December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

24 Hour CASH Grab is on......$$$$
by Important.News＠mail.impulse.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: A problem with anonymity
by monty.harder＠famend.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

TC> Oh, I agree, of course. Except that the escrow agent need not be a TC> "nonymous" agent, to use Monty's terminology here. Sorry, my Greek is rusty. Shoulda been "onymous", I suppose. But if the escrow agent is anonymous, we simply recurse, moving now to the question of whether anyone can trust the Anonymous Escrow Agency not to take the money and run. TC> (I mention banks because, when you look at it closely, today's banks can TC> quite easily claim that a customer made a withdrawal when he didn't. That TC> they don't says more about the nature of persistent businesses than about TC> any government oversight or security features. This is a side point, but it TC> bears keeping in mind that the real world of banks and businesses, etc., is TC> not fully secure, either. And yet it mostly works pretty well. The reasons TC> for this are interesting to consider.) A bank has $$ invested in impressive-looking buildings, (so that vanishing into the ether and setting up shop elsewhere is rather difficult) and several officers whose TrueNames are registered with the appropriate agencies, so that they may be sued if they pull this crap. While individual stockholders might appreciate the anonymity (and protection from legal action) of owning stock in a bank or escrow agency (might just combine the functions, while we're at it), they demand onymity of the officers with whom they entrust the keys to the corporation. * --- * Monster(a)FAmend.Com *

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Re: A problem with anonymity
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 2:38 AM 9/3/95, MONTY HARDER wrote: > But if the escrow agent is anonymous, we simply recurse, moving now to >the question of whether anyone can trust the Anonymous Escrow Agency not >to take the money and run. Well, at one level, everything is always recursive. But seriously, the reason it differs is that the escrow agents are in the business to be escrow agents, not to take the money and run. This actually works in the real world. (Game-theoretically, they get a certain payoff in defecting, but then forego the revenue stream from future transactions....) And, of course, it is possible to structure things so that the escrow agent cannot "take the money and run," because the money is not accessible to them. This is analogous to an escrow agent in the real world holding a check from Alice to Bob until Bob completes some set of conditions. The escrow agent--call her Essie--cannot cash the check herself. She can of course renege on the deal, even if Bob does his part of the bargain, but there is little incentive for her to do so. One can ask what payoffs and costs/benefits exist for various actions by these agents, and game theory needs to take a look at these sorts of transactions, but there are plenty of reasons to believe "convergence" will occur (basically, that "effectively honest" behavior will be common). >TC> (I mention banks because, when you look at it closely, today's banks can >TC> quite easily claim that a customer made a withdrawal when he didn't. That >TC> they don't says more about the nature of persistent businesses than about >TC> any government oversight or security features. This is a side point, but it >TC> bears keeping in mind that the real world of banks and businesses, etc., is >TC> not fully secure, either. And yet it mostly works pretty well. The reasons >TC> for this are interesting to consider.) > > A bank has $$ invested in impressive-looking buildings, (so that >vanishing into the ether and setting up shop elsewhere is rather >difficult) and several officers whose TrueNames are registered with the >appropriate agencies, so that they may be sued if they pull this >crap. No, my point was that it is fairly easy for any bank to scam any particular customer, given the flaky nature of verification of withdrawals and other transactions (at least for smallish amounts of money). Few banks check signatures, few banks bother to demand much ID, etc. The issue is not whether you can sue Bank of America, but whether you could win. That banks don't often scam customers for small amounts of money is testimony to the fact that they've got a better payoff matrix element in being a bank than the meager payoff in scamming a few customers. I submit this not as proof, but as evidence that the type of "convergence" mentioned above mostly works. Most commerce hinges on this, not because of law enforcement. Like True Names, the threat of law enforcement is only a part of the overall equation. --Tim May ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Copyright Infringement Website / Re: CPAC Quotes Templeton
by nobody＠neva.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: David Downey asks to be shot
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

David Downey wrote: > > Wow, I'm really moving up in the world. Now I've officially been > classified as an enemy of the people. Cool! Where's my award money? Pick it up under the bridge at midnight. Come alone...

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Re: A problem with anonymity
by dsc＠swcp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Having not read the FAQ, I foolishly jump in... Timothy May wrote, >At 2:38 AM 9/3/95, MONTY HARDER wrote: > >> But if the escrow agent is anonymous, we simply recurse, moving now to >>the question of whether anyone can trust the Anonymous Escrow Agency not >>to take the money and run. > >Well, at one level, everything is always recursive. [snip] >And, of course, it is possible to structure things so that the escrow agent >cannot "take the money and run," because the money is not accessible to >them. > >This is analogous to an escrow agent in the real world holding a check from >Alice to Bob until Bob completes some set of conditions. The escrow >agent--call her Essie--cannot cash the check herself. She can of course >renege on the deal, even if Bob does his part of the bargain, but there is >little incentive for her to do so. For example, the money exchanger or bank can allow an exchange option that packages up the new money for some AND/OR list of package openers, certify what it is and then seal it up & send it to the escrow agent. As mentioned by Timothy and Monty this just pushes the question down to whether anyone can trust the bank. Timothy claims evidence that there will be entities such as banks that do not scam customers. I observe that from a few trusted entities a great amount of trust can be created--bubbling up that same recursion. In the above example, the trust of the Anonymous Escrow Agency is increased by the mechanism that does not allow the agency to get at the cash. This uses the trust of the bank, but does not decrease the trust of the bank. Perhaps trust formal transfer mechanisms can evolve so that almost everybody can become almost as trustworthy as the most trustworthy entity in the commerce. Dar (who knows he should have checked the FAQ) =========================================================== Dar Scott Home phone: +1 505 299 9497 Dar Scott Consulting Voice: +1 505 299 5790 <--- 8637 Horacio Place NE Email: darscott(a)aol.com Albuquerque, NM 87111 dsc(a)swcp.com Fax: +1 505 898 6525 http://www.swcp.com/~correspo/DSC/DarScott.html My preference for attached files are in this order: AOL, Mime, Binhex4, PGP, UUencode ===========================================================

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Mailing List Archive
by Jay Campbell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

For personal reasons (my dislike for big mailboxes) I've set up hypermail to archive the Cypherpunks list at: http://got.net/CypherpunksArchive/ If someone else has done this, I'll stop fiddling with the configs and come use yours. I just set it up, so it's rather empty today... If someone has a non-html archive of the messages, I'm up to tossing some perl around and converting it for the archive. -- Jay Campbell - Regional Operations Manager -=-=-=-=-=-=- Sense Networking (Santa Cruz Node) edge(a)you.got.net "Shoot the Fruit Loop" 408.469.9400

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No Subject
by bureau42 Anonymous Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto wrote: > I, for one, am not going to stand by listlessly while fascists > attempt to build an ElectroMagnetic Curtain around me. > I have a byte, and I'm not afraid to use it. > > Toto > "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" > http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix > "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" > http://bureau42.base.org/public/webworld And T.C. May has a *MegaByte*... ByteMonger "Take a MegaByte out of crime--do a denial of service attack on Congress."

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Dumb Question: PGPfone over Appletalk
by Rev. Mark Grant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Can someone tell me how to run PGPfone over Appletalk ? The documentation says that support has been added for this release, and there's a preferences box to check to use it, but there's no information I can find in the documentation on how to initiate a call over Appletalk.. it just says to enter a telephone number to dial. If I press 'Connect' without entering anything it hangs up the Mac. How do I tell it which machine I want to connect to ? Mark "Don't know much about Macs" Grant

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Re: bloodlust or game-theory?
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Kent Crispin finally came to his senses and described government thusly: > > It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared > reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms. The cult > has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code > words refer. The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed > to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society -- > changes that will usher in a new world order. These changes may > involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and > destruction. D.C. and the Pentagon, right? > Certain of the members sport a messiah or a martyr complex. It is > also quite common for cults to call for arming the brethren against > the coming struggle Yes, like Park Rangers with Uzi's, and Postal Service swat teams. > It's all so predictable. As Tim May constantly reminds us, in regard to the cypherpunk list archives. Glad to see that you're coming around, Kent, and finally recognizing the government for the insider cult it has become. KentMonger

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