check for your phone bill to a postcard? Other > than writing a greeting to someone what else do you use a postcard for? No, I would not tape a phone bill check to a postcard. There is the chance for it to fall off. There is different methods of sending mail for different levels of security and functionality. Some people make it obvious what is inside an envelope. (who would not recognize a Christmas card from the envelope?) Others make it as bland and normal as possible to have it go by without much notice. It all depends on how secure you want it. Some things you can do with what amounts to postcard security. What amount of security do you want for your email? Would you be willing to do something extra for that security? This type of question is up to each person. How much risk is the person willing to take. Each person has the responsibility to understand what the risks are and to decide what risks they are willing to take.

4 3

Re: alternative b-money creation
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have to agree with Bill here. It's kind of hard to call something "money" if you can't exchange it for other things which also call themselves "money". ;-). Cheers, Robert Hettinga ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

Test
by Mok-Kong Shen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

please ignore this.

1 0

SSZ had ISDN problems this AM...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Because of the weather change here there was an outage of ISDN connectivity at my ISP. It seems to be back now. No idea if it will return in the next day or so. ____________________________________________________________________ What raises the standard of living may well diminish the quality of life. The Club of Rome The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

1 0

Re: alternative b-money creation
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Bill Stewart writes, regarding Wei Dai's b-money protocol: > It still doesn't solve the fundamental problem with the b-money idea, > which is that there's no reason anybody should want to accept it, > any more than they should want to accept dead-president fiat paper money. > It fixes some symptoms of fiat money, but not the fundamental problem, > because it's still fiat money, just with mathematically interesting > artwork printed on the front. B-money is not fiat money. It is better to think of it as commodity money. Unlike most commodity money, in this case the commodity is not intrinsically valuable. However it is scarce, and more can be created only at a considerable cost. An analogy might be money based on a rare earth element like Terbium (which, let's suppose, has no industrial uses). Terbium based money would be immune to inflation, like gold backed money, but the element is not valuable in itself; it is only valuable for its role as money. This leads to an important difference between b-money and fiat money. The value of b-money is not set by fiat. The value is determined automatically by the workings of the market and the workings of the protocol. There is no centralized agency to make b-money legal tender, or to set its value in terms of other currencies. Most importantly, there is no agency which can issue new b-money, inflating and devaluing the currency. Money is a store of value and a medium of exchange. B-money is admirably suited for these purposes, much better than fiat money. The quantity of b-money in a mature system is, roughly speaking, constant. (The quantity may grow, but it will do so slowly, based on the increased demand for b-money.) B-money is an investment which will hold its value. Because it can be exchanged electronically, it is much more flexible as a medium of exchange than existing forms of money. > One of the big problems with fiat money is that someone who > can get other people to trade it for real goods has an > incentive to print lots of it and acquire a very large share > of the real goods in the economy, leaving the rest of the people > with unredeemable artwork and only able to get their share > of goods by giving the fiatmeister labor or other real goods. > > Wei Dai's b-money proposals reduce the incentive to create > lots of b-money by requiring the creator to burn lots of > valuable CPU time to create the mathematical artwork on the notes, Think of this CPU-burning as the effort to mint or mine new b-money. Like other commodity based money, and unlike fiat money, b-money cannot be printed. New b-money can only be added to the money supply by virtue of expending work. This is what insures that there is no inflation. > In some ways, it's even _worse_ than traditional fiat money, > because creating it uses up CPU time that could otherwise be > calculating things that have value for the rest of the economy, > like optimizing airline routes or circuit-board designs, > or less valuable cool things like rendering bug pictures for movies > or calculating the next Mersenne prime or cracking MongoBank's keys, > or, well, drawing space-war pictures real fast on your Nintendo. You could say the same thing about gold mining, in the days when gold was money. Most gold went into circulation as coins, not adding beauty or value to the economy. Its only utility was as an increase in the money supply. But, of course, adding to the money supply is an important contribution. To have a stable commodity money, it must be costly to create more, and the cost must be "wasteful" in the sense that it is not compensated other than by the monetary value of the newly produced money. Otherwise you will get excessive inflation. It's ironic for people to complain that b-money is inferior, in a world in which fiat money is universal. Once the mathematics of b-money are better established and understood, and once the technical issues are clarified and problems solved, this appears to be a very attractive alternative to fiat money. Unlike commodities such as gold, it can be easily exchanged electronically. And unlike fiat money, it is immune to attempts to manipulate the money supply. B-money could easily attract investment as an inflation-proof store of value. This may be enough to initiate the bootstrapping process. People can buy b-money as a store of value, and once they hold it they will want to be able to spend it. This will lead to a demand for merchants to accept it, and the process has begun.

1 0

Bruce Taylor ed -Reply
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 11:44:05 -0500 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> From: Dan L Burk <BURKDANL(a)SHU.EDU> Subject: Bruce Taylor ed -Reply To: CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM >>> Filtering Facts <burt(a)NORTHWEST.COM> 12/10/98 07:58pm >>> >How is it that you guys all missed the ed. by Bruce Taylor in USA Today >last week? Especially since it contained a plug for me. ;-> Sorry, I probably filtered it out. I've had "Bruce Taylor" in my mental bozofilter ever since he used to work for Charles Keating. The only thing that's changed since then is that (so far as I know) Bruce no longer relies on pilfered S&L funds for his crusades. Now how's that for a filtering fact? ---------------------------- Dan L. Burk Seton Hall University burkdanl(a)shu.edu ---------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

1 0

angel 0.5 released
by Antonomasia 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My website (software page) should have angel 0.5 on it at around midnight (GMT). This is a mail transfer agent intended to operate well with remailers. Progress since the last release is taking the DH key authentication to a different program so that the RSA secion when added will not be in the main server (angeld). RSA authentication of the DH key is still to be added. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ##############################################################

1 0

2nd reposting of a response to Jim Choate (on crypto archives)
by Mok-Kong Shen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Note: There was some technical problem since yesterday to cypherpunks postings, so that my posts to the list didn't result in copies back to me. This morning I reposted these, again without success. An hour ago Igor Chudov informed me that the problem was solved and I have just verified this with a test message. I am therefore reposting once again one of my posts of yesterday here. It is a response to Jim Choate. Please ignore it if you have already seen it. Jim Choate wrote: > > > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > > > We were talking about a site that has to be closed because of (new) > > crypto laws, not technically down which is seldom with modern hardware. > > And also you said that money is no problem! > > You need to go back and re-read what prompted this. Your responce is > completely out of context. > > > Why you care so much about people who voluteer to run sites? They > > certainly know what kind of risks that they probably face, financial > > or otherwise. Do you care your neighbour who opens up a new company > > and do you feel unconditionally have to give him advices?? Are you > > the one who is cleverer than all the others? > > It depends, do I shop there? > > I'm done with this discussion. You want to expect people to put their neck > on the line and you use their services while owning them nothing then wonder > why nobody does it, so be it. Let me ask you some clear questions and please give me also clear answers: If there is some person who is grown up and is not metally ill and who decides to volunteer to put up an archive site of crypto software for the benefit of those who need them, what do you have against that? Any reasonable person who plans to do some business (for profit) certainly well considers the possible risks he might have. For non-profit activities like what we are discussing it is clear that one is much more careful before launching the work. Why do you want to disuade him from doing that? If he fails, that's his fate but you don't loose a cent because of that. If he puts up a site and that has to be closed down after a couple of months because of unforeseen new crypto laws, you at least profit in that short time period of the possibility of downloading from his site and other people also profit from that. If his country has poor economy (inflation, unemployment etc. leading possibly to early depletion of his monetary resources) or bad infrastucture (total breakdown of telecommunication of his country, rendering his site no longer operable) or religion (because he is physically injured by religious fanatics and therefore unable to work), or whatever other reasons than these three that you mentioned, that's all HIS business not YOURS. He, being in his own country, should know all such risks much much better than you! Be happy that because of him you have one more possibilty of obtaining your desired software (during the time his site is operational)! If he ever gets into trouble, it will be fine of you if you will try to help him, through raising funds etc. But you are not obliged to do that. So I don't understand the motivation of your arguing up till now. I would be able to understand if you were working in an authority attempting to strengthen the effects of crypto laws, thus wishing to have as few archive sites in the world as possible, at best none. (Of course, I know absolutely nothing of you. Should I happen to have made here a wrong assumption about your occupation, then I like to offer my sincere apology.) M. K. Shen

1 0

2nd reposting of a response to Enzo Michelangeli (on crypto archives)
by Mok-Kong Shen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Note: There was some technical problem since yesterday to cypherpunks postings, so that my posts to the list didn't result in copies back to me. This morning I reposted these, again without success. An hour ago Igor Chudov informed me that the problem was solved and I have just verified this with a test message. I am therefore reposting once again one of my posts of yesterday here (not exactly identical to the original, being reconstructed from memory). It is a response to Enzo Michelangeli. Please ignore it if you have already seen it. Enzo Michelangeli wrote: > It would be helpful if the list included the approximate size in Mb of each > archive. I'm making arrangements for some mirrors here in Hong Kong, and I > need an estimate of the space needed. I don't know. But a number of years ago I accessed some archive sites of software for processing of Asian languages. From that and the fact that modern disks have become much bigger in capacity and cheaper, I suppose that storage shouldn't be a bottleneck. I like to take the opportunity to mention a non-trivial issue that happens to have refreshed my attention by a reader's letter in a computer journal, namely that software at public archives could be infected by virus. I suppose one should give this potential risk some consideration, since in the present context there could be some third party particularly interested in disrupting the goals of crypto archives. Another point I like to raise is what to archive, i.e. whether only program texts (which are small) or also executable files, and how to let the archive contents be up-to-date. Related to this is whether the archive owner has to fetch everything himself or there is also a directory for uploading by contributors (this is the case with the archives I mentioned above and is sensible for new software and for updates.) M. K. Shen

1 0

Mornington Crescent Explained (was RE: Global Strike to protest Wassenaar)
by Brown, R Ken 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Ben[SMTP:ben@edelweb.fr] wrote, in reply to me replying to Richard Bragg: > >> > Ever played Mornington Crescent? Try the same thing with >> > e-mail. The idea is that only those in the game know "the rules". >> > These rules can change at any time in any way and all >> > "real players" can tell about the new "rules" and adjust accordingly. >> >> showing of course that he either doesn't know the *real* rules of >> Mornington Crescent or else (more likely) doesn't want to reveal them! Oh, >> and this posting quite clearly wins this round - even with the new DLR >> extensions and the Elverson Road footbridge:-) >Ok Ken--you didn't get 'Soccer Moms', now us Yanks don't get 'Mornington >Crescent'. You want to explain to the list? Well, you *did* ask. Don't blame me. It is summed up well at: http://vortex.hawo.stw.uni-erlangen.de/~asheiduk/pgg/06S/06S008.html or, more prosaically, at: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6270/ed_morning.htm Straight from the horse's mouth: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_79000/79273.stm A transcript of an actual game can be found at: http://www.lazarus.demon.co.uk/mc/mc100.html - he also has many other links at: http://www.lazarus.demon.co.uk/mc/mc.html The Encyclopaedia Morningtonia has more detail than anyone in their right brain would want to know about the game at: http://aurora.york.ac.uk/mc_em.html Here are the rules of a slightly different game that Richard may have been thinking of: http://members.xoom.com/mornomic/ruleset.html and http://www.cms.dmu.ac.uk/~c94kd/mornomic/ruleset.txt Ken

1 0